i see they decided to delete black mage.

i implore them to revert these black mage changes as soon as humanly possible, this completely erases the core philosophy of prepositioning and fight knowledge being integral to black mage and its honestly insulting. genuinely considering just dropping the game at this point seen as how they have outright purged my main class from the game twice in a row now first with cards and nocturnal sect's removal and again now that black mage has been lobotomized. and thats not even touching on the countless problems with other classes they seem perfectly content to entirely ignore or even exacerbate

i bet you didn't even do much on blm since DT.
7.0's take on blm was horrible. it simply didn't fit the encounter design anymore. all skill expression and class fantasy doesn't help you when you need so much more effort just to end up in 2nd place (speaking just about casters).

Dont see the problem.
Blm looks to be faster now and people complained about the timer and the long casting time all the time.
They have yet adjusted it (ok, it feels weird now, that you dont have to look for the timer anymore)

I would more complain, that summoner has lost his relevance.
Until now was the blm the canon, slow and strong, and the summoner the gun, fast but weaker -with practicly no casting time-. And rdm something in between.

But now is the blm very fast (feels even faster as some meele). And steals Summoner trait.
The only critic i had is, that you can now Spam fire4 until mana is over with 0 problems. And could maybe even forgot paradox and fire3.

But in overall does it look like a good change for me. The timer was still the most annoying thing. Because it was so short (ok, 20s timer could had worked to).

Dont see the problem.
Blm looks to be faster now and people complained about the timer and the long casting time all the time.
They have yet adjusted it (ok, it feels weird now, that you dont have to look for the timer anymore)

I would more complain, that summoner has lost his relevance.
Until now was the blm the canon, slow and strong, and the summoner the gun, fast but weaker -with practicly no casting time-. And rdm something in between.

But now is the blm very fast (feels even faster as some meele). And steals Summoner trait.
The only critic i had is, that you can now Spam fire4 until mana is over with 0 problems. And could maybe even forgot paradox and fire3.

But in overall does it look like a good change for me. The timer was still the most annoying thing. Because it was so short (ok, 20s timer could had worked to).

They need to revert it, cast times most importantly.

If they want to give blm more room and less chances to mess up, Give black mage a spammable movement option that's a slight damage loss but resets the timer for emergency situations where you need to move or if you mess up astral fire timers.

I'd also remove Astral Gauge this gauge has caused so many issues with how black mage is designed, they can either make flare star a upgrade or be a follow up attack from despair (either one is fine) I personally resent this gauge as I think it's a key reason why people have been complaining about DT BLM and hence we got this bad rework.

I kinda think one reason they did Flarestar the way they did was to kill nonstandard specifically, or rather, removing the skill gap is the point of it.

The goal probably isn't to make it friendlier or enjoyable for the players, but to reduce variance in output to make designing content easier.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

They need to revert it, cast times most importantly.

If they want to give blm more room and less chances to mess up, Give black mage a spammable movement option that's a slight damage loss but resets the timer for emergency situations where you need to move or if you mess up astral fire timers.

I'd also remove Astral Gauge this gauge has caused so many issues with how black mage is designed, they can either make flare star a upgrade or be a follow up attack from despair (either one is fine) I personally resent this gauge as I think it's a key reason why people have been complaining about DT BLM and hence we got this bad rework.

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After played new BLM the whole new story part:

I love the change. You are now much faster and stil has your casting time. Its around the same time, as the other caster. You are only less punished by movement.
The removal of the timer is even nice., Because you dont need to restart your rotation, because of mechanic.
It only feels weird, to not have the timer anymore. And, that you can now spam fire4 until your mp is empty. So much, that you could forget paradox and fire3.

In my view is it a great upgrade. Because, it fixed the biggest 2 problems of the blm (has heared many times, that some dislike him, because he is so slow and, the timer can easily be forgotten, esspecialy by non main blm).
The only complain i have is: That spellspeed becomes meaningless (at last does it feels that way).

BLM is the only class, that could use Speed effectivly. But, because the casting time is now so fast, has it the feeling, that it has barely any meaning now (have currently a ct of 1,84s, that doesnt look so much differently to 2s). Mean, that whe would equip or stuff with crit mats to now. Like every other caster.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keichi

In my view is it a great upgrade. Because, it fixed the biggest 2 problems of the blm (has heared many times, that some dislike him, because he is so slow and, the timer can easily be forgotten, esspecialy by non main blm).
The only complain i have is: That spellspeed becomes meaningless (at last does it feels that way).

BLM is the only class, that could use Speed effectivly. But, because the casting time is now so fast, has it the feeling, that it has barely any meaning now (have currently a ct of 1,84s, that doesnt look so much differently to 2s). Mean, that whe would equip or stuff with crit mats to now. Like every other caster.

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I couldn't disagree more. People that disliked the slow casts and the Fire/Ice timer could play literally any other job, but now BLM has lost a lot of what made it unique. It's like saying that having to stay within 3y of the boss is the biggest problem with melees and that it would be much better to fix them by giving all of their skills a 25y range.

As far as Spell Speed goes, it's actually closer to crit now than it's ever been, since Flare Star got an obscene buff and high speed means you get to cast it more often.

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Originally Posted by Owyn_Addens

It's like saying that having to stay within 3y of the boss is the biggest problem with melees and that it would be much better to fix them by giving all of their skills a 25y range.

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We should bookmark this post for when it inevitably happens. :p

Disagree, there is a reason why you can not play any other class.
Reason: Blm is the only true wizard in the game and with that, practicly a core class.

Whe have multiple caster, that is correct. But only the blm fit the fantasy of the classical wizard (staff, element magic, robes and pointy hat).
Summoner is a sub class, who is specialized in familair.
Red Mage is a spell sword.
And Picto is a artist.

Than is it bs to say, that someone should play something else, if he doesnt like something on the class.
There is no reason for the extra long casting time. A cast time to everyone else is legitim (with exception of monk, i think nin and maybe Viper -not sure about him-, have all meele around the same attack speed, even all ranger have around the same speed, there is no reason to have a super slow caster -except as contrast for Super fast summoner-).

The slow speed is even frustating, when the enemie has a lot of attacks, and you are missing only one second for cast time, each time. Or, the enemies are dying so fast, that you are doing practicly nothing. The slow speed can even be boring to (i wavered between blm and drg, because blm was so slow, that i fallen "assleep" in some dungeons -but have times to keep track of the surrounding-, while the drg was one of the fastes meele and keep me busy -but im more distracted from the surrounding-, the new speed make them equal, up to blm beeing even faster).
Its a taste question in overall.

Where i agree half is the timer. It gave you something to keep attention and 20s could be enough to. But at the same time is it simply a relique, who doesnt gave us much.

I dunno I associate true wizard with slow speed

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Originally Posted by Keichi

There is no reason for the extra long casting time. A cast time to everyone else is legitim (with exception of monk, i think nin and maybe Viper -not sure about him-, have all meele around the same attack speed, even all ranger have around the same speed, there is no reason to have a super slow caster -except as contrast for Super fast summoner-).

The slow speed is even frustating, when the enemie has a lot of attacks, and you are missing only one second for cast time, each time. Or, the enemies are dying so fast, that you are doing practicly nothing. The slow speed can even be boring to (i wavered between blm and drg, because blm was so slow, that i fallen "assleep" in some dungeons -but have times to keep track of the surrounding-, while the drg was one of the fastes meele and keep me busy.

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Your arguments are contradictory, you say slow casts are a source of frustration in executing mechanics, and yet you are falling asleep in dungeons due to them. This isn't a slow cast time issue. It's your attention span, you're not being engaged meaningfully in a mechanical sense because dungeons don't really do that. Having faster casts do not change this outcome. A lot of the appeal to most Black mages was overcoming the limitation of the slow cast, the feeling of getting off big spells while seamlessly doing mechanics in an encounter was an incredibly rewarding part of the experience. Now we're just like every other caster, no stress, no engagement, no reward.

You for some reason are okay with classes being faster than normal, like the example of literally more than half the melee being faster than standard GCD, but you are not okay with slower than standard, which was a trait unique to BLM, who also had the option of melding speed to go fast. Taking away both choice and uniqueness from the job in order to fulfill your limited view on a class archetype that is completely unrelated to this game was incredibly ignorant. Also DRG is not a fast melee, it's uniquely one of the only ones that remains slow.

I do not want BLM to be the same as other casters, I liked it because of it's style, it's difference, it's complexity in a culmination of an encounter to overcome for a rewarding experience. Arguably the wizard archetype fits older BLM better because wizard casts, and uses their magic as tools to move around, instead of a wizard that just walks and throws spells around.

I hate to say it but if your ideal is a wizard with robe and hat, White Mage is there to cover your entire fantasy in the same style you want to play, with faster casts and everything. BLM with slower casts have always found a way to overcome excess movement such as TOP P6, Superchain, purgation, natural alignment, Manifold flames, fourfold flames etc. Just to name a few from most recent. We should have been left to enjoy the large difference to play style.

I weep for the BLMs and SAMs. They are the heart and soul of this game.

I dont contradtict myself. The answer is situation based.
Some dungeon has very fast mechanics or adds, who die fast. Like Trojan. Where at last the first part of them are so fast down, that you doesnt came much to casting. And had later on parts with lot of aoe, that forced you to move (Trojan feeled like a anti blm dungeon).
Or currently the dungeon with "Alice rabbit hole". Where the second both force you to move around a lot. Even raids can give you this problems.

And than have whe the cases, where no mechanic force you to do much. Like the 90er dungeon with the octopus (or what ever the tentacle thing is). You can shoot most of the enemie, without beeing bothered. Because, the tank is taking all very good and dont have much of aoe. Or, you know the fights allready and know spots, where you can stand for a longer time, without beeing bothered with attacks.
All you has to do than is to stand still and to shoot. If you have than a slower casting time (maybe, because you choiced a crit build instead of a Quick build), can it become boring. Drg was a nice contrast, because you has allways something to press. Or has/can positionate to a new place, to hit more enemie. Or, if you are even faster (like reaper in his shroud mode) could you go so much into attack (because of the high speed or at last, high speed animation), that you forget your surrounding (a reason, why i choiced again reaper, i missed to many mechanics, because i only was focused in attack).

The new speed of blm let you cast very fast. But not to fast (except, if you are maybe still a speed build). Its even looks nice, to see all this many fire and explosion in rapid fire (a other reason to play blm, his fire moves looks very nice, i only wishes for a bit more variation, as only explosion).

And white mage doesnt fit. He is the priest. And is using healing (and stone+Wind in lower Level, the "boring" elements in contrast to fire, ice, lightning -the "cool" elements-).

I get you now. So you want faster casts, with more frequency in buttons to press, that uses fire and lightning, who is not a healer, and has a position requirement and has big, but varied animations. To top it off they even sometimes hit faster.

MY BROTHER IN CHRIST YOU WANT RED MAGE!

Nope, Red Mage is spellsword (ok, i had a phase where i thought to switch to him, but the gameplay doesnt feels as smooth as blm).

Dont understand, what is speaking again the faster speed. When he is only around same speed as the others now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keichi

Disagree, there is a reason why you can not play any other class.
Reason: Blm is the only true wizard in the game and with that, practicly a core class.

Whe have multiple caster, that is correct. But only the blm fit the fantasy of the classical wizard (staff, element magic, robes and pointy hat).
Summoner is a sub class, who is specialized in familair.

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you know you can put a wizard hat on any class you want, right? The hempen hat works on any class from level 1.

Even still, If it's a valid reason to make any class baby-stupid-easy just because it's a basic fantasy archetype, then where do we draw that line?
I don't like Dragoon's gameplay, but I really like using a spear. Should I whine on the forums until Square makes it something I'd enjoy more? I probably would be a bit happy to enjoy Dragoon for the twenty minutes I try it before I go back to playing something else.
Hell, I started as a Summoner in one of my early characters, but swapped to Black Mage because playing a Summoner felt like I was a three-year-old chewing on building blocks. I want that job to change to require a bit more than a single digit IQ to optimize.
What's the main stat on Caster DPS again? Intelligence. How about we try to fill that class fantasy.

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Originally Posted by GartredZW

you know you can put a wizard hat on any class you want, right? The hempen hat works on any class from level 1.

Even still, If it's a valid reason to make any class baby-stupid-easy just because it's a basic fantasy archetype, then where do we draw that line?
I don't like Dragoon's gameplay, but I really like using a spear. Should I whine on the forums until Square makes it something I'd enjoy more? I probably would be a bit happy to enjoy Dragoon for the twenty minutes I try it before I go back to playing something else.
Hell, I started as a Summoner in one of my early characters, but swapped to Black Mage because playing a Summoner felt like I was a three-year-old chewing on building blocks. I want that job to change to require a bit more than a single digit IQ to optimize.
What's the main stat on Caster DPS again? Intelligence. How about we try to fill that class fantasy.

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Why should one class be 10000x more complicated than any other class in the game? The appeal of black mage is that it is a pure magic caster with no frills. You just spam your strongest magics as much as you can.

Black mage at its core is about purity, not complexity. If any class should be overly complex and intellect based, it is scholar. You know? The one that is titled scholar? Black mage should be a dps version of white mage. Purity of magical expression, not complexity.

Talking about IQ in an mmo is always going to be a silly thing to begin with. You want to use brain cells? Do science or something, become a doctor, engage in literature. Video games, mmos especially, are not an intellectual activity. Like rofl, you play mmos and you're trying to flex IQ with it, do you ever take a step back and realize how inane this idea is?

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Why should one class be 10000x more complicated than any other class in the game? The appeal of black mage is that it is a pure magic caster with no frills. You just spam your strongest magics as much as you can.

Black mage at its core is about purity, not complexity.

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The job has not been this way since ARR. Since HW things like GCD management, MP ticks, standard and nonstandard rotations, recast timer manipulation, etc have been part of the job. It's also extremely silly to say this game is not supposed to be intellectually engaging when endgame content can take dozens or even hundreds of hours to clear and people develop diagrams and video/visual guides to learn the encounters. It's clearly not supposed to be a braindead experience at anything above the casual level. It's a game largely for nerds and while some players are happy with Press Button Equals Explosion, we have other jobs for that fantasy.

Balancing for casuals is tolerable to some degree. SE is a business and I would rather they keep the lights on because I love a lot about this game. However the players that play the longest, sub for the greatest amount of time, get optional items and extra retainers, promote the game online by word of mouth on social media... most of that is done by lifers and veterans, a good chunk of them being endgame raiders.

It's not entirely fair for them to obliterate the core of a job built up for basically 9 years just because they didn't meet some quota of players doing dungeons or something. If they cared to listen to the playerbase they'd have already known beforehand that these changes would make BLM mains riot. That the deletion of the Enochian timer got approved at all is baffling to me.

Anyone who defends this change in particular did not do high end content as BLM in 7.1, or not to a high level of execution at the very least. The job was largely fantastic and needed only tiny QoL. Without making reference to illegal tools (which I do not admit to using), I can vaguely claim that no party I joined ever struggled with enrages for any reason other than deaths, lol.

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Originally Posted by RirisuBlix

The job has not been this way since ARR. Since HW things like GCD management, MP ticks, standard and nonstandard rotations, recast timer manipulation, etc have been part of the job. It's also extremely silly to say this game is not supposed to be intellectually engaging when endgame content can take dozens or even hundreds of hours to clear and people develop diagrams and video/visual guides to learn the encounters. It's clearly not supposed to be a braindead experience at anything above the casual level. It's a game largely for nerds and while some players are happy with Press Button Equals Explosion, we have other jobs for that fantasy.

Balancing for casuals is tolerable to some degree. SE is a business and I would rather they keep the lights on because I love a lot about this game. However the players that play the longest, sub for the greatest amount of time, get optional items and extra retainers, promote the game online by word of mouth on social media... most of that is done by lifers and veterans, a good chunk of them being endgame raiders.

It's not entirely fair for them to obliterate the core of a job built up for basically 9 years just because they didn't meet some quota of players doing dungeons or something. If they cared to listen to the playerbase they'd have already known beforehand that these changes would make BLM mains riot. That the deletion of the Enochian timer got approved at all is baffling to me.

Anyone who defends this change in particular did not do high end content as BLM in 7.1, or not to a high level of execution at the very least. The job was largely fantastic and needed only tiny QoL. Without making reference to illegal tools (which I do not admit to using), I can vaguely claim that no party I joined ever struggled with enrages for any reason other than deaths, lol.

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"(which I do not admit to using)"

Just say you didn't use them if you didn't use them lol. What is this wording if not an indirect admission to using them?

The game's encounters were simpler in the past, engagement design has become more complicated and BLM is suffering in engagement as a result.

Nobody cares about BLM mains at the end of the day. Your word of mouth means nothing if when people try what you're enthusiastic about, they realize that it's something extremely fringe level interest and quit immediately. Player retention is what counts. Your individual subscriptions as BLM players are a drop in the ocean, no matter how long you are subbed for and how many extra features you purchase.

Very few people did high end content as BLM for a reason, and it's the same reason this "riot" means nothing. It's a minority of minorities.

I really tried to enjoy it. And I did have some fun playing the new raids blind, but the "new encounter design formula" is the same thing as past fights but faster, like everyone predicted... And I wouldn't even mind that if I still got to play BLM...

But it's boring... it's so freaking boring... in content where you know the safe spots... and especially in content before you get Paradox, you just spam Fire 4 like a healer... the very reason why I left healing for BLM follows me around now... I want to curl up in a ball and cry.

The fact the timer even existed meant you had choices to make to keep the timer running. Sometimes you needed to use Firestarter in fire stage, sometimes you needed to clip a swiftcast gcd, sometimes you needed to quickly transpose to UB1... Yeah those were unoptimal choices, yeah it meant you made a mistake in managing Triple/Swift, but nothing was more unoptimal than dropping the timer, and quickly making a choice to recover was a part of the fun...

I understand they made changes for high end content but surely there was another way to make BLM not suffer from PCT so much...

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

"(which I do not admit to using)"

Just say you didn't use them if you didn't use them lol. What is this wording if not an indirect admission to using them?

The game's encounters were simpler in the past, engagement design has become more complicated and BLM is suffering in engagement as a result.

Nobody cares about BLM mains at the end of the day. Your word of mouth means nothing if when people try what you're enthusiastic about, they realize that it's something extremely fringe level interest and quit immediately. Player retention is what counts. Your individual subscriptions as BLM players are a drop in the ocean, no matter how long you are subbed for and how many extra features you purchase.

Very few people did high end content as BLM for a reason, and it's the same reason this "riot" means nothing. It's a minority of minorities.

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A lot of the reason for poor BLM clear counts in 7.0, 7.05, and 7.1 were precisely because SE took UI Paradox away from us and tried to force us into standard. This made me not even level the job, preciously my main, until this extremely shortsighted decision was reversed in 7.05.

It's circular logic. "We messed up BLM in 7.0, so nobody played it, so we fixed it for one patch, but not enough people came back, so we decided to mess it up again." What is the point.

"Nobody cares" is a weird statement to make. We pay their bills. They are offering a service. It was content that was in the game for basically 9 years. Why take my content away from me for people who will hop on the job to level to 100 for their mount and never touch it again? They could have done it just fine with the timer. It's objectively stupid and bad design to delete more complexity from your game you've been deleting complexity from for the last 3 expansions, to where people are constantly asking for More Stuff To Do and Put It Back Please.

Casuals are not player retention. Endgame mains of jobs are retention.

Also the point of my statement was to make it clear that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to BLM high end performance. I'm not just pulling stuff out of thin air. I have dozens (basically hundreds) of clears and helped tens of people clear M1-M4S the first time with both teaching mechs and making sure enrages were met.

Have you done BLM job quests? Have you met Shatotto? Did you do her trial? Tell me after, that BLM in final fantasy is not about the job complexity.

Btw, I unsabbed from the game after those changes. That's not my BLM.

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Originally Posted by RirisuBlix

A lot of the reason for poor BLM clear counts in 7.0, 7.05, and 7.1 were precisely because SE took UI Paradox away from us and tried to force us into standard. This made me not even level the job, preciously my main, until this extremely shortsighted decision was reversed in 7.05.

It's circular logic. "We messed up BLM in 7.0, so nobody played it, so we fixed it for one patch, but not enough people came back, so we decided to mess it up again." What is the point.

"Nobody cares" is a weird statement to make. We pay their bills. They are offering a service. It was content that was in the game for basically 9 years. Why take my content away from me for people who will hop on the job to level to 100 for their mount and never touch it again? They could have done it just fine with the timer. It's objectively stupid and bad design to delete more complexity from your game you've been deleting complexity from for the last 3 expansions, to where people are constantly asking for More Stuff To Do and Put It Back Please.

Casuals are not player retention. Endgame mains of jobs are retention.

Also the point of my statement was to make it clear that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to BLM high end performance. I'm not just pulling stuff out of thin air. I have dozens (basically hundreds) of clears and helped tens of people clear M1-M4S the first time with both teaching mechs and making sure enrages were met.

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Awh too bad