Community supports imbalance/bad game design?

Every time I see a detailed post here, on Reddit, Discord, or elsewhere talking about the gap in self sustain, I see people clamoring to post "skill issue."

No one is saying all tank jobs should be the same but there is clearly room for adjustment.

The whole point of "wall to wall" is to be as efficient as possible, for the sake of everyone's time (the most valuable of all resources). WAR scales its self sustain/mitigation based on the number of targets, and actively heals itself WHILE contributing AOE damage. This is the most efficient combination possible.

DRK tends to be the opposite. The more targets the worse its tools tend to get (mainly due to the full minute CD on Abyssal Drain), The Blackest Night (while a fun and useful ability) is definitely lacking compared to the WAR equivalent Blood Whetting.

1) It actively takes away from their damage as it competes for MP while also being on a cooldown (unless it breaks, which it frequently won't due to random enemy channel attacks and a short duration).

2) It has a 1-shot 25% health mitigation while the WAR ability has only a slightly longer cooldown, does NOT compete for or cost ANY resources, and can completely fill their health bar multiple times over in AOE.

Putting Abyssal Drain on a 30sec CD would help a little, but not much. Another possible solution would be to modify how TBN behaves when the shield breaks:

1) Have breaking the shield reduce the remaining cooldown on TNB by 10sec and refund half the MP cost. EDIT: Having played this more a CD reduction on TBN from breakage would be marginally useful since gaining enough MP to actually use this would be a challenge. Plus the refund seems convoluted.

EDIT: A better option would be to have breaking TBN reduce the remaining CD time on Carve and Spit & Abyssal Drain by a certain amount (5-10s).

2) Have breaking the shield apply a minor heal over time effect.

EDIT: Sorry this post was really bad before, I was apparently having a really bad day.

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Originally Posted by AlienDiplomat

1) Have breaking the shield reduce the remaining cooldown on TNB by 10sec and refund half the MP cost.

2) Have breaking the shield apply a minor heal over time effect.

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TBN is on a 15 second cooldown and you want to effectively reduce it to 5 seconds? Also, TBN already gives you a free Edge/Flood of Shadow, which is effectively an MP refund of 100%, you just cannot use it on TBN again, which you have no reason to.

How much is a minor heal worth to you?

Really, all you have done is give TBN a regen on break, that is, in no, way going to compete with Bloodwhetting if that was your goal.

WAR Bloodwhetting - 25s CD. 400 potency heal per target hit by any attack. Lets just say there are 5 targets in a small AOE pull not wall to wall. That is a 2000 potency heal per AOE cast for 8 sec. Say you somehow only managed to get off two AOE attacks, which is really, REALLY bad since they have a 2.5s gcd on average and you also have ogcd like Orogeny that can be woven in between casts which will also proc the heal, but just to keep things conservative and simple. That would still be 4000 potency healing every 25s. That is easilly more than a full healthbar of healing (more counting crits). On top of that you get 10% damage reduction (20% for the first 4sec), AND a 400 potency barrier.

DRK The Blackest Night - TBN costs 3000 MP. Even with a 15s CD, you have to actively plan your DPS to balance keeping up Darkside with having at least one charge of TBN available for when it comes up. WAR doesn't need to think about anything.

The ONLY thing TBN does is give you a 25% health barrier. No damage reduction. No healing. NOTHING. IF it breaks (and on 5 targets it frequently won't no matter how much you "calculate"), you get a free cast of your 3000 MP damage skill. Otherwise you are out the MP for a wimpy little 25% shield with no mitigation and no healing.

WAR - Heals full health multiple times, gets active damage reduction, AND a barrier, with NO planning and no resource management. Doesn't rely on timing healer stuns through chat communicating with randos with our 2nd set of hands. Actively contributes to DPS WHILE healing increasing the efficiency of the entire run.

DRK - Gets a wimpy 25% health shield and NOTHING else AND it costs MP. Healers hate you.

Yeah. This is fine. Totally wonderful game design and balance. Let's keep defending it.

Honestly this game has over a dozen DPS jobs, but only one serious tank (WAR), one mid tank (PLD) and a couple lower DPS jobs that can use tank role mitigation and have some gimicky job mechanics that are inferior to WAR in every way.

Lets Break down the differences

War - Damnation 40% Mit + 300 potency Regen 15s, Thrill of battle (which extends HP and healing by 20%) 90s, Bloodwhetting Heal per enemy hit for 400 potency, two 10% mitigations and a small 400 potency barrier 25s, Shake it off 15% shield for everyone a heal and regen, Holm gang 240 cooldown best invul.
Drk - Shadowed Vigil 40% Mit + 1200 Excog 15s, Dark Mind 20% Magic mit 10% physical 60s, Oblation 10% mitigation can target allies 60s two charges, TBN 25% Barrier 3000mp (Refunded if barrier breaks) 15s cooldown, Dark missionary 10% Magic Mitigation 5% Physical for everyone. Important for dungeons only Abyssal Drain - 500 Heal on each enemy hit 60s - Living Dead, Reach 1hp once 1hp heal for 1500 300s cooldown

Both tanks have very strong cooldowns when you break it down, Warrior is better in Dungeons at self healing but dark is ahead in actual mitigation by a long mile, Dark has better DPS then warrior in both AOE and single target, Warriors only real advantages it has over DRK is shorter invul CD and Self healing which in a savage or any hardcore fight self healing loses a lot of value over mitigation, Also tanks in general are insanely broken with how much mitigation and self healing they have across the board ontop of healers own healing and mitigation skills, theirs never really a reason to GCD heal any tank most of the times if your tank knows how to mitigate.

In reality if self healing was very important and dungeons hit hard then yes Warrior would be "over powered" but the fact of the matter is I don't even need to heal a Dark knight much so warriors extra healing value is nothing, Not to defend warriors design It makes no sense why its this self healing monster but the idea that dark knight is a "bad tank" doesn't make any sense Dark knight has insanely strong mitigation value, it's self healing while lacking compared to warrior or paladin is still good enough to get the job done and It's damage when aligned with raid buffs is still unmatched.

In summary warrior op in dungeons yes, but all tanks op in dungeons if you use mitigations right, I've literally never struggled at sustaining myself as a drk in a DT dungeon. The gap doesn't matter when tanks don't really take much damage in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Lets Break down the differences...

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I appreciate the time you took breaking things down. On paper it would seem that while WAR is clearly superior in dungeons which is what 90% of people do most of the time when in groups, DRK does appear to have a lot of general damage reduction tools.

The problem is that in practice, these tools fall very short. You say healers have no problem healing DRK over WAR but in practice this is not my objective experience. Healers frequently complain about healing non-WAR, especially the healers that you are likely to encounter in the majority of content you actually run, if you are like me or most people, which is random queue dungeons and roulettes.

The problem it feels is the devs are balancing either around extreme content only or else by one all-spanning metric of "mitigation in a vacuum" rather than ensuring that each tank has the tools to handle each of the primary scenarios they would be used, as in 1) can MT raids/trials 2) can tank savage content 3) can sustain in the bulk content people actually run where healers aren't premade pals but random players with different skill levels.

What they have done with DRK also feels like a bunch of button bloating bandaids. Like, they added 3 separate buttons for various additional versions of Rampart without any actual unique mechanics to them. It feels half hearted.

The cooldown on Abyssal Drain is WAY too long considering it is a one-shot heal/damage.

TBN granting nothing other than a 25% shield (no mit, no heal) feels extremely flimsy. It doesn't refund the MP if broken either. It just lets you use a free damage ability. So it saves you further MP if you want to throw in a little extra DPS.

I suppose if you are one of the minority whos enjoyment of the game comes from pushing top end difficulty content with a premade group then mathematically DRK may work out, but in my experience and that of a lot of more casual healers I talk to it is much less fun to have a DRK in a dungeon trying to do the big pulls everyone wants.

Can it be done, sure. But part of what makes tanking fun and enjoyable is feeling like you are in control, or at least, that you have the tools you need to carry a group that might be less experienced through roulettes or top level 4-man randoms when heals/DPS are not operating at 100% peak performance with PHD crafted 20-step mathematically perfect opener rotations all mapped out like a cyborg.

In the bulk of content I actually play like a "normal" person (read: casual I guess), I have a lot more fun playing WAR than I do being hyper-focused on just staying alive on DRK. I won't hesitate to W2W on WAR. On DRK I am ALWAYS full of anxiety and doubt and every big pull feels like a tedious balancing act on the edge of a wipe.

Healers say they want more to do, but I can attest to most finding this sort of high-stress high intensity struggle much less fun as well.

How is tanks having unique niches "bad design"?

If I wanted all classes to behave identical, I would not need multiple classes. The whole point having 4 tanks is that in some situations, a Warrior will be better. In others, a Dark Knight. So long as each class has "their moment", this is fine, this is what makes playing each of them feel unique, they have strengths and weaknesses.

You're also still having ChatGPT supply your job information like that other guy did, meaning your information is wrong about the skills you post about. At least get that right, or it makes you sound really weird as you aggressively whine about things that just flat out are not true. I mean everyone can be enraged based on a lie, right?

Also...

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Originally Posted by AlienDiplomat

which is what 90% of people do most of the time when in groups

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Source? I mean you must have one, based on how confidently you state this. Link it!

you're acting like DRK is only workable for the absolute top tier of players but i've never set foot in a synced savage and i tank with it almost exclusively, without issues. it really isn't that dire. hit your TBN after you stop moving at the end of the w2w (why are you stopping at 5 in your hypothetical?), cycle your mits efficiently between TBNs (you can overlap 'big' and 'small' ones, e.g. reprisal with shadow wall, arm's length with rampart, whatever), maybe time your abyssal drain if you feel it's necessary (it does, in fact, get better with more targets!). remember living dead exists and use it (and feel great whenever you time it perfectly!). that is literally all there is to it.

it's a little more effort, i guess, but contrary to your assumption not everyone wants to play a job that "doesn't need to think about anything." DRK isn't bad, WAR just makes you forget how to actually *play tank* without bloodwhetting.

You can live every dungeon boss tank buster with nothing but TBN and Dark Mind or Oblation. If your group has remotely average dps and you use all the big mits on wall to wall pulls, the trash will be dead before you'll need a heal.

I do think it would be healthier for the game if WAR healing in dungeons was toned down a lot, but this:

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Originally Posted by AlienDiplomat

(...) clear superiority of WAR in essentially all content (...)

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Is just LMAO

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Originally Posted by velkettin

you're acting like DRK is only workable for the absolute top tier of players but i've never set foot in a synced savage and i tank with it almost exclusively, without issues. it really isn't that dire. hit your TBN after you stop moving at the end of the w2w (why are you stopping at 5 in your hypothetical?), cycle your mits efficiently between TBNs (you can overlap 'big' and 'small' ones, e.g. reprisal with shadow wall, arm's length with rampart, whatever), maybe time your abyssal drain if you feel it's necessary (it does, in fact, get better with more targets!). remember living dead exists and use it (and feel great whenever you time it perfectly!). that is literally all there is to it.

it's a little more effort, i guess, but contrary to your assumption not everyone wants to play a job that "doesn't need to think about anything." DRK isn't bad, WAR just makes you forget how to actually *play tank* without bloodwhetting.

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I have to agree with the last statement in particular Warrior is only really seen "op in dungeons" because you only really need to use bloodwhetting while other tanks want to actually cycle their mitigations, once you learn how to cycle your mitigations on any other tank you know how to do it on all tanks.

It's funny because Dark Knight post buffs doesn't even fall behind paladin and gunbreaker in terms of AOE sustain as Abyssal Drain now is a full heal, you'll always have every 60s which is bassically once a pull (you also get a excog on your 40%) while PLD/GNB more have slow over time sustain, But all three tanks do not even need healing if you know what to do.

I honestly think OP is also looking it as "well we need to buff Dark knight! healing" when clearly bloodwhetting needs to be nerfed for AOE situations because frankly It makes warrior super boring (at least for me) in AOE situations because it requires zero management.

Ok I have to ask: How much of tanking have you done? I don't mean it as an insult but as you continue to use the tank jobs more and more you learn how each job differs. For me it goes GNB: need ot deal some quick burst damage and a good offchoice if you don't want to use DRK for the <random number> time. DRK: a pretty good defensive (magic yes i know the magic gives phy damage reduction, but still magic defense is higher) and a free shield to give to ANYONE in the party, even on a healer during a stack cause it will break easily so free flood/edge in return for reducing damage a healer takes. WAR: good self healing and great in big dungeon pulls, is the healing on it strong yes, but i'd rathor have a great healign WAR over the StB version who didn't have healing but like storm's path and thrill. PLD: one of my goes to for defences and party utility especially since the 6.3 mini-rework made fight or flight buff its magic damage and requiescat now being instant and magic buff to teh magic rotation. If someone can correct me on the version where WAR was the worse please fact check me

If you go look at any high end raiding statistics you see that Dark Knight is the most represented tank in high end content.

Being mad at WAR for being op in dungeons is like being mad at MCH for being the best DD solo job. Its not really something worth balancing around.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Being mad at WAR for being op in dungeons is like being mad at MCH for being the best DD solo job. Its not really something worth balancing around.

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I'd argue that in the case of WAR, the balancing is screwed enough that it starts encroaching on the enjoyment of everybody else in the party. Other tanks too, mind you, but WAR has been the prime example of this through all types of contents but the content that SE balances around (trial bosses).

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Originally Posted by Valence

I'd argue that in the case of WAR, the balancing is screwed enough that it starts encroaching on the enjoyment of everybody else in the party. Other tanks too, mind you, but WAR has been the prime example of this through all types of contents but the content that SE balances around (trial bosses).

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I think other tanks you can at least argue if they had proper damage scaling and stronger hits to tank the kits themselves wouldn't be a issue, with Warrior it's self healing in AOE situations is so broken that you cannot scale the damage high enough for warrior to even care.

I think this is mostly a gear issue because the item level to these duties are very poorly synched, pull limits ect. Theirs a lot more then just "funny tank self heal op" that plays a part into why tanks feel so strong, Warrior is a exception to this at least in AOE situations.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I'd argue that in the case of WAR, the balancing is screwed enough that it starts encroaching on the enjoyment of everybody else in the party. Other tanks too, mind you, but WAR has been the prime example of this through all types of contents but the content that SE balances around (trial bosses).

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I blame the design of dungeons more than anything else.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I think other tanks you can at least argue if they had proper damage scaling and stronger hits to tank the kits themselves wouldn't be a issue, with Warrior it's self healing in AOE situations is so broken that you cannot scale the damage high enough for warrior to even care.

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This is more of a problem of dungeon design though, being always:

1 pack of 3-5 mobs
1 pack of 3-5 mobs (which can be pulled on top of the above
1 boss

If it could also be any of:

* 1 single mini-boss replacing a pack. (this alone already rebalanced warrior, this single thing!)
* Just a single pack of two enemies, but each one you kill gets replaced, this lasts for 10 enemies total.
* A gauntlet where enemies never stop spawning and in fact become stronger until you reach the next boss room.
* Mixed packs where some enemies cannot be tanked, or one big enemy that needs to be tanked + 2-3 small ones that cannot.
* etc

This'd automatically make Warrior's selfhealing less auto-default-the-best. It's all just about the dungeon design, not the ability differentiation (if anything FFXIV has WAY too little differences of meaningful impact between jobs of a role, we really don't need more homogenization).

And what do you do in the remaining situations where AoE is still there? Unless you want to remove all AoE from dungeons?

Just fix the problem at the source, which is WAR. I have nothing against a self heal that scales through the amount of enemies hit, but at least bring it back to what it used to be: based on damage dealt, where you'd end up one times out of two using it on AoE filler with very diminished returns. Hell, even pvp Bloodwhetting is based on damage dealt..

Even HW DA Abyssal DRK that self healed way more than HW bloodbath WAR was still limited in use by its MP pool...

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Originally Posted by Carighan

This is more of a problem of dungeon design though, being always:

1 pack of 3-5 mobs
1 pack of 3-5 mobs (which can be pulled on top of the above
1 boss

If it could also be any of:

* 1 single mini-boss replacing a pack. (this alone already rebalanced warrior, this single thing!)
* Just a single pack of two enemies, but each one you kill gets replaced, this lasts for 10 enemies total.
* A gauntlet where enemies never stop spawning and in fact become stronger until you reach the next boss room.
* Mixed packs where some enemies cannot be tanked, or one big enemy that needs to be tanked + 2-3 small ones that cannot.
* etc

This'd automatically make Warrior's selfhealing less auto-default-the-best. It's all just about the dungeon design, not the ability differentiation (if anything FFXIV has WAY too little differences of meaningful impact between jobs of a role, we really don't need more homogenization).

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While you do have some good points, theirs still going to ideally be AOE situations and expansions full of old dungeons (they aren't gonna go back and rework them all)

Realistically SE show no interest in making dungeons that much different (nor do i think they care about healer and tank dynamics in those dungeons though alas im crying about it), but the fact is Warrior scales too well In AOE situations, I think it being based off damage at least would be more fair but even then I could see it still be too good.

A last thing is you pointed out FFXIV has way too little differences of meaningful impact and while I agree we "don't need more homogenization" I think there can be some expectations such as Warriors self healing in aoe taking away gameplay from healers where that sort of homogenization does more good then harm and Its not like they can make actual meaningful tank differences and changes though I doubt that they will.

I'd also argue Warrior in general needs other big changes to it, other tanks included so making BW not be this OP skill in AOE situations would only be one change of many I'd make to tanks.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

A last thing is you pointed out FFXIV has way too little differences of meaningful impact and while I agree we "don't need more homogenization" I think there can be some expectations such as Warriors self healing in aoe taking away gameplay from healers where that sort of homogenization does more good then harm and Its not like they can make actual meaningful tank differences and changes though I doubt that they will.

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Sure but like... it shouldn't be able to. Warrior self-healing only lasts like what? 3 GCDs on a 25s CD? If damage intake to us tanks were even remotely comparable to other games, this would not cover us, remotely. We'd have our strong point in these AoE situations, but that'd be about it, and it'd be momentary, one re-upping but still needing constant healing GCDs in-between.

Remember in older MMOs we even had complete heal rotations. Because complete heal in EQ1 casted too slowly, so to keep a tank alive multiple clerics were stagger-casting complete heals constantly so they arrive every 2-3 seconds on the tank.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

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as 25cd that lasts 8s 3-4Gcds depending on timing (so 17s down time without it), is up so frequently that it would be very hard to balance the infinite healing scaling of BW and its short timer, We aren't talking about a cooldown that is on a much longer cooldown... If lets say Damnation had bloodwhettings on hit enemy heal effect instead of BW then it would be fine with me, the problem is that Blood whetting Is up so frequently. Other short cooldowns have strong heal effects but don't fully restore you for its duration.

You also got to think this is in combination with Warriors other absurd healing skills, Shake it off, equilibrium, Thrill, damnation even has it's own heal effect, It's also got a very short cooldown that has no real downside if used with BW timings correctly (vs something like paladins which has a 7ms cooldown). If you made the damage in AOE situations actually high enough where healers would have to pay some attention to a Warrior then other tanks would feel incredibly bad in AOE despite their own mitigation and healing effects, Due to warriors sheer volume of self healing.

I don't really know why your so insistent that warrior Should be able to heal so much in AOE, other then the fact it's "unique to warrior?" It's only really unique in the fact that it uniquely makes warrior feel bad to heal (or play for me because i don't like how it feels in aoe personally), I want actual uniqueness I think rotations are a good start for that but tanks offering different utility and strengths can be nice when balanced well and fair, for example I'd like warrior to have larger max HP and be slightly less about mitigation then the other tanks, I'd love Paladin to have even more stronger party protection and utility, Dark knight to go more onto the magic shields and life steal aspects, GNB being a jack of all trades ect. But I don't think we need to defend bad design for the sake of it being unique in the case of BW In Aoe.

I also don't think ff14 Healers should follow strict healing rotations in dungeons or anything, I want healers to use GCD heals sometimes, but mix in damage and have damaging procs, the key way of seeing this as a reality is too cutdown on tank mitigation and some healing cases, while also removing some of the Healer bloat and in general making gear not super scale peoples mitigative and hp value too much. I haven't played old MMOs so I can't comment too much on it.

The fact is infinite amount of self healing in AOE shouldn't really be on a 25s cooldown (which again is 17s of downtime). Is my core issue with the skill, while it only effects dungeons I think it's still important that healers have things to do.

Because that should be "it's thing". For RPG classes, very strong individual upsides are important. It's what gives character to these classes.

So maybe in AoE trash situations Warriors will reign supreme, by a mile. Instead of nerfing that, and hence making everything homogenous as all that changes is the color painted over the generic class underpinnings that are identical, add equivalently strong upsides to the other tanks. Rotations in fact cannot be this unique thing. They are internal. To an outsider, you're just tanking, taking X damage while dealing Y. The healer healing you could not possibly care any less whether you press 1-2-3-4-5-6 instead of 1-2, 1-2, 1-2.

What matters is whether say, one tank has to first take the damage then rapidly re-heals it (worse against single big hits, better against steady incoming low damage). Whether one can attack fully from range keeping 100% uptime when disenganging for mechanics. Whether one can frequently become briefly invulnerable, ignoring entire mechanics whole. Whether one scales with the damage it takes. Whether one is built around finishers, inherently being better attacks adds that die quickly instead of large bosses, etc etc.

These are things that feel unique on the outside. And yes, this is unbalanced. You cannot balance that. There is no way to do so. The point is to provide a game environment in which each upside can shine often enough so hand-picking your tank for each situation isn't feasible, they're too mixed and varied to do that, even inside say, a single dungeon.
I'm sorry, but the "samey" way jobs are designed in FFXIV is just such a waste. The four tanks are already nearly identical. Their kit has tons of equivalences, and that's just boring. They ought to be entirely different, and yes, that means one will be better at a particular situation. But in return, swapping your tank job feels like an actual change, not just putting a different set of shades on. And right now just about the only real difference that feels different is how Warrior can go ham in dungeons with their healing. Now dungeons shouldn't all be built to promote this (which they are), but the actual mechanism of being supremely good against groups as you can heal yourself on them isn't a bad thing, that's a cool niche! Groups just need to be less common, and enough situations need to be mixed in where whatever unique aspects the other tanks can get in turn can shine!
Of course, I should also add that this does not automatically mean current Warrior healing that isn't damage-based does not need a nerf, but by that I mean a potency/number one. I don't feel it needs a mechanical change, at least not on a basic level. Change the CD, change the numbers, etc. Maybe even go as far as scaling it entirely off of something else, number of hits suffered or so.

(And ignoring that the healer problem cannot be fixed by nerfing Warriors, that problem is absolutely universal and not related to dungeon trash packs, it's a result of the game's unwillingness to deal enough damage to the tank or the group to force the use of actual healing GCDs, nevermind in the majority of GCDs, as in, requiring healing spam)

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Originally Posted by Carighan

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1. You're right that strong upsides are much needed, being against one skill doesn't mean I'm against the idea of jobs having strong upsides, though theirs going to be instances where i genuinely do disagree, theirs still a extent to where a job needs to be balanced and feel good to play with.

2. Rotations are very important to gameplay and should be made unique, they can be a unique thing every tank is builder spender burst they follow the same pattern and while just slapping on a unique rotation and calling it a day isn't the full solution its a Major part in the puzzle on how tanks feel very samey, Why's their no Procs on any tanks? why are there only generic 1, 2, 3's? ect. These things being addressed helps majorly with making tanks feel unique. Healer would also benefit from this because healers deserve similar treatment in gaing actual variance in damaging skills, infact the situation with healers is more dire on that front.

3. You can say tanks can have a equivalently strong upside, but in reality what would that even look like? how would this upside both not matter in high end but also feel strong and unique in the content that makes it equivalently strong, again it just feels like your trying to justify bad design because it's "unique" if Gunbreaker could one shot random dungeon bosses sometimes that would be "unique" but it would blatantly obviously be unique in a bad way, such as Warrior becoming Immortal for 8s in a down time of 17s in AOE situations in inherently a bad design. This isn't just "unbalanced" this is egregiously unbalanced in AOE situations. I even suggested maybe instead of putting the mass AOE on a 25s cooldown, It might be a bit more fair on your 120s that way you get to feel "OP" every 2 minutes for 15s but not be completely immortal and not even need a healer.

4. The problem is both universal and Warrior related, yes we have too much mitigation and tanks not taking enough damage, but the point is even if we fixed that blood whetting would still be a massive outlier and a issue, If we want tanks and healers to feel relative and contribute to helping each other, rather then tanks just doing the healers job.

5. Dungeons are designed in a way that will likely never change It's a even more unrealistic ask for them to change dungeons for the sake of making warrior balanced rather then just not making its AOE as broken. Even if they changed future dungeons Warrior would still be "op" in anything once it gets its short CD to 100.

The way I see it is, you made this conclusion that if your against skills like bloodwhetting you must be pro homogenization, when that's simply not the truth you can be in favour of homogenization for one skill while bringing up the design and uniqueness on different levels. No matter how against homogenization I am if something is that egregious to me I am not going to defend it just for the sake of it.

Oh I should have said that I absolutely feel differentiation in gameplay is also good, but it wouldn't fix the underlying game design issue I think, for that externally-visible differentiations are needed, jobs of a single role need to better or worse in specific situations, with those situations coming up frequently enough to not automatically exclude someone.

A good comparison here is TBC-era WoW, which had its then 3 tanks (4 if you include a very gimmicky fight >.> ) be quite different. One took less damage than the others, which was great, except they were also more vulnerable if you excluded that reduction, and some attacks would bypass it. Which is where another tank came in that was a huuuge HP-sponge, with comparatively little reduction. They cost the healers extra mana, but in turn could survive an increased amount of punishment whatever the source, assuming your healers could stomach the drain. And the third tank excelled in aggro production, which raised the damage cap until the aggro cap was hit in fights with partial threat shedding mechanics, and also trivialized add pickups, which worked well with their increased amount of CC that naturally worked on adds but not the boss itself.

So you ended up with:
* Tank&Spank a boss? Bring a warrior!
* Lots of DoTs and/or other special mechanics? Some druids are bear!
* Adds popping up and need to be handled frequently throughout the fight? Let the pally do that for you!

The issue here is how FFXIV doesn't want to engage with variety. At all. Like you say, you even assume dungeon design will never change, yes, that is the problem. Exactly. Just that it affects everything. Basic encounter design of bosses, trash and dungeons. Classes. Basic fight mechanics. An utter unwillingness to finally hit Ctrl+A -> Delete on a whole subsystem, and accept it needs to be trashed and re-done. Self-reinvention is something FFXIV needs desperately.

And like I said, I'm not saying Bloodwhetting wouldn't need changes. I just would not want to see the aspect "Yo, against a pack of mobs I heal myself, kthxbai" removed. Rebalanced or modified to trigger of a different scaling metric, sure. But the net result of being the best-surviving tank whenever there's multiple targets to heal is interesting, and should be encouraged. And I say this as someone who plays 3 out of 4 tank classes, excluding Warrior. I got no stake in this.

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your comments as wanting to remove (not just rebalance) this aspect.

do you even play tanks?

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Originally Posted by theunhappypotato

do you even play tanks?

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OP? Most likely not, given the weird factual mistakes. It's like those four threads someone clearly had ChatGPT generate, seems to be a common thing now.

tell me you want to erase healer without saying it x)

Are we talking about DRK in dungeons or DRK in raids?

For the most part in raids DRK is fine and this is coming from someone who MT as DRK in the recent raid tier.

Even in expert dungeons DRK is fine. DRK healing imbalance is the leveling side and devs do not care about leveling, look how long it took for them to change the tank aoe's to earlier levels.

DRK has the most self mitigation out of all the tanks. This is only a problem when your healer is dead or if your healer is bad. We dont want DRK to be like Warrior. We want DRK to be a unique version of itself