PLD v WAR Re-Balancing in A Realm Reborn / 2.0?

Hi Devs =)

Fantastic job on all the updates and I am super stoked to play 2.0. Top-Class performance in resurrecting the current game and as a long time FF and MMO fan, A Relam Reborn / 2.0 is looking to be the greatest game ever.

That said, in the most recent Letter from the Producer, it was stated that Job Actions and Abilities will be changed in 2.0.

I would really love some clarification/verification about this. I play as a tank main, and while PLD is my favorite job, I have been playing WAR almost exclusively. I think Its just better in almost every regard.

So after much debate I set my sights on the Relic Axe (Bravura). I am about to drop more gil than I have ever spent before, anticipating that WAR will continue to be superior to PLD the way it is now, in my opinion.

However, with the latest letter saying Job Actions will be changed, I am hesitant. Can a dev or rep please just confirm that Job Actions for these classes WILL be changed in 2.0?

I Choose WAR for Antagonize, Collusion, enhanced Provoke, Vengeance, and of course greater dmg and HP. If it turns out that PLD will have equivalent abilities, Im definitely going to re-think which relic I choose.

I would love for you to tell me that PLD will have abilities that increase enmity generated (Antagonize), absorb Enmity from other party members (Collusion), or something of the sort (Not the bonus to dmg enmity like Sentinel).

I will be satisfied if you at least confirm that Job Abilities and Class Actions will be changed for WAR and PLD in 2.0.

Thx =) Keep up the great work!

From the video that's floating around out there it looks like classes might be undergoing some pretty drastic changes (though it could have been just some pre-alpha debugging stuff). That said, right now I don't really see a reason to use warrior on a lot of things. It's good on Garuda, Ifrit, and Myrmidon Princess, but for everything else I think paladin is equal or better. I can't really see a warrior ever tanking Ifrit Extreme (if anyone has a video of this I'd love to see it though) or Nael Deus Darnus hard mode. Paladin's also better on Chimera.

Warrior is great for stuff like strongholds and soloing, but paladin has a lot of tools that help on weak stuff as well. Cover, Holy Succor, Shield Bash, and Rampart are all great.

Also regarding your relic choice, if you're only going for 1 you should choose the one for the class you want to play most. I think paladin is a lot better than warrior on current content, but there should be a much greater variety of content in 2.0, so going off of current balance probably won't work even if they don't change actions.


I agree with this guy
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Different strokes for different folks I guess. I prefer Paladin in single target encounters, but if lots of AOE or more damage for a speed run is needed, that's when I tend to play Warrior.

Just my opinion, but if you prefer one class over the other, that's the one you should focus on for your relic. Each tank has their niches but as of right now I would say neither is significantly better than the other. Paladin was my favorite job in FFXI so it's my preference to play it when it's not more beneficial to play Warrior.

Ifrit Extreme with War tank. I would like to see a video of that :]

My only real concern with the direction things are going is that while PLD is the choice for many single target encounters, Warriors are capable of doing the same encounters even if they aren't ideal. I think the only real exception is Ifrit Extreme but that also just seems to be a matter of gear at this point. That's because WAR has all of the tools to fill the single tank role and deficiencies can eventually be made up by gear.

On the other hand PLD simply cannot fill the role of tank in much of the multi-target content and this isn't something that can be overcome by gear because PLD lacks the proper tools.

They aren't going to succeed with two tanks in the game by trying to carve out a niche for each one, especially if one can encroach on the niche of the other by acquiring enough gear. The two jobs are going to need the tools to do everything the other can or you will always see one job favored over the other.

For PLD I don't see why they can't just open up the -ra spells to GLA/PLD. We aren't going to be able to compete with the casters in damage with it considering the lower MP pool and not having much in the way of magic potency gear. But it would really help fill the Steel Cyclone gap in situations where mutli-target damage and enmity are a concern and give us the tools needed to actually do the content even if we are not the ideal class, similar to the warrior situation with single target content.

Well, I think the majority of "hard" content in ARR is going to be 24 man stuff, so I think you're going to see content that requires 3 tanks in some capacity or another. There will probably be room for both tanks in these encounters.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

On the other hand PLD simply cannot fill the role of tank in much of the multi-target content and this isn't something that can be overcome by gear because PLD lacks the proper tools.

They aren't going to succeed with two tanks in the game by trying to carve out a niche for each one, especially if one can encroach on the niche of the other by acquiring enough gear. The two jobs are going to need the tools to do everything the other can or you will always see one job favored over the other.

For PLD I don't see why they can't just open up the -ra spells to GLA/PLD. We aren't going to be able to compete with the casters in damage with it considering the lower MP pool and not having much in the way of magic potency gear. But it would really help fill the Steel Cyclone gap in situations where mutli-target damage and enmity are a concern and give us the tools needed to actually do the content even if we are not the ideal class, similar to the warrior situation with single target content.

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Circle Slash and a shorter cooldown on Wardrum would most likely be more than enough. If you want to go all out crazy, then also add a weapon skill like Judgment Blade or Lightning Stab (from FF Tactics) that hits multiple targets in front of the PLD.

I'm looking forward to details on how classes will change and how that will define job balance as we get closer to 2.0. We know there's going to be changes to abilities, but it'd be nice to get a peek at the big picture.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Circle Slash and a shorter cooldown on Wardrum would most likely be more than enough. If you want to go all out crazy, then also add a weapon skill like Judgment Blade or Lightning Stab (from FF Tactics) that hits multiple targets in front of the PLD.

I'm looking forward to details on how classes will change and how that will define job balance as we get closer to 2.0. We know there's going to be changes to abilities, but it'd be nice to get a peek at the big picture.

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I'm hoping for Stasis Sword.

But really, PLD with Holy Swordsman WS's, or a Holy Swordsman Job class with HS WS's. Holy !$@$!@$@$ f yeah.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

I'm hoping for Stasis Sword.

But really, PLD with Holy Swordsman WS's, or a Holy Swordsman Job class with HS WS's. Holy !$@$!@$@$ f yeah.

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I rather have pld stay the tank and saviour if u will, would be better to have a job that's sword saint doing holy swordsman abilities and being a pure dd. Not pld having those abilities.

If WAR can tank on par with PLD, even if they don't aim for the same type of target, PLD should be on par with WAR for damage output.
So, better WS is justified. Since we know that DPS is used for calculating WS damage, and DPS is really close when you look at the weapons, the conclusion is that Sword WS modifiers are crap.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If WAR can tank on par with PLD, even if they don't aim for the same type of target, PLD should be on par with WAR for damage output.
So, better WS is justified. Since we know that DPS is used for calculating WS damage, and DPS is really close when you look at the weapons, the conclusion is that Sword WS modifiers are crap.

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Goring Blade, Riot Blade, Rage of Halone, Spirits Within all do pretty decent damage.
Flat Blade Combo generates 5.5x Damage dealt into Enmity
Spirits Within Combo generates 2.5x Damage dealt into Enmity

More than DPS is used to calculate Enmity Generation.

I think it would be awesome if we could get some of the classic skills as AE weaponskills solutions. Though the only reason I suggested a magic solution was that I feel my TP demand is pretty stretched already and I never seem to have enough where I can't seem to find much opportunity to use my MP pool.

That might change in 2.0 with what we are seeing in TP changes so far. Or creating some kind of hybrid weaponskills that require a little bit of TP and a good amount of MP to use could be interesting as well.

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Originally Posted by stanleyyoung

I rather have pld stay the tank and saviour if u will, would be better to have a job that's sword saint doing holy swordsman abilities and being a pure dd. Not pld having those abilities.

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Considering that to most Holy Knight = Paladin...

I'm not entirely against giving GLA a third possible job aside from PLD and DRK that uses holy swordskills. Was more trying to fill the lack of a frontal AoE attack that PLD currently lacks.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Goring Blade, Riot Blade, Rage of Halone, Spirits Within all do pretty decent damage.
Flat Blade Combo generates 5.5x Damage dealt into Enmity
Spirits Within Combo generates 2.5x Damage dealt into Enmity

More than DPS is used to calculate Enmity Generation.

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I think alot of PLD's underestimate keeping Fast Blade >>> Flat Blade on cool down. Stack mind and I think you will find this combo dose wonders for enmity, Also been testing practicality of having party run close enough to tank to recive "Rampart" as another way to generate hate, when possable , Rampart is by far, PLD's strongest hate tool, super long cool down tho, imo. but yeah, stack mind and fast blade to flat blade combo works wonders.

Rampart is not a PLD's strongest hate tool. Unless a mob is physically resistant, my PLD's 200+ damage Flat Blade will generate just as much, if not more. Not to mention I can use it every 10 seconds. Rampart is nice for a hate reset if you need it.

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Originally Posted by Ashenspire

Rampart is not a PLD's strongest hate tool. Unless a mob is physically resistant, my PLD's 200+ damage Flat Blade will generate just as much, if not more. Not to mention I can use it every 10 seconds. Rampart is nice for a hate reset if you need it.

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gota disagree here, Many times i can go from yellow hate to flashing red when i rampart 3+ party members . the party establishing hate helps rampart, but is not needed. A full party rampart before a fight give ample space for DDs to go all out for at least the first 5+ minutes of the fight, with me using other hate abilities, after that they have to start using hate dumps , but we manage enmity well enough to get speed runs on turtle back wich is harder then it would seem considering you have 5 NMs, all capable of gimping or completly reseting hate on the tank, and golem... that fuker is broken if you ask me but we still get it done. The mobs being a little easier to damage only make hate controll harder, when your doing less damage as a dd , your pulling less hate in general , and as a PLD you dont, or at least shouldnt be, relying on dps to hold hate. soo your hate generation is typically same with any lvl or mob, slightly higher on those with weaker defenses, but the enmity pull from the dds on weak mobs is much higher then that of a HNM. but back on topic, Rampart pulls more hate then anything we can do in a single combo or action , as of right now, IF its done right, simply ramparting yourself or one or two members in a party is not gona be sufficent , obviously. When golem resets hate, one of the dds should be kiting the golem while everyone else gathers in a specific spot, once everyone is together, have the kiter run twards the group , as soon as they are close enough to get rampart, you proc it, this almost always throws me back in flashing red if not , at least red. Note, if you atempt to do this, it must be done quick or at least before golem dose hate reset again , last thing you want is your party grouped up to be wiped out by his aoe.

All in all, Rampart is our strongest hate tool, just not the most efficient.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

Ifrit Extreme with War tank. I would like to see a video of that :]

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Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tfS7...ature=youtu.be

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d4Nw...ature=youtu.be

Set up: War x5, Whm x2, Drg

Don't need anything special for this. All the Wars were using Garuda's Screams and Drg was using Serpent Lieutenant's Spear. You definitely don't need relics and darklight gears in order to tank Ifrit Extreme as a war. Sorry about missing first 50 secs of Part 1 video. Enjoy!

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Originally Posted by Demo

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tfS7...ature=youtu.be

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d4Nw...ature=youtu.be

Set up: War x5, Whm x2, Drg

Don't need anything special for this. All the Wars were using Garuda's Screams and Drg was using Serpent Lieutenant's Spear. You definitely don't need relics and darklight gears in order to tank Ifrit Extreme as a war. Sorry about missing first 50 secs of Part 1 video. Enjoy!

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Haha good show. I'll say it can definitely be done (as proven here), but it still doesn't look quite as effective (like paladin seems to be a lot quicker re-establishing hate after a crimson cyclone). Still, I think Paladin and Warrior are fairly well balanced right now. You can pretty much choose your preference.

I'm concerned as to why the discussion is about PLD holding hate. Do they other classes not use their enmity reduction skills effectively?

Or is it that they have less HP than a WAR?

Either way I would be crusading for PLD to get the ability to parry while holding a shield. A defender like PLD deserves the extra mitigation technique. Also if they can use MRD's foresight and overpower they'd have an opening AoE skill.

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

I'm concerned as to why the discussion is about PLD holding hate. Do they other classes not use their enmity reduction skills effectively?

Or is it that they have less HP than a WAR?

Either way I would be crusading for PLD to get the ability to parry while holding a shield. A defender like PLD deserves the extra mitigation technique. Also if they can use MRD's foresight and overpower they'd have an opening AoE skill.

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exactly what pld needs, to be able parry and use forsight with overpower would go along way for pld. also an overhaul to the cover and outmanuvear abilitites then pld will be set. just like how warrior has all tools to perform well pld will then be beast just like warrior with these improvements/ changes!

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Originally Posted by stanleyyoung

exactly what pld needs, to be able parry and use forsight with overpower would go along way for pld. also an overhaul to the cover and outmanuvear abilitites then pld will be set. just like how warrior has all tools to perform well pld will then be beast just like warrior with these improvements/ changes!

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lol I tried to tell people like 1000 times. I tried to say back before they did the first class revisions but all we got were useless revisions. They just buffed the skills rather than improving the function of the job.

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

lol I tried to tell people like 1000 times. I tried to say back before they did the first class revisions but all we got were useless revisions. They just buffed the skills rather than improving the function of the job.

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very true...the only thing we can do/hope for is the with 2.0 pld will have all the tools to perform its role, along with all other classes and jobs being the same way. since we are gonna have to relearn our class/job roles again this will be the last chance for them to get it right from the start but if not they better not pull the BS they did with 1.0 and just buff skills rather then revising the class/job. gonna be very bad if classes/jobs are unbalanced when 2.0 hits that will only prove that SE cant salavage this game.

I dunno how much you've been playing on PLD but since the revisions, PLD has seen worlds of improvement both defensively and offensively. 50% physical damage reduction for 60-75% of a fight if you span your abilities out, improved WS damage, greater Enmity Mods, it's all pretty boss to me. And while I'm not against gaining the ability to parry with a shield equipped (I was actually one of the forerunners suggesting it prior to the revisions), it's not entirely necessary now.

The only difference now is PLD has no distinguishable role beyond a Tank while WAR can still support both DD and Tank roles (albeit they're separate now) and still has better overall AoE control than PLD, which PLD could use a boost in to help make up for it's rather singular role.

I agree regarding the parry bit. One thing that has always bugged me is that WAR can parry against tons of mobs with just one axe, while a PLD with a sword and a shield can only block and not parry. It would make more sense for there to be a slight - and very minor (1 second?) cooldown on block and on parry, and for PLD to be able to use both while WAR can only use one. That would mean WAR is better offensively against multiple mobs, while PLD is better defensively. Then it would be up to the skill of the PLD (and his pary) to ensure he can get hate on all the mobs, knowing that once he does he will have twice the defensive capabiilities than a WAR would.