Regulators principles

Hi fellow players and lore fans !

I was asking myself a few questions about the principles behind the regulators and its actual effects.

We know their basic function is storing souls, and with the souls of the deceased they can live as long as they have souls stored in their central unit. We know too with the Arcadian they can store souls of monsters and beasts, and that's where I'm coming from:

it looks to me kinda the same thing as what happens between Ysayle and Shiva ?

Even if Ysayle needed some crystals in some cases to compensate the aether she did not have in sufficiently large quantities... (though if I remember correctly, after passing through the barrier of Azys Lla, she didn't have crystals to transform and destroy that empire airship, so not to say it's kind of a plothole, but crystals don't seem always needed aside from bringing the missing aether)

Though I'm still wondering why and how the body of the fighter in the Arcadian can adapt to such physical changes, even if the price to pay is great, it seems to be soul enhancement or "fusion" of souls like that of the reaper and its master. In the case of the reaper it seems more like the avatar or void creatures is trapped or called through the soul crystal...

The primal Shiva wasn't 'Ysayle combining with the soul of Shiva'. In fact it's an actual plot point that the soul of Shiva is directly accounted for and observed, and that she doesn't have it; Shiva's soul is still with Hraesvelgr. The primal Shiva is Ysayle summoning a primal just the same as any other, except in her case she believed herself to be the figure reincarnate instead of that figure being external.

Also, she transformed into Shiva that final time by using her Crystal of Light, which showed that she was in fact a 'chosen by Hydaelyn Warrior of Light' and not just a revolutionary cult leader. Again, this is an actual plot point. (She also didn't really destroy the airship, just damaged it enough to force a landing while failing to really harm anything or anyone inside, but that's a separate complaint.)


You are right, though, that the closest thing we've seen to the Arcadion's fighters before now is Reaper's Enshroud form, but the smaller details don't line up enough to use it as a comparison point. While we still don't know if the Reaper's Avatar is inside the soul crystal or if the soul crystal is a 'link' to the Avatar who's just off in the Thirteenth, we do know that Reaper is a stupid dangerous job and that the Enshroud form is the most dangerous part of it. It's largely for different reasons, though; the Arcadion's fighters can control those souls just fine and just happen to develop long-term health issues because of it, while Reapers constantly have to control the Avatar to stop it eating their soul, aether, and/or possibly body.

I quoted Ysayle cuz she seemed to be a special case among primal invocations but I guess it's more complicated due to those plot holes as you explained

But indeed, I think Arcadion's fighter would be closer to reaper's enshrouded as I guessed. And I agree with you, it's an absurdly dangerous job. But to me it's dangerous because of the avatar link. Not that I want a lore reason for everything, but what other part of the job could be dangerous with the reaper ? Its basic skills with scythes makes it a basic fighter, maybe with its dashing skill when it jumps through its gates ? or its black energy spheres ? I'm not this much familiar with that job

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Astralia

but I guess it's more complicated due to those plot holes as you explained

---

This isn't what a plot hole is. It is the opposite of a plot hole, in fact; it's a plot point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Astralia

Hi fellow players and lore fans !

I was asking myself a few questions about the principles behind the regulators and its actual effects.

We know their basic function is storing souls, and with the souls of the deceased they can live as long as they have souls stored in their central unit. We know too with the Arcadian they can store souls of monsters and beasts, and that's where I'm coming from:

it looks to me kinda the same thing as what happens between Ysayle and Shiva ?

Even if Ysayle needed some crystals in some cases to compensate the aether she did not have in sufficiently large quantities... (though if I remember correctly, after passing through the barrier of Azys Lla, she didn't have crystals to transform and destroy that empire airship, so not to say it's kind of a plothole, but crystals don't seem always needed aside from bringing the missing aether)

Though I'm still wondering why and how the body of the fighter in the Arcadian can adapt to such physical changes, even if the price to pay is great, it seems to be soul enhancement or "fusion" of souls like that of the reaper and its master. In the case of the reaper it seems more like the avatar or void creatures is trapped or called through the soul crystal...

---

The others in this thread have already addressed it, but you're operating on a completely different set of facts from what's presented in the game to manufacture evidence for a parallel that doesn't exist, and dismissing any textual evidence contrary to it as a 'plot hole' instead of, well, 'things that were plainly presented in the game'. This makes it difficult to understand your question as the premise isn't factual.

If I am understanding correctly, though, I would assert that the 'uncharted waters' of it all is very intentional on a narrative level, as is everything in Alexandria: we are in completely new territory and the kinds of soul-crafting and technology they're currently doing there are beyond the wildest imaginings of anyone on the Source before the Alexandrians arrived. This is kind of a major theme in the latter third of the Dawntrail MSQ; while it leaves a few open questions on the precise morality and necessity of it, it's also very clear that the narrative considers the sheer scale of the soul manipulation in Alexandria as an affront to nature, and the whole premise of Arcadion is that we're entering on a wager that we can end the practice in the arena. This is all to say that the mechanisms of this technology are completely novel by design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vallavia

This is kind of a major theme in the latter third of the Dawntrail MSQ; while it leaves a few open questions on the precise morality and necessity of it, it's also very clear that the narrative considers the sheer scale of the soul manipulation in Alexandria as an affront to nature, and the whole premise of Arcadion is that we're entering on a wager that we can end the practice in the arena. This is all to say that the mechanisms of this technology are completely novel by design.

---

While we haven't discussed it here, the social elements also make it very clear that even the parallels we do have do more to show how different things are than any similarities.

Like I said, the closest comparison to the feral soul situation is Reapers, even if the specific details are different; the gist of it should apply, in the same way that we can generally find a lot of parallels between Vipers, Samurai and Dragoons. Yet Reapers are loathed and horrified pariahs from every society; the Arcadion's fighters are celebrities. It's not just that the material norms are mostly out the window, it's that the social norms mostly are too.

As long as the "fusions" don't cause mental issues I can't really see the use of feral souls as a bad thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by innis31

As long as the "fusions" don't cause mental issues I can't really see the use of feral souls as a bad thing.

---

Have you done the Arcadion raids at all? Because they're literally all about this. Nevermind the Resident Evil-style horror show of Yuweyawata Field Station.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dikatis

Have you done the Arcadion raids at all? Because they're literally all about this. Nevermind the Resident Evil-style horror show of Yuweyawata Field Station.

---

Oh, but those aren't mental issues. (...mostly; that second Yuweyawata boss isn't doing so hot, but that might be a different problem.) Those are squarely on the physical, or are caused by an entirely different vein of experiments.

The Arcadion's fighters are facing a condition that's poorly understood and largely kept under wraps, but all evidence we have suggests the symptoms are physical. (And soul-ular, it's kinda hard to tell if souls count as 'physical' enough to be said to be exhibiting physical symptoms in FFXIV.) That's not mental, and for some reason, that seem to matter to this person.

Well when you could upload yourself into a new body the physical would mean less then the mental but thats more of a transhumanism thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

Oh, but those aren't mental issues. (...mostly; that second Yuweyawata boss isn't doing so hot, but that might be a different problem.) Those are squarely on the physical, or are caused by an entirely different vein of experiments.

The Arcadion's fighters are facing a condition that's poorly understood and largely kept under wraps, but all evidence we have suggests the symptoms are physical. (And soul-ular, it's kinda hard to tell if souls count as 'physical' enough to be said to be exhibiting physical symptoms in FFXIV.) That's not mental, and for some reason, that seem to matter to this person.

---

Considering she wants to steal our soul to make hers whole, it makes me wonder if they're doing some form of physical ailment not dissimilar to self-tempering to the beast soul's primary aether signature. While I truthfully believe this raid series will end with us taking down the Chairman of the Arcadion because this is a wrestling story, a compelling side-story or twist would be finding a way to fix the problem without tearing down the entire Arcadion from the top down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Remarus

Considering she wants to steal our soul to make hers whole, it makes me wonder if they're doing some form of physical ailment not dissimilar to self-tempering to the beast soul's primary aether signature. While I truthfully believe this raid series will end with us taking down the Chairman of the Arcadion because this is a wrestling story, a compelling side-story or twist would be finding a way to fix the problem without tearing down the entire Arcadion from the top down.

---

I'm guessing we will to some degree, because... well, we aren't the type of people, and in a type of game, that would let such a toxic status quo continue, but at the same time it's also established that the Arcadion is a big part of Alexandria's culture. I suspect the entire thing is a metaphor for substance abuse and the treatment of athletes in professional sport, and from that lens it makes sense that we won't shut it down; all the problems with the NFL are horrible, but you can't just solve them by shutting down football.

My guess is that our own participation will lead to the solution: we're winning by raw personal skill (and seven other people('s souls) doing the same), and we don't just prove the superiority of that over the feral soul transformations, we also prove that people will still be interested in watching.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by innis31

Well when you could upload yourself into a new body the physical would mean less then the mental but thats more of a transhumanism thing.

---

That's also not what the Endless are, and even if it was, you might remember that we shut that system down.

What about Estinien's case ?
He was possessed by Nidhogg, and during the final fight in 3.3, Nidhogg could take a hybrid form with mostly Estinien body in appearance, and his wings.
Since then, Estinien can call forth Nidhogg's power (I think it is the case ?).
Besides, did Nidhogg's remaining Aether fuse with Estinien's when he bathed in his blood and been possessed such a long time (maybe it enhanced his strength above what he could have achieved alone without that power/possession or bathing in Nidhogg's blood) ?
Could he take a hybrid form similar to the Arcadion's fighters if he wanted to ?

I always thought that the two (Endless/regulators) were different systems like becoming an Endless is called going to the cloud and the regulators was kinda like a save function for the mind. So I imagine that an upload to one of the many robots that are around isn't a problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Astralia

What about Estinien's case ?
He was possessed by Nidhogg, and during the final fight in 3.3, Nidhogg could take a hybrid form with mostly Estinien body in appearance, and his wings.
Since then, Estinien can call forth Nidhogg's power (I think it is the case ?).
Besides, did Nidhogg's remaining Aether fuse with Estinien's when he bathed in his blood and been possessed such a long time (maybe it enhanced his strength above what he could have achieved alone without that power/possession or bathing in Nidhogg's blood) ?
Could he take a hybrid form similar to the Arcadion's fighters if he wanted to ?

---

I think that sounds believable there are myths about bathing in dragons blood and gaining power and while he should be able to transform transformation like that is reserved for the enemy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Astralia

What about Estinien's case ?
He was possessed by Nidhogg, and during the final fight in 3.3, Nidhogg could take a hybrid form with mostly Estinien body in appearance, and his wings.
Since then, Estinien can call forth Nidhogg's power (I think it is the case ?).
Besides, did Nidhogg's remaining Aether fuse with Estinien's when he bathed in his blood and been possessed such a long time (maybe it enhanced his strength above what he could have achieved alone without that power/possession or bathing in Nidhogg's blood) ?
Could he take a hybrid form similar to the Arcadion's fighters if he wanted to ?

---

I feel that he could transform, but that without full on access to an unsundered soul like Nidhogg's it would take a toll on him. As physical transformations seem to use a lot of aether. For even not every Ancient was able to physically transform if Hythlodaeus was being truthful and not extremely modest. Though Estinien seems to have kept the ability to use temporary physical clones of himself after said possession and do a huge stardiver/drg lb3. It's been a while since I saw what he exactly does to finish the fight with that experimental ultima weapon in that echo flashback.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by innis31

I think that sounds believable there are myths about bathing in dragons blood and gaining power and while he should be able to transform transformation like that is reserved for the enemy.

---

It's more drinking dragon's blood. We've seen several times in the MSQ and side stories about Ishgardians who drank the blood and transformed into various types of scalekin/dragons. There's a quest series in the Firmament about a guy who turned into one and couldn't turn back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SannaR

I feel that he could transform, but that without full on access to an unsundered soul like Nidhogg's it would take a toll on him. As physical transformations seem to use a lot of aether. For even not every Ancient was able to physically transform if Hythlodaeus was being truthful and not extremely modest. Though Estinien seems to have kept the ability to use temporary physical clones of himself after said possession and do a huge stardiver/drg lb3. It's been a while since I saw what he exactly does to finish the fight with that experimental ultima weapon in that echo flashback.

---

Also, the guy can destroy a cannon the size of a building with just a spear, and that's on the LOWER end of his stunts. I don't think he needs the extra juice of a potentially dangerous transformation, guy seems plenty powerful as-is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Remarus

It's more drinking dragon's blood. We've seen several times in the MSQ and side stories about Ishgardians who drank the blood and transformed into various types of scalekin/dragons. There's a quest series in the Firmament about a guy who turned into one and couldn't turn back.

---

I was more referring to the irl myths of dragon slayers besides between those that drank dragon blood and the one guy who bathed in it who came out ahead.

Indeed, Estinien seem powerful enough as is, I just thought of him at the last moment as it seemed believable to me as close enough to Arcadion's fighter to some extent.

But to answer SannaR, isn't it the contrary if we consider Nidhogg's unsundered soul ? Even if with each rejoining, every soul should have taken back a bit of their soul on the shards destroyed (I'm not expert on this part of the lore, sorry for my potential misunderstanding), and Estinien somehow survived Nidhogg's possession and actually has full on access to his soul, or at least his remaining aether lingering in the form of souvenirs/emotions dwelling now in Estinien's aether (that's what I kinda understood actually), but if Nidhogg had been sundered, it should have been easier for Estinien to bear with it and he wouldn't have full on access to his powers but part of it ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Astralia

Indeed, Estinien seem powerful enough as is, I just thought of him at the last moment as it seemed believable to me as close enough to Arcadion's fighter to some extent.

But to answer SannaR, isn't it the contrary if we consider Nidhogg's unsundered soul ? Even if with each rejoining, every soul should have taken back a bit of their soul on the shards destroyed (I'm not expert on this part of the lore, sorry for my potential misunderstanding), and Estinien somehow survived Nidhogg's possession and actually has full on access to his soul, or at least his remaining aether lingering in the form of souvenirs/emotions dwelling now in Estinien's aether (that's what I kinda understood actually), but if Nidhogg had been sundered, it should have been easier for Estinien to bear with it and he wouldn't have full on access to his powers but part of it ?

---

Well possession in the game seems to take two forms. One that voidsent and ascians do where they take over a person and pretend to be said person. The other is what went on with Estinien. Where it was more of a battle of wills. As both times he gets possessed by Nidhogg Estinien wasn't doing his due diligence of keeping a mental guard up against a few thousand years old unsundered being yapping in your ear every day about how they're going to posesse your ass just like every other person who has held your prestigious position and to then use you to defeat your allies. Dragons in general are different and work different than most other beings on the planet. Midgardsormr and the 1st brood however have and extra detail in that they aren't native to Etheirys as Nidhogg et al were being transported through space as eggs on their dad's back.

We also know that as long as they have an eye of another dragon that they can have a physical body. After we separate Nidhogg's eyes from Estinien it is hinted that a very small part of him was leftover. Now they haven't explained if that was the blood on his lance or if a little soul fusion happened or what exactly. Cause again dragons seem to do everything differently even when they die. So he not only has a smidge of Ratatoskr's blood in him but essence of Nidhogg if only hinted at.

I'm not sure if he does have full access to things he did while having been possessed as some of that is just dragoon crap. I also am not sure if it had been a sundered vs sundered situation if it would have been different as it was more of a battle of wills than the whole "Oh I can't posess you cause your soul is dense" thing that seems to be what determines if you can be "easily" possessed by a voidsent or ascian.

I agree with SannaR.

Judging by what Varshahn/Vitra says regarding Estinien, Estinien is as much Nidhogg as he is an elezan man. I think the fusion of their aether is what happened, and everything in game hints that much of the reason behind Estinien's incredible boost in power is because he's permanently infused by the aether of one of the first brood.

Regulators, interestingly, would never had to account for dragons and their unique physiology since the dragons only exist on the sundered Source. But I do wonder if a fighter tries to use a dragon like a feral soul in a future fight.