party finder

Sorry for what probably is a waste of a post, but after sitting at my pc for 9 hours (already cleared the tier multiple times since may - just need to establish this) I'm just absolutely exhausted, and I remember all of the years I've played, party finder has always sent my blood pressure up and spiraled me into staying up way late at night for a clear that I arguably should have got many hours prior as planned. I never got a clear that I badly wanted until far too late at night, to my own detriment.

Besides stating the obvious about how woeful pf is, I just want to express that it is so bad that I'm not sure exactly how anybody on their own outside of a premade group can make it through. I'm currently just solo dolo out there queueing pf (because I just can, that's why) and even after spending a whole day helping people, seeing them make progress, and sharing some joys with others, being thanked (need to establish this also, so people don't assume falsely like they normally do online that the one typing is the one wiping), that literally it's just mind blowing how difficult it is to get anything done in party finder as far as a clear is concerned for anyone who either hasn't cleared yet and only qualifies for duty completion or practice groups or already has cleared for the week (me) and just cannot join 2 chest groups. For myself, i havent dpsed in four years on this game, so I have been enjoying ninja, and I've been absolutely tearing it up! But just for fun, i decided since over 9 hours ago that I wanted a clear on ninja on one of the more difficult fights that has been hanging people up, and it has been mission impossible, so take it from me, someone who does know what they are doing, it is ABSOLUTELY HORRIFYING the sheer unexpected randomness that comes in party finder, and the types of fails are so extreme and varying that you cannot even foresee how someone is going to mess something up next. Even in groups that gave me great confidence that we would clear, someone still would leave too early after a mess-up, sending me back to spend another hour or longer in party finder waiting for a fill.

What's the point?

how can anybody new to the game and confident in their skills get a clear in current conditions on their own without a group if someone like me who has been in groups/statics and has cleared already cannot do so solo in pf after a week of agony like this and seldom if ever making a mistake to cause a wipe.

this is atrocious. Something needs to be done, and I don't mean we need to ruin the game or make new rules about stuff... but what??? Party finder is harrowing, and I've got a LOT of patience, but it's something we all say, but I'm not sure anybody knows what we can do about it. It needs to exist for a reason, but it shouldn't be disastrous 100% of the time.

ok back to pf

The only thing they really could do is to make it easier. Which wouldn't bother me, since I'm alright with Extreme difficulty. But some people will accept nothing less than Ultimate level hence why we have that.

However, PF has always felt like this in many tiers and it largely is due to factors such as:

• Grossly undergeared players, for example that didn't even get crafted gear level yet.
• Newer players that don't fully understand what snapshotting is.
• New tanks who even after years of simplifications still struggle with such things as mit, positioning and even using Provoke at the end of the cast instead of the start.
• Struggle with their position changing every single party, which requires rewriting your memory up to this point. Which requires imagining yourself having gone through the fight in a completely different position with a different perspective.
• Not being used to the strats everyone is using, especially if you did it in a static that used custom ones or strats suited more for statics.
• Not being used to eachother's habits. This is a big one. 33% of the time I'm on the same wavelength as my co-tank, 33% of the time they are on a completely different planet and don't know what they are doing, 33% of the time it's sorta in between not on same wavelength but workable. Healers are similar where eachother are used to carrying more or less % of the healing burden than the other, so one party you're suddenly seeing people die lots because they expect you to do all the healing.
• Being extraordinarily tired from work, such that the performance is not great. Or may not have eaten well for the necessary focus and energy that Savage demands.
• Slow rate of learning or progression in general, since everyone learns at different speeds.
• It's easier to clear when the other 7 have already cleared, compared to a party consistent entirely of fresh players, making a night and day difference in how difficult the exact same raid feels. Often you can be reclearing a fight and think "this is so trivial" yet it was the complete opposite when you were progging it or if you join a fresh prog party. It's why the reward structure should resemble something like Chaotic so it encourages you to help others clear.

Playing with randoms nets random results.
More news at eleven.

Unfortunately such is the state of the game. Now you can blame this on "it's randoms so of course it happens". While true, it wouldn't happen so frequently if the game wasn't dumbed down to the level of summoner. The whole uninspired gameplay means that people rather not care what they and would rather be afk than play some content. In some other games this doesn't happen mind you. Some will turn auto-bots that will do duties for you and then fail because they missed a plugin or a setting. Yeah they do this.

There are even bigger issues currently now for most data centers. Even light now struggles to find PF for various content. Try doing some mount unsync for Eden and you'll almost never gather people. People can't finish their MSQ because trials have 3+ hours of waiting time. Just tells it all.

Half of PF is filled with useless promotions, gamba and RMT. Also God forbids you to post your pf somewhere in the crowd or in novice chat to ask for help. You'll get a backlash from mentors who are 24/7 afk erp-ing.

It's never a wasted post to constructively criticize part of the game that you want improved.

I cleared the first tier fairly easily, but I did have to pay a few million to mercs to get M4S cleared. After getting the clears the reclears are easy and fun in PF. The problem is they lump everyone together in prog while there is a minimum requirement for reclears. When I started clearing this tier in PF, Dancing Green was ok, but M6S (I forget Lalapainter's name now) was a curse for me. It took me over 100 pulls to clear the Adds phase. I knew what my roll expected of me. One random night I chanced upon a group that all knew what they were doing and we cleared Adds over half a dozen times, in fact I don't remember failing the adds phase on any pull and progged a lot of the second half of the fight. After that night I confirmed that I knew what I was supposed to do for Adds and immediately quit progging the tier. PF is a lootbox for progging: you hope to get people at similar prog points but the content is too hard to prog with random people without investing in an obnoxious amount of time that I've learned for me needs to be spent having fun elsewhere. Until there is a Hard Raid version of the fight that needs to be cleared before you can advance into Savage or there is an in-game system that tracks your progress and DPS during prog that grades you or they just allow everyone to play on an equal gear footing by tuning the fights to the release day ilvls, I'm done wasting my time.

Are you doing prog parties or Duty Complete parties? M6S has been pretty hellish in PF if that's the fight you mean. So many bridge or lava parties that just become adds prog parties. Jeeq gave a pretty good list of the various issues. I can comment on the healer one since I'm healing this tier. Sometimes it takes a pull or two to get used to what your co-healer is using where, especially if you're a shield healer like me and the pure healer isn't topping people off where it's needed. I end up having to adjust to using my Ixachole or Pneuma in places I wouldn't with other pure healers or we wipe.

Like Jeeq, I don't know what SE can do besides adjust the difficulty. Last tier didn't have quite as big of a wall like this. M2S was bad in PF for a bit, but we all managed to muddle through it. And for as much as I curse M6S, I actually do enjoy the idea of incorporating adds and having a different mechanic for the party to contend with.

If you're talking community, not sure what to do there, either. We put prog points in the PF listing. And sometimes someone can even be at that prog point but they just have an off night or one of the others they're with is lacking or accidents happen. I can't tell you how many tanks I've just healed only to watch them instantly die in adds phase, because they got a cat vuln or a puddle vuln. I think a lot is just the nature of PF.

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Originally Posted by Gwenkatsu

Playing with randoms nets random results.
More news at eleven.

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And while we are at it, can we get rid of these people trying these one-liners? Look at the comments where people have commented in depth, while some hurry to try to aim for an earlier comment as quick as possible to come up with a quick quip in hopes to get upvotes, and for the people who actually do upvote? Even worse...

Actually, you're wrong. It's not random. If it were random, it wouldn't have taken 10 and a half hours to clear with the method i was describing. The issue exists and is being commented on by people who understand it. The issue is as stated, and your comment (pretentious smear, actually) is false. It is consistent - not random.

I would just adjust my expectations, PF can get very frustrating especially later in the tier. I like to hop in C41s after getting my BiS to help people out, and it's less of going through the motions and more help my community somehow.

PF is a tough subject to breach, because there are some hard pills to swallow. I think the first thing to do when talking about it is to take a step back and remember that PF is a privilege we haven't always had. Until 3.5, there was no cross-world party. Statics were expected for savage content. While it is a good thing that is no longer the case, it is a give and take. The lower they make the barrier for entry, the more people that can join in on PF. The more people trying PF, the lower the consistency will be.

Even something like making players defeat the Stone, Sky, Sea dummy for a high end fight before being able to enter denies that player the ability to try out hard content before being forced to put a lot of time and resources into something they don't even know they'll like. It makes it so that groups who want to show their new friend what savage is like can't just queue them in. It comes with a lot of costs. In fact, they did force a dps check in the HW savages and everybody hated it.

Even if the reason you can't get a static is due to time constraints, that can hurt your PF experience as well. Getting reclears on Tuesday is a vastly different experience than doing reclears on Monday. As much as it stinks, you have to accept that if you don't have the ability or willingness to find a static for hard content, you are going to suffer more to get clears. It is miserable to be the player who can do the mechanics waiting on everyone else, but that is precisely the price you pay for not joining a group of similarly skilled individuals in a static.

The one thing I will say they could improve is the PF party filling. I know some of it has to do with groups of less than 8 players wanting to play together, but it is a tragedy to see dozens of groups stuck in PF because they are all fighting each other for the last one or two fills they need.

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Originally Posted by b3nzyme

And while we are at it, can we get rid of these people trying these one-liners? Look at the comments where people have commented in depth, while some hurry to try to aim for an earlier comment as quick as possible to come up with a quick quip in hopes to get upvotes, and for the people who actually do upvote? Even worse...

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some people dont have time to spend hours with typing essays, lol
The one-liner nailed it tho. If you dont want randomness, join a static.

Static = static outcomes
Randoms = random outcomes

btw, on jp dc people use pf for progging and df for clearing :)

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Originally Posted by b3nzyme

And while we are at it, can we get rid of these people trying these one-liners?

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Never going to happen, honey.

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Originally Posted by b3nzyme

how can anybody new to the game and confident in their skills get a clear in current conditions on their own without a group if someone like me who has been in groups/statics and has cleared already cannot do so solo in pf after a week of agony like this and seldom if ever making a mistake to cause a wipe.

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Well, I've had the most success doing reclears ASAP on tuesdays - and generally when a new tier comes out I throw myself at it on PF until I get it all done.
Every day that passes for reclears in particular, the general competency expectation drops, and this continues as the tier gets later and later into the patch cycle, since you're left with the majority of people that haven't cleared still.
With PF you are at the mercy of the random party members you get, so it's better to network with the *good* players you've met on PF which means you can at least try to play again together for prog/reclears.

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

some people dont have time to spend hours with typing essays, lol
The one-liner nailed it tho. If you dont want randomness, join a static.

Static = static outcomes
Randoms = random outcomes

btw, on jp dc people use pf for progging and df for clearing :)

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Nah. It didn't "nail" it. It was just as oblivious and tone-deaf as I pointed out.

1. No one else here is spending hours typing essays. Your exaggeration is blatant. If they don't have time to spend engaging, get out.

2. If he, you, or anyone would have looked me up, you could easily see that ive been in statics and after clearing, pf'ed on my own time. The only ones who can't seem to understand the topic must be those who themselves dont participate in statics to see those outcomes are random as well. Everyone here sees that pf is consistent, but consistently bad except maybe some who (as mentioned) are oblivious and probably play like that as well.

3. You said i didnt want random outcomes. Apparently, the topic is about consistently bad outcomes, and it went right over the pea-brained, oops, i mean "one-liner-brained" heads. Try again

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Originally Posted by Sunhwapark

Well, I've had the most success doing reclears ASAP on tuesdays - and generally when a new tier comes out I throw myself at it on PF until I get it all done.
Every day that passes for reclears in particular, the general competency expectation drops, and this continues as the tier gets later and later into the patch cycle, since you're left with the majority of people that haven't cleared still.
With PF you are at the mercy of the random party members you get, so it's better to network with the *good* players you've met on PF which means you can at least try to play again together for prog/reclears.

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Yea i did my reclears tuesday and went in to do any-chest reclears, and after spending all of that time in pf feeling bad for the majority of players still stuck in there, decided to say what everyone is thinking but nobody really states out of fear of being called toxic or something silly

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Originally Posted by b3nzyme

Yea i did my reclears tuesday and went in to do any-chest reclears, and after spending all of that time in pf feeling bad for the majority of players still stuck in there, decided to say what everyone is thinking but nobody really states out of fear of being called toxic or something silly

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Like you did at the beginning of your first post, I am going to preface this. I am legitimately interested in trying to help, and not very interested in getting into a flame war (do the kids still use that phrase?), so I apologize if anything below stings, but I need to make a few points.

From what I can see of the posts you've made, this isn't your first rodeo. You know that PF makes your blood boil. You know that statics are better than PF, and were even in one this tier. You know that clearing on Tuesday is important for avoiding as many memes as possible. You know that reclearing is harder near the end of the patch cycle. You know that with no ultimate, any good players that might have still been wandering PF to gear their 2nd or 3rd jobs aren't bothering. Yet, a week before the new patch, you went into PF for enough time to make almost anyone go insane on, what, A Monday?

I'm not one to make quippy one-liners like, "Veteran high-end player does everything wrong in PF. Complains.", but this does appear to be self-inflicted. Even your jabs about how the problem with PF is that it is consistently poor dig a deeper hole. You knew the experience would likely be bad, that you would likely crash out if it was bad enough, and you did it anyway. Surely, you already have everything from this tier, so the question becomes, "why?"

If you're doing it for the love of high-end content, you're doing it in a way that burns you out. I went onto a discord after burning out on current content PF and found a group that wanted to do old savage tiers at MINE. It was awesome. They kept me playing and doing high-end content I never would have gotten to do otherwise. In turn, that refueled me enough to return to PF with a healthier mindset. No one can change what PF is, but you can change how you interact with it.

Honestly doing PF with randoms helps me learn new extremes easier then with a group and failing however many times. PLus 99% of PF i get in learning party we all meme and screw around while doing the content. Its like gambling i keep coming back

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Originally Posted by b3nzyme

Nah. It didn't "nail" it. It was just as oblivious and tone-deaf as I pointed out.

1. No one else here is spending hours typing essays. Your exaggeration is blatant. If they don't have time to spend engaging, get out.

2. If he, you, or anyone would have looked me up, you could easily see that ive been in statics and after clearing, pf'ed on my own time. The only ones who can't seem to understand the topic must be those who themselves dont participate in statics to see those outcomes are random as well. Everyone here sees that pf is consistent, but consistently bad except maybe some who (as mentioned) are oblivious and probably play like that as well.

3. You said i didnt want random outcomes. Apparently, the topic is about consistently bad outcomes, and it went right over the pea-brained, oops, i mean "one-liner-brained" heads. Try again

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I'm starting to suspect there are soft-skill issues scuppering your success in PF.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I'm starting to suspect there are soft-skill issues scuppering your success in PF.

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I think B3nzyme was probably still just irritated from wishing PF was better (who doesn't?), and brought some of that with them to the forums. I took their advice about looking them up and went through some of their past forum posts, and it was actually kind of neat. Along with some random posts here and there, I got a little story, first them getting blindsided by the 1 per week loot rules in alliance raids and asking about raiding lingo and how to deal with mechanics while they were getting into the game. There were some posts appreciating people who had helped them on the forums, and a few posts claiming they would become a strong player at this game in time (which obviously happened), and even some attempts at de-escalation on posts that exploded, eventually getting to this burnout post here.

It's not hard to understand why they would come to this forum that has helped them in the past, seek that help again, and then be irritated when met with a cynical, unhelpful quip at their expense. Could the response have been better? Sure. I think choosing to engage with the helpful people and just ignore the chaff is usually correct, but when you're fried that can be hard to do. Every community has its problems, but this is the one we've got. We should make the most of it.

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Originally Posted by Starrya

I think B3nzyme was probably still just irritated from wishing PF was better (who doesn't?), and brought some of that with them to the forums. I took their advice about looking them up and went through some of their past forum posts, and it was actually kind of neat. Along with some random posts here and there, I got a little story, first them getting blindsided by the 1 per week loot rules in alliance raids and asking about raiding lingo and how to deal with mechanics while they were getting into the game. There were some posts appreciating people who had helped them on the forums, and a few posts claiming they would become a strong player at this game in time (which obviously happened), and even some attempts at de-escalation on posts that exploded, eventually getting to this burnout post here.

It's not hard to understand why they would come to this forum that has helped them in the past, seek that help again, and then be irritated when met with a cynical, unhelpful quip at their expense. Could the response have been better? Sure. I think choosing to engage with the helpful people and just ignore the chaff is usually correct, but when you're fried that can be hard to do. Every community has its problems, but this is the one we've got. We should make the most of it.

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All very fair. My broader point is that PF is not the easiest place to thrive if one has something of a short fuse.

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Originally Posted by Gwenkatsu

Playing with randoms nets random results.
More news at eleven.

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I thought that news came at twelve ? Bugger me ! I am one hour late :(

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Originally Posted by Starrya

... It's not hard to understand why they would come to this forum that has helped them in the past, seek that help again, and then be irritated when met with a cynical, unhelpful quip at their expense. ...

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You read through all their past posts (creepy) but didn't reread their original post of this thread where they stated they were not seeking help but were expressing their feelings about a game mode only to be met with 'help' from those who didn't get their point. Literacy issues. Let me summarize for you: "Dear SE: as an experienced player I find the state of PF and Savage insufficient for new players (that are not me) from enjoying FFXIV to their fullest potential. Consider making changes, without deleting the existing Savage mode content, so others can more healthily improve themselves and advance into harder content." This type of criticism is the very kind of thing that YoshiP has stated is good for the game because it means players still care and his recent comments suggest such comments are helping him come around to the idea of better difficulty graduations.

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Originally Posted by Hastatus

You read through all their past posts (creepy) but didn't reread their original post of this thread where they stated they were not seeking help but were expressing their feelings about a game mode only to be met with 'help' from those who didn't get their point...

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They obviously don't need help clearing fights, or even getting clears in PF, but part of their post also says that they get caught in the pseudo gambler's fallacy of PF, wind up going for way too long and get frustrated. As someone who has done that before, that's the part that stuck out to me.

I agree that their point is valid and good for the game. I too wish PF was better. Especially for players new to high-end content, it gives a lackluster first impression. My first post was even talking about how it is difficult to make changes to PF that increase the quality of PF without omitting the very demographic of less experienced players they are championing.

Getting back on subject, I'm sure there are ways to make PF better, but they probably involve areas of the game outside of PF. The mentor system doesn't really encourage teaching new players the ropes, the guildhests are outdated and give comically bad rewards, hall of the novice is optional and still has no version designed to prepare players for high-end content, and the only part of high-end content they do have a good system for is obscure. Stone, Sky, Sea is easy to miss. Basically, the only way to see difficulty of that level is to join high-end content, and the only way to do that is to use PF or find a group. Suddenly, inexperienced players are thrown into a fight where they have to juggle too many things they've never had to do before all at the same time. They have to learn their rotation, learn how to mit, learn how to get uptime, learn what clock spots are, adjust to the speed of incoming information, have better positioning, read their debuffs, check the timers, etc.

There is just very little between story mode and high-end content that lets a player learn one of those things at a time, even if they were willing to.