Black knighting on the forums

No, not the dark knight class.
I've seen the term 'white knighting' thrown around a lot on the forums and it's caused me to wonder if those same people realize that they're black knighting.

Just jealous we got drip, You white knights got . . what . . ? Gold trim silver plating?


I rest my case!

-Laughs in Ebony Plating with Ruby Red Trim-

https://youtu.be/fGTXTzAvthM

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Originally Posted by AshtonCrowe

Just jealous we got drip, You white knights got . . what . . ? Gold trim silver plating?


I rest my case!

-Laughs in Ebony Plating with Ruby Red Trim-

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I rest my case as well lol

Imagine choosing saradomin over zamorak

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Imagine choosing saradomin over zamorak

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Dancin for m0n3y PL0X!

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Imagine choosing saradomin over zamorak

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Sir please. I am the last surviving scholar of Guthix

This forum have been a war zone between the “white knight” and “doom sayers”. Everyday “new post” are drown by those threads. It is weird that the other forum actually have better discussion going on

I think of it more as Brown Knighting

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Originally Posted by Majatok

I like Armadyl the most. Birds are cool.

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If I had to pick I’d pick either Armadyl or Seren

https://i.imgflip.com/1k7dsc.gif

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

This forum have been a war zone between the “white knight” and “doom sayers”. Everyday “new post” are drown by those threads. It is weird that the other forum actually have better discussion going on

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That's on SE for not having any forum moderation outside the occasional thread that is too critical of them. When the inmates run the asylum and all that...

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Originally Posted by Exmo

I think of it more as Brown Knighting

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Because their opinions are fecal? This could be said of both sides, though

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

https://i.imgflip.com/1k7dsc.gif

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This gives the the old Starburst contradiction commercial vibes. Specifically the scotch Korean one.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

That's on SE for not having any forum moderation outside the occasional thread that is too critical of them. When the inmates run the asylum and all that...

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Usually it's just in response to a report.

It was black knighting in EW.

It's justified now.

Besides, it's not like I'll have black maging to fall back on for long.

I like how actual critique and suggestions, and in the case of the BLM changes, desperate cries to NOT DO THIS... are portrayed as "black knighting". How ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Auro_Seldaris

I like how actual critique and suggestions, and in the case of the BLM changes, desperate cries to NOT DO THIS... are portrayed as "black knighting". How ridiculous.

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I don't think anyone here said anything about BLM. This forum has been a cesspit since long before the live letter.

When you have a probable gil seller with a dozen accounts constantly making threads trying to convince people to quit, things aren't exactly normal. If someone is being extremely over-the-top about hating the game, check their character and it's probably 1 DoW/DoM leveled to 100 and all DoH/DoL leveled to 100. Not sure why people still take it seriously but internet's gonna internet.

There's normal critique and suggestions and then there's melodramatic threads and trolling.

Nah, the people complaining about white knights don’t possess awareness.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I don't think anyone here said anything about BLM. This forum has been a cesspit since long before the live letter.

When you have a probable gil seller with a dozen accounts constantly making threads trying to convince people to quit, things aren't exactly normal. If someone is being extremely over-the-top about hating the game, check their character and it's probably 1 DoW/DoM leveled to 100 and all DoH/DoL leveled to 100. Not sure why people still take it seriously but internet's gonna internet.

There's normal critique and suggestions and then there's melodramatic threads and trolling.

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I agree the forum is a cesspit. That's why, despite playing since HW, I only started actually posting here recently. I generally made a habit of ignoring the forums and staying away from posting, only really lurking on lore threads and whatnot. I'm only posting here to make my feelings about the story and job design known.

My statement is less about who wrote a post, and more about the general sentiments and thoughts about the game. I don't know why you attempted to deflect that with specifics about them, I couldn't care less about that.

My point still stands. Valid criticism is portrayed as "Doomposting" and now "Black Knighting". And all that is, is a means to invalidate the criticism by committing an ad hominem attack. Really what's happening is that it's now ok to talk badly about the game on places like the subreddits and Twitter, so the white knights are just defending the last bastion.

There is no line to cross between black knighting and realism anymore. The so called rage bait threads are filled with truths.

I agree, lets stop criticizing the multi-yen company and just wait patiently for them to pick up on our brainwave telepathy to fix the game or make it better.

If you want 0 critique and only happy joy joy feelings about FFXIV, the main reddit is your spot. You can go upvote the 200 000th repost of either Haurchefant dying and the player crying. Or the "welcome to shadowbringers" O_O moment.

I think Black Knight is an appropriate term. At this point, I’ve come to the conclusion that there’s nothing the devs could do to satisfy the people who claim the game is ‘dead.’ They seem to latch onto any bit of news they can twist into something negative, almost as if they’re actively rooting for the servers to shut down. It feels less like constructive criticism and more like a personal vendetta against the devs, willing them to fail.

Don’t get me wrong—I’m not against critique. But when the goalposts keep shifting, or the demands become increasingly unrealistic, it’s hard to believe these critiques come from a genuine desire to see the game improve. It makes me wonder about the psychology behind it. Are they players who want to quit but feel ‘stuck,’ so they hope the game fails to force themselves out? Or are they just deeply unhappy people who want to spread that misery to others? It’s hard to say, but it’s exhausting to watch.

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Originally Posted by Wasselin

I think Black Knight is an appropriate term. At this point, I’ve come to the conclusion that there’s nothing the devs could do to satisfy the people who claim the game is ‘dead.’ They seem to latch onto any bit of news they can twist into something negative, almost as if they’re actively rooting for the servers to shut down. It feels less like constructive criticism and more like a personal vendetta against the devs, willing them to fail.

Don’t get me wrong—I’m not against critique. But when the goalposts keep shifting, or the demands become increasingly unrealistic, it’s hard to believe these critiques come from a genuine desire to see the game improve. It makes me wonder about the psychology behind it. Are they players who want to quit but feel ‘stuck,’ so they hope the game fails to force themselves out? Or are they just deeply unhappy people who want to spread that misery to others? It’s hard to say, but it’s exhausting to watch.

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Thats a communication issue. Because the devs do NOT communicate what IS and what ISNT possible. The whole "Ooooh, no datamining and everything is a surprise" was cute at the start, but you REALLY need to communicate with your playerbase so they have .. yes, SOMETHING TO LOOK FORWARD TO.

We have no info on hats, we have no info on graphical updates, we have no info on what their focuses will be for this "10-year" plan? Where are the ROADMAPS, hell even INDIE DEVELOPERS have roadmaps they publish every now and then? SE is lacking a huge amount of transparency, this secretive veil makes the playerbase confused not excited. It even makes some think that they have NOTHING being planned and are just winging it till the next expansion according to the formula or whatever they knit together just to keep our subs going.

Why people stay could be a mixture of anything from "Sunk cost fallacy" due to us building communities, having friends in the game, achieving a lot over the years, having a house you want to keep. If its exhausting to watch then don't watch it or the threads that are full of critique? Critique improves the build. If you see a shakey pillar in the foundation of a house, you go at them until they fix it or that house might crumble down in the future.
There's been plenty of constructive criticism, but they haven't picked up on it and just go their own way. Nobody asked for Viper changes, nobody asked for these BLM changes.
So until they give us some transparency, I'm afraid it will keep getting more and more toxic.

"there’s nothing the devs could do to satisfy the people who claim the game is ‘dead’"

To say that they cannot be satisfied implies the developers have been trying to satisfy them. By doing what, exactly? Telling people to play Monster Hunter, when they ask for content? Removing BLM's timers? Increasing patch cycles? Keeping the same formula after 10 years?

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Originally Posted by brinn12

"there’s nothing the devs could do to satisfy the people who claim the game is ‘dead’"

To say that they cannot be satisfied implies the developers have been trying to satisfy them. By doing what, exactly? Telling people to play Monster Hunter, when they ask for content? Removing BLM's timers? Increasing patch cycles? Keeping the same formula after 10 years?

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I’ll give you an example: Throughout Endwalker, one of the most common complaints was the lack of a field operation. People brought it up constantly. Then, when the devs announced that a field operation would be coming in Dawntrail, the complaints didn’t stop—they just shifted. Now, people are upset that it’s not coming soon enough.

To me, this starts to feel unrealistic. If the devs could have released a field operation in Endwalker without compromising other content, I’m sure they would have. But these things take time, resources, and careful planning. Now, instead of acknowledging that, the demand has simply changed to ‘we want it sooner.’

This is just one example of many. If people truly want to be constructive, I wish they’d take a step back and try to be a little more reasonable—or at least acknowledge that the devs aren’t personally out to get them. It’s okay to critique, but by grounding those critiques in reality and recognize the effort that goes into creating the content we enjoy I think that would improve communication for everyone and not harm the game by creating an echo chamber of ever escalating negativity.

Anyone who has a positive opinion that I disagree with is a white knight, and anyone who has a negative opinion that I disagree with is a doomer or a black knight.

Jokes aside, we don’t really know where people are coming from. Are some people like the fanboys who will act as if something they like is completely perfect? Are some haters who will jump at the chance to say something bad about anything they dislike? Or are they people who just happen to like a lot of things about the game right now, or dislike a lot of things right now? And there’s also the people who only really say something when they have a complaint.

We gotta just do our best to talk without being weird so we can share our opinions. Even if we don’t agree on so many things, it’s probably helpful for the devs to know that, for example, some people really like the more challenging msq encounters while others either hate them or are even walled off by them.

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Originally Posted by Wasselin

I’ll give you an example: Throughout Endwalker, one of the most common complaints was the lack of a field operation. People brought it up constantly. Then, when the devs announced that a field operation would be coming in Dawntrail, the complaints didn’t stop—they just shifted. Now, people are upset that it’s not coming soon enough.

To me, this starts to feel unrealistic. If the devs could have released a field operation in Endwalker without compromising other content, I’m sure they would have. But these things take time, resources, and careful planning. Now, instead of acknowledging that, the demand has simply changed to ‘we want it sooner.’

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Then you have misunderstood the criticisms, i fear. People asked for a moderately grinding bit of content early in the expansion (something that is kind of an MMORPG staple), which the field operations is. Something they can spend hours in, if they want to, to work towards any kind of goal.
Now the first bit of content that allows you to spend a lot of time in (and that is not a room with boss raid) comes a year after the expansion release, which is definitely too late for a content that is designed to be played over a longer period of time. Non-Raid players will have had 11 months of no real repeatable battle content at this point. 11 months is a damn long time.

If CS3 had released something else in the meantime, like for example a Deep Dungeon in 7.1, or a smaller relic step, then those kinds of complaints would have been somewhat mitigated. Its not that the players want "field operations" sooner, they want "something to play" sooner than a year after expansion release.
Hope that makes sense!

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Originally Posted by ovIm

Then you have misunderstood the criticisms, i fear. People asked for a moderately grinding bit of content early in the expansion (something that is kind of an MMORPG staple), which the field operations is. Something they can spend hours in, if they want to, to work towards any kind of goal.
Now the first bit of content that allows you to spend a lot of time in (and that is not a room with boss raid) comes a year after the expansion release, which is definitely too late for a content that is designed to be played over a longer period of time. Non-Raid players will have had 11 months of no real repeatable battle content at this point. 11 months is a damn long time.

If CS3 had released something else in the meantime, like for example a Deep Dungeon in 7.1, or a smaller relic step, then those kinds of complaints would have been somewhat mitigated. Its not that the players want "field operations" sooner, they want "something to play" sooner than a year after expansion release.
Hope that makes sense!

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Don’t forget that releasing a deep dungeon in patch 6.3 didn’t seem to mitigate anything for those who wanted a field operation.

It doesn't clear anything up for me that people requesting a field operation in Endwalker shifted their complaints to asking for it sooner once it was announced. While it’s fine to express a desire for it to come sooner, the underlying issue is that many still don’t acknowledge the reality that these things take time to develop. The implicit criticism seems to be that the developers have a field operation ready to go but are choosing not to release it, which feels like an unfair assumption. In practice, it simply appears to me that people are looking for anything to criticize.

It’s important to give feedback, but it’s equally important to be reasonable and recognize the constraints of development.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

When you have a probable gil seller with a dozen accounts constantly making threads trying to convince people to quit, things aren't exactly normal.

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Pretty sure I heard "quit the game" wayyyy more from the white knight than the other guy. Isn't that all you guys said all the time?

People used to leave constructive criticism, but there's only so much they can take being ignored by the devs before they don't bother with it anymore.

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Originally Posted by Wasselin

I’ll give you an example: Throughout Endwalker, one of the most common complaints was the lack of a field operation. People brought it up constantly. Then, when the devs announced that a field operation would be coming in Dawntrail, the complaints didn’t stop—they just shifted. Now, people are upset that it’s not coming soon enough.

To me, this starts to feel unrealistic. If the devs could have released a field operation in Endwalker without compromising other content, I’m sure they would have. But these things take time, resources, and careful planning. Now, instead of acknowledging that, the demand has simply changed to ‘we want it sooner.’

This is just one example of many. If people truly want to be constructive, I wish they’d take a step back and try to be a little more reasonable—or at least acknowledge that the devs aren’t personally out to get them. It’s okay to critique, but by grounding those critiques in reality and recognize the effort that goes into creating the content we enjoy I think that would improve communication for everyone and not harm the game by creating an echo chamber of ever escalating negativity.

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The expansions before Dawntrail were all financial successes for Square Enix. You mentioned that things take time and resources, but SE has repeatedly shown that it has no intention of reinvesting those profits back into FFXIV. First they removed 15-week patches, then 16, and then 17. Despite being highly profitable, the game lacks resources.

Stormblood was released in late June, and Eureka arrived in March with patch 4.25. If you apply the same timeline to Dawntrail, the issue becomes clear: we haven’t received patch 7.2, when by this point in previous expansions, we should be in .25, maybe 1 or 2 weeks behind it. What did the majority of the playerbase get in exchange for waiting two extra months for the Operations Field? Nothing.

People are getting louder with time due to SE doubling down on their decisions of delaying and recycling content, but none of these complaints are actually new. People do not complain because they want new content. They complain because they want new content released at a reasonable pace. As someone mentioned above, if you think complaining about time between patches is a shift, you're misunderstanding the situation.

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Originally Posted by Wasselin

It doesn't clear anything up for me that people requesting a field operation in Endwalker shifted their complaints to asking for it sooner once it was announced. While it’s fine to express a desire for it to come sooner, the underlying issue is that many still don’t acknowledge the reality that these things take time to develop. The implicit criticism seems to be that the developers have a field operation ready to go but are choosing not to release it, which feels like an unfair assumption. In practice, it simply appears to me that people are looking for anything to criticize.

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How is it unfair but your assumption that people are just looking for anything to criticize isn't? You're just biased.
The devs are the one who choose to prioritize other contents before Field Operation. Why is it our fault when we ask for it to be released sooner? They already know people have been asking for it since endwalker.

White Knight <------------------ still loves the game and defends it to the grave.

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Originally Posted by AshtonCrowe

Just jealous we got drip, You white knights got . . what . . ? Gold trim silver plating?


I rest my case!

-Laughs in Ebony Plating with Ruby Red Trim-

https://youtu.be/fGTXTzAvthM

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Paladin > Dark Knight 4ever

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Originally Posted by Kozh

How is it unfair but your assumption that people are just looking for anything to criticize isn't? You're just biased.
The devs are the one who choose to prioritize other contents before Field Operation. Why is it our fault when we ask for it to be released sooner? They already know people have been asking for it since endwalker.

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I’m pointing out a pattern I’ve observed where critiques often shift without acknowledging the realities of development. For example, people asked for a field operation in Endwalker, and when it was announced for Dawntrail, the criticism shifted to it not coming soon enough. That’s not to say the feedback is invalid, but the goalposts are moving. Not everyone, but some people, what this thread calls Black Knights, criticize everything in bad faith.

You’re right that the devs prioritize certain content over others, and that’s part of the challenge. They have to balance resources, time, and player expectations across a wide range of content. My point isn’t that players shouldn’t ask for things sooner—it’s that we should also recognize that development takes time, and not every delay is a choice made lightly.

I’m not saying the critiques are unfair because they’re critiques—I’m saying they can feel unfair when they don’t account for the constraints the devs are working under. It’s fine to want more content sooner, but it’s also worth considering why certain things take the time they do. Black Knights however do not do this, and simply see another opportunity to tear the devs down. At least, from my perspective.

And you’re absolutely right—everyone is biased, including me. My bias is toward supporting and boosting the things I love about the game and respectfully critiquing what I see as detracting from it's success.

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Originally Posted by Voryn

Anyone who has a positive opinion that I disagree with is a white knight, and anyone who has a negative opinion that I disagree with is a doomer or a black knight.

Jokes aside, we don’t really know where people are coming from. Are some people like the fanboys who will act as if something they like is completely perfect? Are some haters who will jump at the chance to say something bad about anything they dislike? Or are they people who just happen to like a lot of things about the game right now, or dislike a lot of things right now? And there’s also the people who only really say something when they have a complaint.

We gotta just do our best to talk without being weird so we can share our opinions. Even if we don’t agree on so many things, it’s probably helpful for the devs to know that, for example, some people really like the more challenging msq encounters while others either hate them or are even walled off by them.

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You! How DARE you be reasonable and moderate? :P

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

This forum have been a war zone between the “white knight” and “doom sayers”. Everyday “new post” are drown by those threads. It is weird that the other forum actually have better discussion going on

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I just bumped into someone on Tumblr who is excited about 7.2 and it was like a record scratch, because it has become so popular and faddish to hate on XIV in so many places. Seeing someone actually be genuinely looking forward to it was a reminder that not every place is like the OF.

I think the point is that "black nights" are Davids attacking the Goliath game and its company ($5.6 billion, publicly traded, which if JP corp gov is anything like western means they legally bound to put shareholders first) , for taking our sub and expansion money, then not delivering, and won't even give us a refund on the days we don't want to use.
Meanwhile "White nights" are cannibalizing their fellow players... fellow players who actually just want to stay in the game and be their friends, and who frankly often are clearly signalling that they are down and don't need any more kicking. White Knights are kicking a weaker target, and it looks silly. Most White Knigths are not even arguing the points, they are just saying "Yeah I agree it sucks to be you fot the following reasons...". Some of which are almost gas-lighting, and they mean it.

(Mostly, I myself have been pretty bitter and cannibalized those fellow high end players that have told me to get good, like savage, or shutup/leave. But I'm at least not stupid enough to seriously try and defend myself for it after cooling off the next day. But most 'black knights' have not had the same close quarters experiences with some high end players that I have, I hope, and so are not excavating that particular chip on their shoulder. They are just trying to sue Goliath for a little mercy.)

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Originally Posted by Wasselin

I’m pointing out a pattern I’ve observed where critiques often shift without acknowledging the realities of development. For example, people asked for a field operation in Endwalker, and when it was announced for Dawntrail, the criticism shifted to it not coming soon enough. That’s not to say the feedback is invalid, but the goalposts are moving. Not everyone, but some people, what this thread calls Black Knights, criticize everything in bad faith.

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What realities? The fact that they have been taking longer time between patches while simultaneously cutting contents? Like I said, they have control of which content they want to focus on first. They could've give us field operation before cosmic exploration, but that's not the case here. So why are we surprised that people criticize the content release schedule? You're basically asking fo people to shut up just because we will get field operation.

Also, you don't 100% know either if the reason they release it in 7.25 is because it's not ready yet. So your argument is based on assumption as well. For all we know, they've finished with the first stage already but decided to stick with the same schedule as previous expansion because we know cbu3 love to follow their formula.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

People used to leave constructive criticism, but there's only so much they can take being ignored by the devs before they don't bother with it anymore.

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Not getting the response someone feels is needed to their feedback doesn't mean that they were ignored by the developers. No development team is going to have the time to respond to every piece of feedback received when their game has hundreds of thousands of active players, each with their own opinion about what is right, what is wrong, and what changes will make the game better.

As for people not continuing to leave constructive criticism, it only needs to be posted once. Repeating it over and over isn't constructive; it's attention-seeking.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

How is it unfair but your assumption that people are just looking for anything to criticize isn't? You're just biased.
The devs are the one who choose to prioritize other contents before Field Operation. Why is it our fault when we ask for it to be released sooner? They already know people have been asking for it since endwalker.

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Would you be happier if every Field Operations release ended up like the Pagos release, with players abandoning the content very quickly because it was so badly flawed by the rush to get it released according to schedule instead of releasing it when it was ready?

Sometimes it's just not ready to be released sooner.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Would you be happier if every Field Operations release ended up like the Pagos release, with players abandoning the content very quickly because it was so badly flawed by the rush to get it released according to schedule instead of releasing it when it was ready?

Sometimes it's just not ready to be released sooner.

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This is fine, but I feel like people forget that the community was once okay with the longer patch cycles, under the belief that it would result in a better product. CB3 had something called "goodwill" back then, from the majority of its fans. Back to back baffling and poor decisions between DT's MSQ, the utter debacle that was the blacklist, the continued deletion of class identity while also doubling down on mistakes like PCT's overtuning, keeping fights or jobs imbalanced despite the insane homogenization, continued ignoring of annoying glitches or QoL issues, all while stuffing full a cash shop along with SE's glorious leader going on about NFTs and everything else absolutely obliterated that goodwill where it stood.