Why is paladin the only job now that deals 20% reduced damage?

The frontline changes look very exciting, and I thank the devs for their efforts to improve and expand on the mode. However, I found my personal excitement to be soured upon seeing the changes to damage reduction. Dragoon and Dark Knight both had their damage dealt increased from -20% to -15%. This now leaves Paladin as the only job to receive a 20% nerf to its damage. I find this odd because Paladin's kit already deals low damage, the least of any of the tanks. Furthermore, with the nerfs it has received over 7.1 due to Crystalline Conflict, its defensives are also the weakest amongst tanks. Yes, cover is a strong ability, but properly utilizing it hinders your ability to act and do damage. Cover also has many counters, and in Frontlines, the likelihood that you will see these counters increases greatly, even more so now with some of the new role actions. In the context of Frontlines, surely Dark Knight's salted earth is considered more impactful than cover. So, why is Paladin punished so harshly?

I hope that this post is premature, and I look forward to testing out the new changes to Frontlines in 7.2. The reintroduction of Secure is especially interesting since it is a whole new map to me, having started playing after it had been removed. However, if Paladin still feels as it has in 7.1, I'm afraid that I will not have any desire to play Frontlines for long and will have to play Crystalline Conflict instead, which is a shame as I am not very good at it and I believe many would not like to see me back for another season.

Probably to offset that they can basically say "screw your guard" with shield smite

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Originally Posted by DolphinsFan

The frontline changes look very exciting, and I thank the devs for their efforts to improve and expand on the mode. However, I found my personal excitement to be soured upon seeing the changes to damage reduction. Dragoon and Dark Knight both had their damage dealt increased from -20% to -15%. This now leaves Paladin as the only job to receive a 20% nerf to its damage. I find this odd because Paladin's kit already deals low damage, the least of any of the tanks. Furthermore, with the nerfs it has received over 7.1 due to Crystalline Conflict, its defensives are also the weakest amongst tanks. Yes, cover is a strong ability, but properly utilizing it hinders your ability to act and do damage. Cover also has many counters, and in Frontlines, the likelihood that you will see these counters increases greatly, even more so now with some of the new role actions. In the context of Frontlines, surely Dark Knight's salted earth is considered more impactful than cover. So, why is Paladin punished so harshly?

I hope that this post is premature, and I look forward to testing out the new changes to Frontlines in 7.2. The reintroduction of Secure is especially interesting since it is a whole new map to me, having started playing after it had been removed. However, if Paladin still feels as it has in 7.1, I'm afraid that I will not have any desire to play Frontlines for long and will have to play Crystalline Conflict instead, which is a shame as I am not very good at it and I believe many would not like to see me back for another season.

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Maybe to emphasize PLD as a staller?

It was my first FL job and I eventually gave up on it because simply not dying didn't strike me as that interesting.

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Originally Posted by Mercury_Grey

Probably to offset that they can basically say "screw your guard" with shield smite

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Warrior limit break does this as well and much more effectively since its effect is a full removal and does not need its targets to already be guarded. While Paladin can use shield smite more often, needing its targets to be guarded to actually work makes it so that at most it's likely only to affect a couple guards at a time and only for a couple seconds. While powerful in smaller-scale fights to secure kills, it loses its strength in fighting larger groups where the goal isn't so much to single people out.

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Originally Posted by DolphinsFan

Warrior limit break does this as well and much more effectively since its effect is a full removal and does not need its targets to already be guarded. While Paladin can use shield smite more often, needing its targets to be guarded to actually work makes it so that at most it's likely only to affect a couple guards at a time and only for a couple seconds. While powerful in smaller-scale fights to secure kills, it loses its strength in fighting larger groups where the goal isn't so much to single people out.

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"Balance" is still based on 5v5, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

"Balance" is still based on 5v5, unfortunately.

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Job kits are, but the damage reductions applied in frontlines aren't, otherwise they wouldn't exist.

Pairing Cover with the new Rampart does look like it'll be pretty great, since that can't be broken or shattered like Guard. Apart from all that, it all looks pretty fun.

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Originally Posted by DolphinsFan

Job kits are, but the damage reductions applied in frontlines aren't, otherwise they wouldn't exist.

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Yeah indeed, so maybe PLD's flavor is "big, bad sponge."

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Yeah indeed, so maybe PLD's flavor is "big, bad sponge."

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The issue here is that Paladin's kit is already built around deciding between damage and tanking. Its strongest attack is built into shelltron, which aside from its lb, is it's only mitigation, and to actually get the attack off at full effectiveness, it can't use any of it for defense. If a paladin wants to use cover, they often have to kitchen sink which makes them practically unable to take an offensive action. Other tanks are arguably better at surviving than paladin and they don't have to sacrifice their damage to do so.

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Originally Posted by DolphinsFan

The issue here is that Paladin's kit is already built around deciding between damage and tanking. Its strongest attack is built into shelltron, which aside from its lb, is it's only mitigation, and to actually get the attack off at full effectiveness, it can't use any of it for defense. If a paladin wants to use cover, they often have to kitchen sink which makes them practically unable to take an offensive action. Other tanks are arguably better at surviving than paladin and they don't have to sacrifice their damage to do so.

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Now you can add the 30-yard punt, which I believe is about average for the Dolphins?

(Next season, Fins. I can feel it.)

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Now you can add the 30-yard punt, which I believe is about average for the Dolphins?

(Next season, Fins. I can feel it.)

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if the animation for the punt isn't my ffxiv character drop kicking the enemy i will be upset

Update after playing today, so far the job feels very unsatisfactory. Its damage as expected is subpar. However, its ability to survive which people have mentioned as its strength feels much worse than expected. At no point have I felt like a proper tank. This has left me feeling more confused as to why its damage modifier was unchanged in the new patch and ultimately like the job has been forgotten and abandoned by the devs.

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Originally Posted by DolphinsFan

Update after playing today, so far the job feels very unsatisfactory. Its damage as expected is subpar. However, its ability to survive which people have mentioned as its strength feels much worse than expected. At no point have I felt like a proper tank. This has left me feeling more confused as to why its damage modifier was unchanged in the new patch and ultimately like the job has been forgotten and abandoned by the devs.

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I suspect part of it is a question of the incoming damage outstripping the defensives, plus earlier BH for the enemy.

It's their Cover tax.

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Originally Posted by Naizakane

It's their Cover tax.

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But as I've mentioned, playing around cover already means a significant reduction in your damage output, and there are more impactful abilities in fl that aren't taxed as hard. I'm not saying there should be no damage reduction, but as is it feels too high. Also, the cover tax is already built into its kit. This isn't an ability like salted earth that becomes drastically stronger in frontlines. Cover is arguably a better ability in crystalline conflict than in frontlines, meaning that paladin's potencies and defensives have been tuned with that in mind.

Haha, Ty SE, i can now rule them all more.

In CC playing as a paladin you're going to be hyper focused on anyways because you're melee and the only person within 20 feet of the crystal most times. You can be taking 1.2 million damage in regulation and simp ranged dps will still cry if you don't cover them when they get hit a couple of times. At this point it'd make more sense to give the skill to another class so they can cover paladin.

It's to prevent do have 4 players playing PLD, get you perma stunned into you'll die in literally seconds, it has been used way back during Endwalker.

Cover + Rampart you'll be able to save your PLD in need without using guard cause you can pair Rampart with Holy Sheltron.

Outside of that, I'm sorry to tell you but PLD isn't designed to do high damage if you wanna play something that does high damage as tank, you should consider WAR, DRK and GNB.

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Originally Posted by SlaynXD

It's to prevent do have 4 players playing PLD, get you perma stunned into you'll die in literally seconds, it has been used way back during Endwalker.

Cover + Rampart you'll be able to save your PLD in need without using guard cause you can pair Rampart with Holy Sheltron.

Outside of that, I'm sorry to tell you but PLD isn't designed to do high damage if you wanna play something that does high damage as tank, you should consider WAR, DRK and GNB.

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If a 4 stack wants to go around griefing single people, there are plenty of jobs that can do it more effectively than pld. A 4 stack of warriors can chain pull someone into an alliance where they'll take significantly more cc than 4 plds can put out. Also, I think its absurd to suggest that pld should be the only tank not designed with the ability to do damage. I don't want insane damage output. I just want pld to no longer be singled out as the job with the most brutal damage penalty so that it doesn't feel miserable to play.

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Originally Posted by SlaynXD

It's to prevent do have 4 players playing PLD, get you perma stunned into you'll die in literally seconds, it has been used way back during Endwalker.

Cover + Rampart you'll be able to save your PLD in need without using guard cause you can pair Rampart with Holy Sheltron.

Outside of that, I'm sorry to tell you but PLD isn't designed to do high damage if you wanna play something that does high damage as tank, you should consider WAR, DRK and GNB.

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A PLD isn't going to deal high damage in FL without the 20% damage penalty. We got a good burst sequence in CC but honestly compared to something like MCH or MNK it's child's play. That and the Sheltron part of our burst in CC is both harder and riskier in FL because of the increased stray damage; that and if land it, it also means we don't have that 15% mitigation. The other tanks don't have the 20% penalty and I don't think PLD should either.

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Originally Posted by DolphinsFan

If a 4 stack wants to go around griefing single people, there are plenty of jobs that can do it more effectively than pld.

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4 Stack PLDS can just infinitely cover each other, and with sustain from Holy Spirit + Sacred Claim debuff restoring health on hits, it's far more grief than a 4x WAR/DRK/GNB group since it's a heavy stall setup that can constantly get in your way, and still survive when focused with a heavy amount of resources due to how tanky PLDs can be.

In any case, if you are wanting to specifically pad damage it's going to be very difficult on PLD considering it's so supportive in nature, you'd have to pretty much neglect your role in securing kills. The damage boards in FL are still largely ruled by which ranged player was throwing out all their spells the most.

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Originally Posted by Sunhwapark

4 Stack PLDS can just infinitely cover each other, and with sustain from Holy Spirit + Sacred Claim debuff restoring health on hits, it's far more grief than a 4x WAR/DRK/GNB group since it's a heavy stall setup that can constantly get in your way, and still survive when focused with a heavy amount of resources due to how tanky PLDs can be.

In any case, if you are wanting to specifically pad damage it's going to be very difficult on PLD considering it's so supportive in nature, you'd have to pretty much neglect your role in securing kills. The damage boards in FL are still largely ruled by which ranged player was throwing out all their spells the most.

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I genuinely do not know when or where you are playing where four stacks of pld's are running rampant being a menace to society. I have seen machinist stacks, monk stacks, and warrior stacks ruin people's days but never paladin stacks. Regardless, as I've said before, paladin's strengths as a support are greater in cc than in frontlines, and the tradeoff is already built into its kit. I do not think paladin should constantly be topping the boards. I do think that the damage penalty is excessive and makes the class feel bad to play.

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Originally Posted by DolphinsFan

I genuinely do not know when or where you are playing where four stacks of pld's are running rampant being a menace to society.

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In Frontlines, where people can stack any class they want be it SCH, WHM, MCH, DRK, DRG I've seen all the variety already and is a factor that comes in to play - when people were stacking SCH for bio spreading constantly, what happened ? They had their damage nerfed. Same with people stacking WHMs for death beams, and AST macrocosmos bombs in the DRK meta. While it doesn't resolve the issue entirely it at least discourages stacking to some degree and keeps it toned down.

Even with the damage penalty removed, PLD's kit is going to struggle due to how it works in the first place. PLD is an enabler, it enables life and also the possibility to deal great damage - this isn't a unique thing that only shines in CC.

By the way, I'm not against removing the damage penalty since those are annoying in general, just describing the class function versus the goal you are trying to achieve.

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Originally Posted by Sunhwapark

In Frontlines, where people can stack any class they want be it SCH, WHM, MCH, DRK, DRG I've seen all the variety already and is a factor that comes in to play - when people were stacking SCH for bio spreading constantly, what happened ? They had their damage nerfed. Same with people stacking WHMs for death beams, and AST macrocosmos bombs in the DRK meta. While it doesn't resolve the issue entirely it at least discourages stacking to some degree and keeps it toned down.

Even with the damage penalty removed, PLD's kit is going to struggle due to how it works in the first place. PLD is an enabler, it enables life and also the possibility to deal great damage - this isn't a unique thing that only shines in CC.

By the way, I'm not against removing the damage penalty since those are annoying in general, just describing the class function versus the goal you are trying to achieve.

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I am glad you can agree how frustrating having damage be reduced feels. I do not want the damage penalty removed. I just want paladin to not be singled out as the job with the highest penalty because no one has ever complained about it doing to much damage in frontlines. That its kit is designed around enabling is all the more reason that the penalty is ridiculous. All it does is make the solo queue experience more miserable than it should be.

Gigachad Paladins are too strong so Yoshida has to give us these artificial limiters so we don't don't warp everything around us being the best.

This wasn't my thread but I am still bumping it because it annoys me we have this damage penalty in FL for no reason.

BUMP for justice and because pally dmg is very bad in CC!

Shield smite should be an off global if you ask me...Because of the ridiculous delay PvP has nowadays, 1s will pass before you see an enemy with guard, if you used a weapon skill, well great, wait another 2s - so you are at 3s of Guard buff, 2s remaining and you can cut short the final 1-2s if you are lucky and in range with that skill. Not so great...barely beneficial.
Often players cancel their guard before it runs out to be less predictable, to not be cc directly when they come out, to be able to use recuperate.
Paladin will be much more useful with that ability to be used whenever...

Imperator delay is still so huge though...And the amount of times I covered and guarded myself only for the target to die 2-3s later from "late dmg". The whole decision making progress is ruined because of this delay in CC. You often die because you used 1 ability 4 GCD's before, when you technically already had to press your panic button while nothing was happening. It doesn't make sense. And you are too often hit by abilities that weren't even aimed at you, making your situation worse than you expected, just by the power of luck and rng it has been decided.
The skill of "reaction time" has been extremely devalued with this current PvP mode. I don't enjoy playing it seriously. And I probably won't.
It is weird to think that old PvP seasons had better netcode feeling than the newest, at least from my memory. I was able to press so many offglobals at once...Now impossible.

Also feel like its missing a range skill like shield lob. The detriment of having only so few abilities in a PvP mode I guess... Niche abilities that are really useful in some situation simply dont exist. You only have stun and nothing else, if that fails you wont be able to close distance. Gnb has 2 gapclosers, war has 2 gapclosers one of them with aoe stun and a drawin/slow, drk has 1 gapcloser and a drawin. Pld has 1 short stun with holysheltron being unreliable for the slow, I rarely hit someone with it, because of its very small radius. The skill description wont even say, I think, how big the radius is in the PvP guide. I guess its 5y only. It just takes 1 aoe and the barrier is broken. Most cases you never get the slow if enemy is nearby.

Once again, your defensive skill, is and offensive skill, is a cc skill, is a support skill. You cant do great, you cant do wrong. The philosophy of this kind of PvP.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

Shield smite should be an off global if you ask me...Because of the ridiculous delay PvP has nowadays, 1s will pass before you see an enemy with guard, if you used a weapon skill, well great, wait another 2s - so you are at 3s of Guard buff, 2s remaining and you can cut short the final 1-2s if you are lucky and in range with that skill. Not so great...barely beneficial.
Often players cancel their guard before it runs out to be less predictable, to not be cc directly when they come out, to be able to use recuperate.
Paladin will be much more useful with that ability to be used whenever...

Imperator delay is still so huge though...And the amount of times I covered and guarded myself only for the target to die 2-3s later from "late dmg". The whole decision making progress is ruined because of this delay in CC. You often die because you used 1 ability 4 GCD's before, when you technically already had to press your panic button while nothing was happening. It doesn't make sense. And you are too often hit by abilities that weren't even aimed at you, making your situation worse than you expected, just by the power of luck and rng it has been decided.
The skill of "reaction time" has been extremely devalued with this current PvP mode. I don't enjoy playing it seriously. And I probably won't.
It is weird to think that old PvP seasons had better netcode feeling than the newest, at least from my memory. I was able to press so many offglobals at once...Now impossible.

Also feel like its missing a range skill like shield lob. The detriment of having only so few abilities in a PvP mode I guess... Niche abilities that are really useful in some situation simply dont exist. You only have stun and nothing else, if that fails you wont be able to close distance. Gnb has 2 gapclosers, war has 2 gapclosers one of them with aoe stun and a drawin/slow, drk has 1 gapcloser and a drawin. Pld has 1 short stun with holysheltron being unreliable for the slow, I rarely hit someone with it, because of its very small radius. The skill description wont even say, I think, how big the radius is in the PvP guide. I guess its 5y only. It just takes 1 aoe and the barrier is broken. Most cases you never get the slow if enemy is nearby.

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Endwalker PLD felt like a better thought-out kit. Intervene with stun was funny at first but having it separated into Shield Bash was a much better and versatile design. Holy Sheltron just being a defensive and not having this weird, pointless Sword/Shield Oath mechanic was just better. Your main combo actually having a purpose (Royal Authority giving a stack for Atonement) was better design.

Don't get me started on Imperator. Everything being gated behind it is bad design. Being self-stunlocked by it is bad design. Anyway PLD is extremely strong and doesn't really need buffing, but its current design philosophy is counterintuitive for a lot of reasons.

Just wanted to say thank you for listening devs <3

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Originally Posted by DolphinsFan

Just wanted to say thank you for listening devs <3

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Meanwhile GNB got the same damage buff and now has more DR :^)

They finally got rid of the damage penalty.

Ah, now it's even with GNB

now if only they remove the mp drain from miracle and encore

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Originally Posted by Mercury_Grey

now if only they remove the mp drain from miracle and encore

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now if only they remove ridiculous;

- Scholar shields buffs
- Astrologian unnecessary dash

MP drain is fine. Without it I feel that those 2 classes would fall off pretty quickly since in most ranked matches you can see 3 healers vs 3 healers + tank. This just isn't fun and mp drain is to help deal with these 15 minute long matches.