Does azem knows about the final days even before it happened

i think similar threads have been made but i cant find any that is specifically talking about the info we get from pandaemonium.
im reunlocking pandae on my alt and it just occurred to me the way themis talks about azem seems like azem can see the future or have an inkling of it.

1. how azem says someone else will accompany themis' investigation of pandae (by which azem means us, the WoL)
2. themis saying "i very much look forward to speaking with azem upon my return, i cannot help but wonder how much of this he foresaw" after defeating hephaistos
3. lahabrea confirming that azem knows whats unfolding in pandae

has it ever been confirmed or hinted anywhere that azem in whatever capacity knows whats going to happen? (the sundering and all that) i also read on wiki that
"azem did not respond to venat's invitation to join her in summoning hydaelyn"
if this is true it sounds to me like azem is trying to keep the future we, the WoL are in as it is, just like how before going to elpis elidibus in the crystal tower said that we arent there to change the past for the future that we want to save wont be the same if we should, something along those lines

my friend said that most likely its venat sharing what she knows from the WoL in elpis to azem, but the thing in pandaemonium happened after we went to elpis and after we defeated hydaelyn

Not certain there is a firm answer to this, although I know there are some here (on the forum) who will likely have a better idea.

However, we DO know, from Themis' comments, that Azem was aware of the Warrior of Light's presence in Elpis - and that 'we' were claiming to be Azem's familiar, as well as going around helping people; we also know that Azem found it really funny when made aware of it.

But otherwise, it isn't really clear - some of the dialogue in 'Pandemonium' implies that Azem somehow knew their reincarnation would be present to help a younger Elidibus-as-Themis, hence Themis being present to meet 'us' when we arrive the second time... but the story didn't elaborate on this.

So yeah, it's at least *implied* that Azem had some form of insight into the future.

I think there have been a few hints that Azem may have known and may have set up some dominoes, but nothing so concrete as to rule out alternative explanations.

Pandaemonium is an especially strong example. But whether we're supposed to tie to that to (possible) references in Dawntrail to dominoes they may have set up...? We'll see.

They originally set up Azem was someone who - as the Warrior of Light is wont to do - walked their own impossible path instead of choosing a side. You pointed out the meeting of Venat's group where they say that all invitations to Azem have gone unanswered, perhaps supporting that hypothesis.

If we're meant to connect this to Dawntrail, the artifacts and events in question might also support the "Azem wanted this future to remain on track" hypothesis.

However, does that preclude that Venat had already privately shared what she knew with her successor? Or that perhaps she advised them to walk a third path, knowing that her role as Zodiark's counterbalance would in all probability be twisted into a 12,000-year attempt to prevent the sealing off of the path leading to the defeat of the Endsinger, resulting in the near-simultaneous death of all three? I would say no.

However-however, I think you might be able to - just as easily - build a house of cards that Azem manipulated all these tragedies and we're slowly approaching a climax where we confront our ultimate adversary: our ancient "self". (Lol.)

However-however-however, if we're still using plot beats from the pre-Endwalker era, I'm kinda rooting for good-guy-Azem (who is proud of what we've become) vs. cosmic insanity featuring the legacy of Athena and Ultima Prime.

(Insane Headcanon: Azem somehow deliberately nudged pre-Zodiark Elidibus and the Warrior of Light's crossing of paths, knowing how likely it was that, one day, each would make unfair assumptions about the other - however functionally accurate they were under the circumstances - and that this was the only opportunity they would ever have to experience one another as something accurate. Would it have had an effect on history, or would it have been solely a private sentimentality? Who could say.)

(Insane Headcanon: Azem avoided encountering us at all costs so knowing who we "once were" would not disrupt who we were independent of them.)

Wouldn't it be funny if they just bypassed all of this and retconned Azem into the earliest manifestation of far-reaching prophetic "Echo"? (No.)

If you spell MEZAYA backwards it says, AY, AZEM!

If it wasn't for a prediction pertaining to Pandaemonium, I would have assumed that Venat did end up telling Azem about the future in some way after all, despite her initial reservations about telling anyone... but since we hadn't gone to Pandaemonium yet when we met Venat, we couldn't tell Venat about it and thus she couldn't have passed that along to Azem either, so there's got to be more to it than just that.

Agreed; while a lot of [Venat told Azem what she knew] stuff might fit, Venat (ostensibly) still only had knowledge up to the Warrior of Light's Patch 6.00 LV87. She might have had some time between the Warrior of Light's departure and re-arrival to work out some projections, but it'd be odd if she was able to know that, during later-to-come the Final Days, a post-Pandaemonium Erichthonios would create a crystal that would lead the Warrior of Light (in yet another loop) to a Pandaemonium that was only currently going sideways and attracting Themis's attention.

Themis says that Azem was going to accompany him on the investigation, but bowed out at the last second, claiming that it would attract too much attention for them to go together and predicting that Themis would find a falling star (ostensibly the Warrior of Light) to take their place.

Themis says at the time that Azem has a history odd little foresights like this.

Quote:

---

While I could not comprehend 【their】 meaning at the time, I believe now I understand. 【They do】 have a way of being right about these things. Even so, 【their】 hints of what to come are generally more cryptic.

---

What meaning to make of that, however... Is it nothing? Or is it everything? I mean, Themis also says that Venat told like, everyone, the vague basics of meeting an odd little dude with a connection to Azem, and that Azem was tickled to learn that there could be something so similar to them, with so similar a dedication to the star. Would that be enough for Azem to work out some prediction that they'd return for Pandaemonium? Or somehow sense their impending arrival?

I feel like an elephant in the room with 'Azem foresaw the End of Days' as a theory (which this ultimately is at this point even if it's a plausible one) is that, if they did have this information, what did they do with it?

All we really know is that they left the Convocation in response to the Zodiark plan, and they never picked up the phone for Venat's crew. That first one seems to be an explicit rejection, although we don't know on what criteria, while the second one is a total blank; there's not even an explicit rejection, or even a confirmation that they're alive (although that's a safe bet), just that they didn't pick up the phone. So, if we take the assumption that they knew about the End of Days to be true, what could they have been doing with that information?

My reflexive thoughts on it:

• Well, they didn't take part in trying to stop it, perhaps knowing that was impossible.
• They probably rejected being with Team Zodiark through knowing they were going to be tempered and become the Ascians. (The whole 'sacrificing half the population' thing probably doesn't help.)
• They probably didn't join up with Venat's group, knowing that they wouldn't need the help. (The act of the Sundeirng probably doesn't help either, but at that point we're probably in 'lesser evil' territory.)
• In both cases, they could've realized that the shards of Azem would be important in a way that would only work if they didn't join with either group, but that might be thinking too far ahead.
• 'They were dealing with some Secret Third Thing' is technically on the table, but I kinda get the feeling that if they knew THAT stuff was coming, it'd take some real wacky prioritization.
• There's also the chance they were just sort of... fatalist; they knew that this was going to end their life and world, and that nothing would stop it, so why commit a life to trying?

There was a dev Q&A that answered 'what was Azem doing' with 'Azem is you, so they'd be doing whatever you'd be doing'. And with that angle, them knowing the future and yet doing nothing to avert it makes a weird amount of sense; they know that they're on a clock, and there's nothing they can do to stop it, so they just make sure those last days are as good as they can be, by whatever metric makes sense to you.

My head cannon/tin foil hat theory is that Azem knew a lot more about what was going on with Pandaemonium because Ultima/Auiracite/(Athena kinda) has been an inherited thorn in the side of anyone who held the seat of Azem. So Azem knew that The Heart of Sabik/Athena would still be a problem that not even the Final Days nor The Sundering could not get rid of. Auracite is that nasty. So they tipped Elidibus off to look out for The Warrior of Light -- their legacy that they will help deal with Athena. Azem probably had their arms full, and could not personally deal with Pandaemonium so they left it to their future self.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

(Insane Headcanon: Azem somehow deliberately nudged pre-Zodiark Elidibus and the Warrior of Light's crossing of paths, knowing how likely it was that, one day, each would make unfair assumptions about the other - however functionally accurate they were under the circumstances - and that this was the only opportunity they would ever have to experience one another as something accurate. Would it have had an effect on history, or would it have been solely a private sentimentality? Who could say.)

---

Ngl the thought we'll face another shard as an enemy did cross my mind (and it personally entertains me)so im like trying to see how plausible this "azem set this up" theory would go!

im loving your insane headcanon, i actually somewhat feel this way, like something about this, be it from azem or themis or the writer feels so intentional. especially themis' line
"we shall come to know each other in time i wager, or else why would fate have orchestrated our meeting?"
as if my WoL could ask "you know, right? (about the sundering and how for themis and the WoL itll climax with us facing each other atop the crystal tower)" and themis would just smile or reply with something else cryptic lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

There was a dev Q&A that answered 'what was Azem doing' with 'Azem is you, so they'd be doing whatever you'd be doing'. And with that angle, them knowing the future and yet doing nothing to avert it makes a weird amount of sense; they know that they're on a clock, and there's nothing they can do to stop it, so they just make sure those last days are as good as they can be, by whatever metric makes sense to you.

---

the image of azem i have in my head from what we've been told and additional reading on tales is that he more often than not works on his own rather than with the convocation (or maybe other groups of the ancient) and somewhat could be described as someone who likes to do whatever he wants. so the theory that he is in his own path to keep the future where the WoL came from as it is has plausibility to me. as to his motivation on keeping that future, everything everyone does has always been the betterment of the star but seeing how theres zodiark gang vs hydaelyn gang its obvious not everyone agrees what IS best for the star.

the answer 'Azem is you, so they'd be doing whatever you'd be doing' works both ways it depends on how you view your azem/wol.

I wonder if Azem would have been able to withstand being sundered like Emet & Co, if they put their mind to it, but chose to let themselves be split up anyway, for one reason or another.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by No_Nick_Needed

I wonder if Azem would have been able to withstand being sundered like Emet & Co, if they put their mind to it, but chose to let themselves be split up anyway, for one reason or another.

---

So there's some pretty significant unknowns to that situation that mean that it's hard to tell if this is even possible.

Not only do we not even know how exactly the Three Stooges eluded the sundering, we don't even know who exactly managed it; developer interviews have said it was in some way intentional on Hydaelyn's part, but as I recall it was so nebulous as to possibly be more 'she left them an opening and hoped they'd take it' than anything more active on anybody's part. That fuzziness means that it's basically impossible to say if someone else could've avoided the sundering in the same way.

My gut says that wherever they were, it was somewhere that only the Convocation had access to, but wasn't where all of them would be; that would explain why the three unsundered are all Convocation members, but why the entire Convocation didn't survive. But if that's true, then it means Azem couldn't possibly have been in the 'to-save' crew, because they weren't a member of the Convocation at the time.

I think Azem has foresight. We know that the Echo in the WOL is stronger than most, but WOL still lacks the abilities of foresight, which we do see in others with the Echo (Mikoto specifically, though I do feel WOL shows some foresight w the visions of the 8th calamity). We have already had to fight with Ardbert as the bad guy in 3.x, I am not surprised if we eventually run into an Azem shard that does have foresight, and/or an Azem shard that is an antagonist for various reasons, one if which I can guess is trying to get rid of us before we can attempt any kind of rejoining with them (which I don't think is necessary anyway). Most of the "hints" they give (here is Ardbert who looks like Meteor, here's Themis saying Azem told him you were coming) end up being very obvious in future content. So, could he wrong but to me Azem obviously knows and in his position on the convocation he has already been working on different kinds of teleportation and travel. Space time is probably not a big barrier to the original in setting up some safeguards.