I don't want Pictomancer to be nerfed for one reason

The dungeons

This one job has gotten me through dungeons so fast, and even on trusts that it staved off the entire boredom these dungeons have become.

Can't believe people asked for this.

You all know these dungeons are sleep-inducing, but now I guess I'll be nodding off half-asleep again.


If these dungeons were not so homogenized, predictable, and just downright too easy I wouldn't care about the nerf.

Well since I moved over to PCT in DT I feel like it's too early to tell and yes I will miss it once it's gone too.

Better to be nerfed then have your class identity took away

PCT should have been nerfed within a month. People have already said before DT came out when people who was at the media tour said they noticed they've buffed the PCT on launch and that the media tour was already strong.

I would take a nerf any day over what they are doing to BLM. And I feel the change to BLM is because of PCT, which makes me hate that job even more.

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Originally Posted by Altera

PCT should have been nerfed within a month. People have already said before DT came out when people who was at the media tour said they noticed they've buffed the PCT on launch and that the media tour was already strong.

I would take a nerf any day over what they are doing to BLM. And I feel the change to BLM is because of PCT, which makes me hate that job even more.

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What I find odd is how they mentioned pictomancer getting nerfs like it's a massive deal to reduce potency, but didn't really consider to even mention black mage changes that ruin the class identity

Comes across as tone deaf, like I really don't care if jobs get potency nerfs when deserved what I care about is taking away what makes a class feel unique in the first place.

Possibly hot take, but PCT is literally the new EW SMN but boosted on steroids in dungeons. Any job that is frontloaded to hell and beyond will clean up everything since it can ignore half of the downtime between pulls with its damage profile, and to make things even worst, like NIN it can reset everything between pulls (except the actual recast on muses, thank fuck). I hate that Nin can do this, and I hate that PCT can as well. I don't hate the idea that the job is about painting motifs, it's part of its identity, it's why people like it as well, but making instant paints out of combat by just pressing a button is wrong, and on top of it you're not even spending time painting like in combat. It's cheap, and it ruins runs even more because the PCT mows down everything before you can even reach half of your burst sequence, and you feel somewhat robbed one pull out of two. Incidentally also what makes it batshit in deep dungeons as well.

I'm all for PCT to be adjusted, and more importantly keeping its identity. But the instant redrawing between pulls is a blight. Make them work their asses redrawing, it's part of the cast times of the job.

The devs should remove every wall outside of boss fights. Problem solved

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Originally Posted by Valence

Possibly hot take, but PCT is literally the new EW SMN but boosted on steroids in dungeons. Any job that is frontloaded to hell and beyond will clean up everything since it can ignore half of the downtime between pulls with its damage profile, and to make things even worst, like NIN it can reset everything between pulls (except the actual recast on muses, thank fuck). I hate that Nin can do this, and I hate that PCT can as well. I don't hate the idea that the job is about painting motifs, it's part of its identity, it's why people like it as well, but making instant paints out of combat by just pressing a button is wrong, and on top of it you're not even spending time painting like in combat. It's cheap, and it ruins runs even more because the PCT mows down everything before you can even reach half of your burst sequence, and you feel somewhat robbed one pull out of two. Incidentally also what makes it batshit in deep dungeons as well.

I'm all for PCT to be adjusted, and more importantly keeping its identity. But the instant redrawing between pulls is a blight. Make them work their asses redrawing, it's part of the cast times of the job.

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PCT identity around motifs is storing casts for later use, the reason why they are instant outside of combat is so the PCT doesn’t stand still for 15 seconds after the pull ends casting all their motifs before running to the next boss achieving the same thing but wasting people’s time standing around

All bursts are a mess in DT because the burst window is so long and the trash is so weak, I can’t count the number of times the pack dies before I spend my hyperphantasia stacks because PCT’s burst is so long

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

What I find odd is how they mentioned pictomancer getting nerfs like it's a massive deal to reduce potency, but didn't really consider to even mention black mage changes that ruin the class identity

Comes across as tone deaf, like I really don't care if jobs get potency nerfs when deserved what I care about is taking away what makes a class feel unique in the first place.

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Because their goal is always catering to the uber casual demographic. The hope is more players will pick up BLM now that it's getting the dumbed down treatment whereas nerfing a job rarely makes the people playing said job happy, regardless of their skill level.

Basically, Picto's nerf impacts everyone while BLM's changes only impacts the higher end to midcore players whom they care a lot less about.

https://youtu.be/PzaOTnlxynI?si=vvFYsiMKxgpWYxK9

This is a really good video about why nerfing pictomancer is not that easy. To balance it even more, you can't just change some numbers. Picto is just very strong on bosses with downtime. So, to balance it more, it must be homogenized and you have to take its job identity away. :c

They should communicate such stuff in their live letters more, instead of showing us expensive merch. :x

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Originally Posted by Heavenchild

https://youtu.be/PzaOTnlxynI?si=vvFYsiMKxgpWYxK9

This is a really good video about why nerfing pictomancer is not that easy. To balance it even more, you can't just change some numbers. Picto is just very strong on bosses with downtime. So, to balance it more, it must be homogenized and you have to take its job identity away. :c

They should communicate such stuff in their live letters more, instead of showing us expensive merch. :x

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No, you don't understand the FINAL FANTASY XIV x LOGOS Folding Wagon is extremely important for fellow gamers to be aware of the rare chance they go outside and feel the sudden urge to go camping out of the blue.

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Originally Posted by Heavenchild

This is a really good video about why nerfing pictomancer is not that easy. To balance it even more, you can't just change some numbers. Picto is just very strong on bosses with downtime. So, to balance it more, it must be homogenized and you have to take its job identity away. :c

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Yes, but no.

You go too far, and you take the identity away, yes, but I would argue that it might actually be as simple as 'just change some numbers'. Let me give the maths I did a while back:

First, we identify which part of the job's kit is causing the issue. Here, it's the ability to paint in downtime. For now, we'll focus on just the Muse/Mog/Madeen painting. I don't want to deal with the maths regarding Crit Scaling and such with the Hammer. Each of these actions is 1100p for the Muses, 1300p for the Mog, and 1400p for Madeen. This full cycle, of 4 Muses, 1 Mog and 1 Madeen, has a total CD of 160s, and deals a total of 7100p.

Next, the rough idea on how to address this issue: 'what if we move some of the potency out of these moves (so that downtime gains are lower), and move it into a different part of the kit, which requires uptime?' To take this further, let's also put it in something above level 90, such that old content balance (TOP/DSR DPS checks, for example) is also brough back under control, why not? Of course, moving so much potency to one of the few parts of the 91+ kit would mean a crazy high potency value on some actions, and create a lot of Crit Variance, so ideally, we want to limit the potency of any moves to be roughly in line with what SE has already got for the Job (eg, not higher than the 1400 Madeen already occupies).

So, the simplest way would be this: A new OGCD (so as not to interrupt the current burst window's GCD flow with regards to preparing Rainbow Drip), that can be used after casting Star Prism. Call it 'Prismatic Fantasy' or something spectacular sounding. With it being tied to Star Prism, we know that the action has a pseudo-CD of 120s. So, we find the lowest common denominator between 120 and 160 (the cycle length of the Muses), and we see that it's 480. So, whatever potency we remove from Muses, Mog and Madeen, 3 sets of 'that potency total' needs to equal 4 uses of this new OGCD. So, working backwards a bit, we juggle values until we come up with something that sounds good on one side, and work through the maths to find if it works on the other end too. Let's skip to the final result we're here for: we can make the new OGCD 900p. Multiply this potency by 4 (4x120s is 480s) to get 3600, divide that by 3 (since we get 3 sets of 4 Muses, 1 Mog, 1 Madeen (totalling 12/3/3 uses) per 480s) to get 1200p (the total amount to remove from each Muse cycle), and then divide that by 6 (because there's 6 abilities (4 Muses, a Mog and a Madeen) in each cycle) to get the reduction to each of those OGCDs we'd need: 200p.

Reducing the Potency of the Muses to 900p gives them an effective 'potency per second spent casting' of 300p (since they have a 3s cast time), whereas the next best option, Subtractive Spectrum casts, have an average 'potency per second spent casting' of around 360p. That sounds like an issue, but only because we're not factoring in the time it takes to generate the gauge to use Subtractive. If you take the average of 'two combos to build 50 Palette to use Subtractive, then a Subtractive Combo', the whole 9 GCD loop, the average drops down to 260p 'per second spent casting'. This means that in the long run, painting Muses in full uptime is still 'required' for optimal damage, and the rotation should not be impacted by the reduction in potency.

TLDR, unless I'm missing something, it's as simple as reducing Mog/Madeen and all 4 of the Muses, by 200p each, and funnelling that potency instead into a 900p OGCD that follows off of our level 100 action Star Prism. This solution A: Helps curb how much PCT gains from downtimes compared to other Jobs, while still letting it get 'some' benefit (thereby preserving its identity somewhat), B: Helps curb how good it is in older challenge content like old Ultimates (by siphoning off a portion of the available potency at level 90 and moving it to the level 100 kit), and C: Is actually a buff at level 100, ironically, as you now have more potency in the burst window compared to previously (you lose 200p from a Muse, and 200p from the Mog or Madeen, but you gain 900 on this new OGCD)

If 200p is too much fo a reduction, the numbers can be switched around pretty easily. For example, instead of 200p reduction across the board, let's say it's 150p shaved off of each Muse/Mog/Madeen. Okay, then the new OGCD after Star Prism would be 675p, and everything works as previously described. It really might be 'as simple as 'just change some numbers'' after all

^ironically that would buff PCT in uptime because you have moved a fraction of the 4 creature parts you can’t put in your burst window into your burst window

So you’d be trading downtime gains for higher uptime damage and stronger buff feeding

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

^ironically that would buff PCT in uptime because you have moved a fraction of the 4 creature parts you can’t put in your burst window into your burst window

So you’d be trading downtime gains for higher uptime damage and stronger buff feeding

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TBH it's not intentionally a buff, more a 'it happens by coincidence' thing. But I expect that even if such a change occured, there'd be players who perceive it as a nerf because 'why mog hit less hard'

Hmm, it's been a while since I saw the data for full uptime fights like M1S, so I didn't remember exactly how far ahead PCT was even in full uptime situations. Perhaps then, a small knock to the potency of the followup OGCD would be warranted. IE, rather than it being potency neutral as with the example I gave, (200p removed from Muses, Mog and Madeen, 900p OGCD), instead make the OGCD, say, 750p. Or 800p, or whatever small reduction is necessary to pull 'uptime PCT' a little back in line with the rest. That is, if shifting more potency into the 2min window would even cause a problem

That website really ought to have an option to display the info as 'potency-per-second' rather than 'damage per second'. Would make it a lot easier to do this kind of maths

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

TBH it's not intentionally a buff, more a 'it happens by coincidence' thing. But I expect that even if such a change occured, there'd be players who perceive it as a nerf because 'why mog hit less hard'

Hmm, it's been a while since I saw the data for full uptime fights like M1S, so I didn't remember exactly how far ahead PCT was even in full uptime situations. Perhaps then, a small knock to the potency of the followup OGCD would be warranted. IE, rather than it being potency neutral as with the example I gave, (200p removed from Muses, Mog and Madeen, 900p OGCD), instead make the OGCD, say, 750p. Or 800p, or whatever small reduction is necessary to pull 'uptime PCT' a little back in line with the rest.

That website really ought to have an option to display the info as 'potency-per-second' rather than 'damage per second'. Would make it a lot easier to do this kind of maths

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Honestly you could just delete that extra potency from the muses with no compensation and it wouldn’t be a significant problem anyway

As long as muses are a large gain in full uptime they can lose direct potency without much problem

Wall-to-wall design is the wrong way to make dungeons.

Every pull in every dungeon is just gather a huge mass of enemies and then just AOE them down. Any "difficulty" comes from how big the pull is. All interactions with all enemies are exactly the same. It doesn't matter if you're fighting Sin Eaters or land sharks on a Tural river, all you do is spam AOEs.

Back in the day we had aggro management. Wall-to-wall was impossible, and dungeons had side paths and secrets to uncover. Dungeons were long challenges that rewarded exploration, number of enemies killed, and knowledge of the dungeon itself, but because people just want to get them done ASAP, SE started to design all of them as Wall-to-wall. There's no more secrets, side paths, and every dungeon is just a linear theme park ride.

Then you have people like Lucy Pyre whom I usually love pretending like spamming heals to survive some giant Wall-to-wall pull is engaging, interesting, or in her words: Cool AF

This is never gonna be fixed. The community encouraged this kind of dungeon design. Picto should be the least of your concerns when it comes to the current state of dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

As long as muses are a large gain in full uptime they can lose direct potency without much problem

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This maths was done while talking with someone I know who likes PCT, and was very adamant that 'change any potencies and you would kill the gameplay of the job'. Mostly the concern was 'if you adjust the Motifs at all, you'll make it so that you never paint them unless it's in downtime, which completely screws the playstyle of the job because you'd never want to paint stuff'. So, I was challenging myself to find a way to solve the 'downtime dilemma' while also keeping the total potency over the course of X seconds (in this example, 480) identical, and also keep the rotation 'mostly identical' (ie, not kill the potencies of Muses to the point where you would never paint them in uptime situations)

It was also before we learned that SE would say, in the liveletter, that they'll be outright nerfing PCT in some way. You could also just remove the potency outright. Though, knowing SE they'll leave the big hits alone (the part of the job that's actually causing the problem) because 'people find it fun to hit big number', and instead the nerf will be on something inconsequential like the Fire in Red combo steps

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

This maths was done while talking with someone I know who likes PCT, and was very adamant that 'change any potencies and you would kill the gameplay of the job'. Mostly the concern was 'if you adjust the Motifs at all, you'll make it so that you never paint them unless it's in downtime, which completely screws the playstyle of the job because you'd never want to paint stuff'. So, I was challenging myself to find a way to solve the 'downtime dilemma' while also keeping the total potency over the course of X seconds (in this example, 480) identical, and also keep the rotation 'mostly identical' (ie, not kill the potencies of Muses to the point where you would never paint them in uptime situations)

It was also before we learned that SE would say, in the liveletter, that they'll be outright nerfing PCT in some way. You could also just remove the potency outright, and I expect that is what SE will do. Though, knowing SE they'll leave the big hits alone (the part of the job that's actually causing the problem) becuase 'people find it fun to hit big number', and instead the nerf will be on something inconsequential like the Fire in Red combo steps

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That’s fair, I guess everyone has their own idea of what the jobs core design is. For me I don’t care about the big hits (the only one I really miss is rainbow drip as not having rainbow bright as a reward for hyperphantasia stacks really kills my enjoyment of the starry window) but I refuse to accept making muses require targets but that’s what PCT is to me

Working within the parameters of what your friend said that’s probably the best solution I can think of outside of flat nerfing the job while maintaining the same relative gain in downtime by nerfing aetherhues

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

The dungeons

This one job has gotten me through dungeons so fast, and even on trusts that it staved off the entire boredom these dungeons have become.

Can't believe people asked for this.

You all know these dungeons are sleep-inducing, but now I guess I'll be nodding off half-asleep again.


If these dungeons were not so homogenized, predictable, and just downright too easy I wouldn't care about the nerf.

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For me I don't really care about the numbers because I like how Picto feels and I don't think that will change. I don't think it'll be nerfed into the ground so the gameplay should be very much similar.

I do feel bad for Black Mages though. While I've never played Black Mage I can empathize that they feel bad about potential 7.2 changes.
I figured the freeing of movement would help Black Mages compete in a greater sense with Pictomancer I didn't realize it was encroaching in class fantasy.

Ultimately speaking when I saw people complain about Pictomancer all I thought of was... "Just lower the potency" or buff other jobs potency that was all.
I hadn't even considered changing Black Mage all that much.

In the Devs defense seeing the player base complain about Pictomancer and with the Ultimate having Black Mage participation so low I think they felt like this was necessary. In my minds eye if I were to put myself in the Devs position I'd probably have made similar moves... again I didn't suspect it'd effect Black Mages so much.

I digress; I'd still play Picto even if it was the worst caster simply cuz it feels good to play.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Back in the day wall to wall dungeon pulls were impossible

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Actually, dungeons didn't used to even always have walls. They first introduced walls into endgame dungeons in 2.0 with Wanderer's Palace and Amdapor Keep, which were the expert dungeons in a time before expert roulette existed.

They introduced walls tied to killing specific monsters, specifically in Amdapor Keep, because you could take a setup of PLD, BLM, BLM, WHM. This setup let the PLD pull literally every trash pack right up to the boss entrance, whereupon the BLMs would sleep every single monster. Meanwhile, before the sleeps even went into position, the WHM would pull the boss while the PLD could live with Hallowed Ground. This would ensure that the boss gate would go up before the monsters could wake up, and as a result, the comp could complete dungeons in around 12~14 minutes without raid/weekly capped tome gear. (The slept monsters would deagro and return to their spawn points while you fought the boss). You could do it in both dungeons, with WP only being slightly trickier after the first boss(it always had the keys iirc), and it trivialized dungeons completely.
This was also why in 2.1 the dungeons started to be hardcoded with walls revolving around killing the monster packs, as a preventative measure from making PLD BLM BLM WHM a meta 4-man comp. Keep in mind, though, that the possibility I laid out before was possible with a single BLM, it was just that 2 BLMs ensured no matter the pack size, everything could be slept. It was also done with PLD BLM BRD WHM and PLD BLM SMN WHM plenty with slightly more risk but faster boss kills. Which is actually what lead to the stigma against melees being bad for dungeon running.

Walls in dungeons was actually one of their first attempts at refuting player skill expression with what jobs they gave us. No matter how skilled you were, you weren't beating those dungeon run times with different comps. Towards the end of 2.0 with more i90 gear and relic weapons, you could get pretty close to those times regardless of the walls with a really skilled and geared group, but the groups I described were in i70 darklight/crafted gear.

So, no, it wasn't the players that took the first step in dumbing down dungeons. It was the devs trying to make things fair/force balance where there was none.

Because high end players were good at the game, everyone else gets the chance to express that sort of skill taken away. The first in a long line of homogenizations, though it went almost unnoticed at the time.

The natural progression of doing wall to wall came after those changes, and came about naturally due to dungeon difficulty not curving upward as they originally intended. i.e. Weekly tome gear/raid gear always kept so ahead of dungeons, that wall to wall pulls were attainable with a few pieces and a modicum of effort.

Dungeon difficulty didn't curve upward like they intended, because in 2.1 when they introduced Pharos Sirius, people came to this very forum to bellyache about its difficulty, which within a few months caused it to receive mild nerfs and then nerfs again at a later date.

TL;DR - Devs put training wheels(walls) on our dungeons to try and be fair to the jobs considered as the worse half of the jobs in ARR. In response to this, players asked for pads and helmets and band aids for booboos when the devs then tried to make dungeons interesting in other ways (Pharos Sirius trash packs had raid wide AOEs, paralysis, AOE healing on trash, and other problem monsters intended to make single target damage more viable in a trash pull(i.e. DPS do your job and eliminate problem monsters first)).

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

TL;DR - Devs put training wheels(walls) on our dungeons to try and be fair to the jobs considered as the worse half of the jobs in ARR. In response to this, players asked for pads and helmets and band aids for booboos when the devs then tried to make dungeons interesting in other ways (Pharos Sirius trash packs had raid wide AOEs, paralysis, AOE healing on trash, and other problem monsters intended to make single target damage more viable in a trash pull(i.e. DPS do your job and eliminate problem monsters first)).

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Talk about a memory lane trip. Really enjoyed this read. I forgot we used to de-aggro pulls using the boss arena aethereal gate.

I guess my frustration comes from remembering people getting into the habit of rushing through Brayflox or Haukke Mannor, instead of getting the XP from all the trash pulls and the secret chests. It always seemed like such a waste to me. Remember the ring chest behind the coeurl at the end of Brayflox? I guess in my head I blamed both runners and the devs for encouraging this kind dungeon design. The Brayflox swamp area was gutted, and now we have no more diverging paths, secrets or even mob trash XP in any dungeon.

Bottom line: I miss dungeon complexity, and I really dislike wall-to-wall design. I was a bit frustrated with the thread, because the issue with dungeons is much deeper than one OP job having stronger/faster AOEs.

Remember, remember dungeons once lived!

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Remember, remember dungeons once lived!

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