Viper's weapon concept is wasted

The dual wielded and combined modes of the weapon is really cool but the job's skills don't utilize the concept at all. All the switching between the forms is done automatically so it's pretty much just there for visual flair and nothing else. Between that and Gnashing Fang being removed so soon after release, it feels like they had ideas and then kept making changes until the job lost its identity and had been scrambling to make it functional up to and through release.

I was hoping for each mode to have meaning and a need to manually switch between the two, like have actual high-speed GCD attacks with limited weave windows when dual wielded, then have access to buff/debuff upkeep in combined mode. Has anyone else expected the job to be sorta like that?

Yeah my main gripe with the job is that the only reason to exist it has is to showcase how superior PvP-style autocombos are to having everything separate.

The concept... there is none, beyond that. No lore, no nothing. I understand it's a japanese trope they added to the game, but it's so silly to "waste" a whole job on that, instead of just some NPC in the Hildibrand line or something.

At least they ought to make DW much faster (no weaving possible at all) and 2H much slower to compensate, with huge sweeping always-full-AoE hits on every move. And like you say, there ought to be meaning behind the modes. A simple builder/spender might work, although I'd prefer something like:

* In DW mode, you use the left/right autocombos. No weaving. 1.0s GCD, so you got enough to press. Left/right is now fully randomized, no more self-buffs. No positions. As you fight, you build up your meter. Only correctly pressed left/right attacks give meter.
* To switch to 2H mode, you use one of the two 2H moves. They're also 3-hit autocombos that go left/right, but these aren't fully randomized. Each puts a strong debuff on the target, there are six of these (four stackable DoTs that last 60s, a damage-taken increase, a health-drain). The selection of left/right you'll get for the 3-hit autocombo is those debuffs that are missing or have the least time left.
* Unempowered (non-glowing) 2H hits don't apply their debuff.
* Each correct hit costs some of the bar you built up in DW mode.
* Your oGCD weaves are used in 2H mode only. You still double-weave, order is fully random, if done correctly the "opposite" debuff of whatever move you just did is also applied at half duration (e.g. you got step 1 left 2H move, you press that for a 60s DoT #1, you get right->left on the weaves, you do that, you also apply DoT #2 but only for 30s).

I'd keep 2H GCD at 3.5s in this setup actually, since there's no more self-haste it'd feel proper slow.

One big upside of such a setup is that we'd have another class that has no ability to do a fixed rotation. Or rather, it kinda does, but also there's not a single pre-determined button really, it's all dynamic and/or randomized. In return the whole job only needs 6 buttons for its main combat setup, and I far prefer depth over complexity for combat.

I'll admit that I was a little confused not to actually get two modes for dual blades and twinblade to play around as well.

The entire jobs identity is anime swordsman, even the devs mentioned Viper is based on Kirito from Sword Art Online because that's what players have wanted for years. Doesn't get much more anime than dual wielding swords, power-up modes, leather long coats and flash stepping.

I found the job quests to be extremely lacking too, they never explain what reawakening even is or how/why you do it, kinda like how the Reaper job quests never explain how Enshrouding works. Basically, a Viper is a hunter from Turali and we never really go further into it than that.

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Originally Posted by Tizzy_Tormentor

The entire jobs identity is anime swordsman, even the devs mentioned Viper is based on Kirito from Sword Art Online because that's what players have wanted for years. Doesn't get much more anime than dual wielding swords, power-up modes, leather long coats and flash stepping.

I found the job quests to be extremely lacking too, they never explain what reawakening even is or how/why you do it, kinda like how the Reaper job quests never explain how Enshrouding works. Basically, a Viper is a hunter from Turali and we never really go further into it than that.

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Yeah, I remember in a Live Letter they specifically said you would learn about Reawaken during the job quests and yet .....it's just there. The job itself just feels like a visual concept with mechanics added so that it functions. When I'm playing it I know what buttons to press, but thematically it doesn't really feel like I know what I'm doing. It's just big fast flashes.

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

Yeah, I remember in a Live Letter they specifically said you would learn about Reawaken during the job quests and yet .....it's just there. The job itself just feels like a visual concept with mechanics added so that it functions. When I'm playing it I know what buttons to press, but thematically it doesn't really feel like I know what I'm doing. It's just big fast flashes.

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Gonna defend Reawaken because I think it's actually sorta clever with how it's implemented. Each step in the Reawaken the combo are your gauge building GCDs (Fangs, and Coils), so it's like you are revisiting the path you took to access Reawaken -- calling upon what came before, so not only does it work in terms of button consolidation, but it also works thematically. Ouroboros replacing the Reawaken button is also a nice thematic touch -- the head eats its tail. I think they should lean harder into these ouroboros/mobius strip ideas, but I think it's a bit of a hard sell

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Originally Posted by Tizzy_Tormentor

The entire jobs identity is anime swordsman, even the devs mentioned Viper is based on Kirito from Sword Art Online because that's what players have wanted for years.

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Sadly faced with two choices how to react to this (alleged) "demand", the devs did not go for inviting the players to the SQEX HQ and individually slapping them with a trout.

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Originally Posted by Tizzy_Tormentor

The entire jobs identity is anime swordsman, even the devs mentioned Viper is based on Kirito from Sword Art Online because that's what players have wanted for years. Doesn't get much more anime than dual wielding swords, power-up modes, leather long coats and flash stepping.

I found the job quests to be extremely lacking too, they never explain what reawakening even is or how/why you do it, kinda like how the Reaper job quests never explain how Enshrouding works. Basically, a Viper is a hunter from Turali and we never really go further into it than that.

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On the other hand they specifically mentioned a more "western" design counterpart to ninja... And people immediately pointed fingers at Assassin's Creed. So what was it about then?

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Originally Posted by Carighan

* In DW mode, you use the left/right autocombos. No weaving. 1.0s GCD, so you got enough to press. Left/right is now fully randomized, no more self-buffs. No positions. As you fight, you build up your meter. Only correctly pressed left/right attacks give meter.

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Just to point out, I think this is way too short of a time to parse which side lights up and then execute it, along with paying attention to mechanics. (not to mention I think every damaging GCD is at least 1.5 seconds long, with no way to make it shorter).

Also, at a cursory look, your rotation is kind of fixed. Every 30 seconds you need to use the 2H mode to ensure you keep the debuffs up, though there isn't a way to cleanly transition into the 30 second loop as you will need to overwrite 30 seconds of DoT timer in order to accomplish this.

This also ignores reawaken, since you didn't mention it, I assume it is still in? Which can affect meter generation, which could throw things out of alignment. If you don't have it, I suspect people will get bored as there is no big flashy attacks to work towards.

I just think you are trying to slap too much into the job just for the sake of it and aren't really bothered about how it would work out rotationally, not to mention you are adding 6 debuffs to a job. We already went through this period in the past and there was an issue in displaying lots of debuffs, which this isn't helping. Could they fix the issue from a UI standpoint? Probably, but it might be something they cannot fix, at least not easily. Bottom line is, we do not know.

One last thing, I don't know if you are someone who complains about this or not, but the job is still a builder spender. Considering that is one of the complaints about jobs being 'homogenised', just thought I would point it out.

Wish we got a Hammer class that was a melee dps that was slower on the gcd side of things, with little ogcds but long cast times and high potency. Kind of like pictomancer. then you get ogcds that proc when you slam into the ground to do further damage. It's not that unique but melee with legit cast times and high potency sounds kind of cool for some of us who are tired of fast job with a million ogcds that we can't seem to stop getting

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Wish we got a Hammer class that was a melee dps that was slower on the gcd side of things, with little ogcds but long cast times and high potency. Kind of like pictomancer. then you get ogcds that proc when you slam into the ground to do further damage. It's not that unique but melee with legit cast times and high potency sounds kind of cool for some of us who are tired of fast job with a million ogcds that we can't seem to stop getting

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It's kinda what I thought Reaper would be, given they're swinging an oversized Scythe.

I'd give a lot for a 3,5s-4,0s GCD melee class, ideally with a 1,5s-2,0s mobile-cast portion of each attack. Slow to move, slow to attack, huge damage numbers with every hit.

Alternatively, to fully capitalize on melee casting, a Battlemage, though I'd prefer that as a Tank tbh.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Alternatively, to fully capitalize on melee casting, a Battlemage, though I'd prefer that as a Tank tbh.

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A mage tank would be awesome!

Green Mage

Green Mage

The idea of switching weapon it should have a purpose,

games like MHW there is a weapon called "switch axe" this weapon is an axe that transform into greatsword.

Axe is to break the boss armor or what we call it also CC and the sword is to dish the most damage while having lower movement.

can this type of class exist in FFXIV? don't think so, the game is only about damage nothing else, and there is nothing to manage behind that for simplicity.

I find the whole concept of Viper, from weapon to identity, to be pretty half-baked. There was so much wasted potential there. The concept of a transforming weapons seems so cool in theory but mechanically SE did nothing with it. It could not happen and nothing would be different.

The job also has no identity to speak of. Lore-wise they are meant to be hunters of dangerous monsters, but nothing about their job kit suggests that at all. It's just generic sword slashes followed by a less cool Reaper-style transformation phase, then back to generic sword strikes. There are so many examples of cool fictional hunters they could have pulled from. Could have gone with something like classic fantasy hunter, using traps, hand-made tools, and poisons, along with their transforming swords. Could have gone the "Witcher" or "Bloodborne" monster hunter route using bombs, weapon oils, and enhancing items. Or even the DND dual wield Ranger by tossing is some light nature magic, stealth skills, and animal affinity flavour.

They did none of this. The fact that Viper is a hunter of any kind feels like an afterthought, much like their transforming weapons.

Compare this to the previous DPS job, Reaper. A job that is dripping in identity, and has backstory and lore which is deeply engrained in the history of one of the prominent nations of the world. The weapon they use is a direct result of the tools available to the people who founded the job, giving a lore reason for the weapons to exist. The abilities in the Reaper kit are fundamentally linked to the idea that the job has a pact with a voidsent. There's even a whole dungeon dedicated to an old Reaper training ground.

Viper feels like a wasted DPS spot imo. Doubly so for folks who like scouting classes because we aren't getting another one now for many years, if at all.

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

The idea of switching weapon it should have a purpose,

games like MHW there is a weapon called "switch axe" this weapon is an axe that transform into greatsword.

Axe is to break the boss armor or what we call it also CC and the sword is to dish the most damage while having lower movement.

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And yeah we all expected it'd just be the lame weapon switch, every 120s you go 2H for the burst phase. Yoshi P then said no worries, we're not going to do that. Turns out, they're not even doing that, it's just a minor visual detail of the rotational play.

I feel just widening the gap in GCD timer between the two modes would at least make it interesting though (and removing the haste buff, instead increase potencies, to further augment the difference) because then the slow 2H mode would actually feel slow to play. Bonus points if its something like 2s vs 4s, so it still "aligns" cleanly.

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Originally Posted by jonimated

I find the whole concept of Viper, from weapon to identity, to be pretty half-baked. There was so much wasted potential there. The concept of a transforming weapons seems so cool in theory but mechanically SE did nothing with it. It could not happen and nothing would be different.

The job also has no identity to speak of. Lore-wise they are meant to be hunters of dangerous monsters, but nothing about their job kit suggests that at all. It's just generic sword slashes followed by a less cool Reaper-style transformation phase, then back to generic sword strikes. There are so many examples of cool fictional hunters they could have pulled from. Could have gone with something like classic fantasy hunter, using traps, hand-made tools, and poisons, along with their transforming swords. Could have gone the "Witcher" or "Bloodborne" monster hunter route using bombs, weapon oils, and enhancing items. Or even the DND dual wield Ranger by tossing is some light nature magic, stealth skills, and animal affinity flavour.

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Plus, they could not even get themselves to use the word Viper and at least make it a job about a dozen or so debuffs you need to juggle and having DoTs based on other DoTs and stuff. Like, if you had a combo-sequence for DoTs, that'd at least be unique (that is, your 1-2-3 combo is a 1-1-1 combo, but it applies a different debuff depending on which are already on the enemy). Boring gameplay wise, but at least somewhat unique in design.

Instead they did... absolutely bloody nothing with it. The only thing Viper is good for is showcasing how well autocombos work for boring 1-2-3 combos and how much it helps reduce RSI a bit if at least you don't have to needlessly shift your fingers laterally, too. Which as someone who is no longer young at all, I appreciate.

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Originally Posted by jonimated

Could have gone with something like classic fantasy hunter, using traps, hand-made tools, and poisons, along with their transforming swords.

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So, first, i mostly disagree with you people, i'm pretty happy about viper's gameplay identity because, as an old ninja main, i was sad to see the ninja becoming some kind of melee mage, i liked him because he was a fast paced dexterity "sword" fighter, so i'm really happy that they brought back this type of job that is the one i prefer.

And at first, when i read your message, i was like "wow, what a boring idea, setting traps during a fight ? I've seen that in a lot of game and that is usually boring and actually doesn't make any sense, nobody has time to set a trap during an actual fight".

But ACTUALLY, this would be a very good idea to give the viper a trap that would only be good during downtime. Because one of the biggest weakness of the viper is how he absolutely despises downtime. This would actually be cool and make him stronger. But that should absolutely not be done during uptime, that would be awful.

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Originally Posted by Karuya

So, first, i mostly disagree with you people, i'm pretty happy about viper's gameplay identity because, as an old ninja main, i was sad to see the ninja becoming some kind of melee mage, i liked him because he was a fast paced dexterity "sword" fighter, so i'm really happy that they brought back this type of job that is the one i prefer.

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A fast-paced sword fighter isn't a bad idea in a vacuum, but it is simply too bland of an idea for the world of FFXIV. Viper doesn't justify it's own existence among the other jobs, both thematically and mechanically.

It's kit is stolen wholesale from other dps jobs. Gameplay-wise it doesn't really do anything unique. Lore-wise it's a monster hunter? Cool, lean into that. As it stands Viper doesn't offer anything unique to the world and story of FFXIV that other jobs couldn't also do. And in many cases do better.

I'm glad you enjoy as is, really. I just think it could have been so much more than "fast swords". To me it just feels like an idea that needed an extra expansions worth of dev time to get right. Viper feels like it basically exists because they needed to fill the scouting slot, and doesn't justify it's existence beyond that.

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Originally Posted by jonimated

A fast-paced sword fighter isn't a bad idea in a vacuum, but it is simply too bland of an idea for the world of FFXIV.

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Although I think even then, if it were a tank, and FFXIV's first avoidance tank at that, that could have been interesting and workable.

imo.. I only play Viper because of my Deadpool Glamour.. but yes their auto combo stuff may prelude the Death of the 1-2-3 Combo.. I mean looking at PLD.. they could change their 1-2-3 Combo into a 6 tier autocombo.. and save 3 buttons.. while that being more convinient I wouldn't want that! and Viper.. come on.. Viper is a Glamour Job...

I mean, the concept of a combo is also kinda lost in this game too (though maybe it's an mmo thing?)

Every move in every combo has the same cooldown, there's no animation lock or forced movement, they rarely ever can be broken, most oGCDs can be woven inbetween, and many of them don't branch. There's no tactility to it.

Compare to the action games this game isn't sure if it wants to be or not, where consolidated buttons for combos do work, you have to weigh the risks of following through a combo to the end to get some of your stronger hits in, or have to dodge and break the combo, or maybe branch into a move that would help you dodge with minimal dps loss.

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

Every move in every combo has the same cooldown, there's no animation lock or forced movement, they rarely ever can be broken, and many of them don't branch. There's no tactility to it.

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I think this is why GW2 instead mostly relegates animation-combos to the autoattack skills on the 1 button. And the few others that exist have tiny combo-windows that flip back to the base skill after just a second or two in most cases.