Ability Values in Enmity List

As I mentioned before, I'm working on an in-depth analysis of threat generation as a function of time in different builds. Before posting any results, I wanted to make sure i have my numbers right. I've looked through several posts and done some in game testing, but if you think its wrong let me know so I can do my calculations correctly.

Provoke: 550
Flash: 400
Rampart: 160 Per Person Buffed with hate greater than 0.
Wardrum: 363 ~ 400 per mob hit.
Spirits Within: Damage x 2.5
Flat Blade: Damage x 5.5
Sentinel: Damage x 1.1 Does not affect abilities.

Hallowed Ground: 1100
Divine Viel: ???

Ps: Slightly off topic: What's the modifier on Skull Sunder, anyone know?

I think your numbers are off.

I'm "fairly" sure flash and voke are both 500 emnity. flatbade combo is x4.5 and rampart i thought was 240 per person buffed with hate more than zero and divided amoungst the number of actively engaged mobs.

divine viel doesn't generate hate and if i recall any emnity from the divine regen is procced onto whoever triggered it. i.e the whm/brd that cast the cure and not the paladin.

don't have any supporting evidence of these numbers though hence why i only said "fairly"

no flash does not equal provoke

and I'm pretty sure basic abilities like invigorate/divine veil/aegis boon etc each generate a basic amount of enmity like 15 or 20 give or take.

This link and This one

this is quite old information but seems to be the most informative stuff i've found. If there is something more recent that i haven't seen i'd be interested to see it. my belief that flash / voke were the same came from here somewhere i'm not going to scroll a thousand topics to find it. but some of the numbers in tose links are different to what you have.

again though the info isn't the most upto date. I would however truly appreciate a link to something alot more recent is possible

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Originally Posted by PiedPiper

As I mentioned before, I'm working on an in-depth analysis of threat generation as old in different builds......

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The numbers look pretty good.

It would be nice to know how much MND actually changes the Multipliers though. I'd guess those values are with around 240 MND.

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Spirits Within Combo gives it a bonus of 1.5x (Therefore 2.5x damage)
Flat Blade Combo gets a bonus of 4.5x (Therefore 5.5x damage)
For anyone that is confused by the wording.

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Not sure on Skull Sunder.

I'm not positive how the enmity values have evolved. I know shortly after beta, the best way to hold hate was to spam abilities. it didn't matter what they did, just spamming a random ability generated a significant amount of hate.

While XPing yesterday (duo leve party) with a MRD yesterday I noticed that lightshot generated a set amount of enmity in addition to the damage it delt. so to a degree this may still be true. the values may just be significantly lower. mrd could engage with an attack and deal ~220 damage. I could light shot for ~140 and pull hate. we hypothesized because it was ability+damage it generated more hate than just AAing. neither of us had enmity modifiers.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

This link and This one

this is quite old information but seems to be the most informative stuff i've found. If there is something more recent that i haven't seen i'd be interested to see it. my belief that flash / voke were the same came from here somewhere i'm not going to scroll a thousand topics to find it. but some of the numbers in tose links are different to what you have.

again though the info isn't the most upto date. I would however truly appreciate a link to something alot more recent is possible

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From your own link, the one where stanislaw translates and I do trust and have personally tested ( in some capacities ):

"Conclusion:
Provoke generates approx 550 Enmity.
Flash generates approx 380 Enmity."

The most amazing conclusion I can show based on this small amount of data and the knowledge that a spirits within at full health does 400+ dmg to every boss in game shows that in 1minute cycles a tank can keep single target hate above 47.667 per second (ie DD's can shoot for 47dps if the tank simply keeps voke/flash/SW on cooldown) if you can't keep hate from DD's doing 50~'ish DPS on any mob you need to re-evaluate the basics. I only mention this because in many pickup groups doing Ifrit I find hate is always an issue and I am usually parsing upper 30's low 40's when I find the tank struggling to hold hate.

seems everywhere i look the numbers are different. even in your paladin guide

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Originally Posted by Tango

Enmity Priorty Cycle:
1. Provoke (750apx enmity)
2. Flash (400apx enmity)

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Originally Posted by Tango

and here From your own link, the one where stanislaw translates and I do trust and have personally tested ( in some capacities ):

"Conclusion:
Provoke generates approx 550 Enmity.
Flash generates approx 380 Enmity."

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this sort of fits with my original belief that both generated 500. (something i'd read somewhere here) there seems to be so many numbers going around which ones are right?

this is kinda why i'd asked if there was something more current and comprehensive.

also note my quotes aren't aimed at you personally but just a easy to find example of how different numbers are all over the place.

It's pretty easy to see that provoke and flash aren't equal. Have a paladin flash some monsters. Provoke one. It comes to you every time. You can have the paladin smack it with a level 1 sword and it'll still come to you.

Because of the large enmity bonus they receive I would also like to know how STR/MND affect Flat Blade and what, if anything, besides HP affects Spirit's Within. I seem to remember reading that there is a MND bonus in there somewhere. Also, I was under the impression that Sentinel added a flat +100 enmity for damage while in effect, which is slightly different than a 1.1 modifier. I haven't tested anything, this is just what I recall from reading old enmity tests.

When it comes to generating enmity on PLD, the big variable in deciding how to gear is what is PLD damage like in various situations? In particular Flat Blade. I'd love to see some parse damage numbers in different gear against a few different mobs. Say Mistress Miser and Chimera to pick two important ones. STR/MND gear vs "other" gear to see how much the damage numbers change. Overall dps but also Flat Blade numbers.

In light of this, I will go with the slightly more conservative 380 value of flash, and keep the rest. To be honest, a few points either way on the value of one of those ability isn't going to massively change total threat generated (for example, most of my samples have been in the 26-28 thousand enmity range, so even 2 or 300 points difference is not a crippling error.) As long as we all use the same values to compare it should still provide useful data.

Also, from a purely "I want to generate as much enmity per second as possible" standpoint, I am not actually convinced that different builds for different fights are necessary. After all, damage will scale constantly based on boss defense. An example is that a DD pld will hit both Miser and Chim for more than a low str PLD, but that low STR pld will still hit Miser for more than they do Chim. If your build is focused on enmity it will scale in the same way on both bosses.

And while I will bring this up again in the actual "here is my data" post, please include the largest amount of damage done to the boss in question, so we can get a feel for how much enmity you needed.

I don't see the point of using Flat Blade anymore. Yes the multiplier is high, but the damage is so freaking low -____-

I was able to get flat blade up to 40 avg on ifrit. Full DPS setup but worth a look.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

I don't see the point of using Flat Blade anymore. Yes the multiplier is high, but the damage is so freaking low -____-

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I usually just spam it when my recast's are down on all my other WS's. I can understand why flat blade does low damage, because you hit them with the Flat of the blade, but it was a horrible choice for our Enmity Combo. Maybe if it had a chance to stun it would be more worthwhile.

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Originally Posted by Tango

I was able to get flat blade up to 40 avg on ifrit. Full DPS setup but worth a look.

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That's nice, 220 Enmity per hit.

I know with just AF and Ifrit's Blade it's around 10-12 damage average for Flat Blade on Ifrit (I think 10 is the Floor). So 66 Enmity per hit. (sad face)

So I wonder if you could estimate if it's better than ENM+ for the effects on Flash/Provoke. (Ifrit Fight)

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- 30 Second Enmity Cycle, Flash, Provoke, Flat Blade Combo (20% Extra ENM) 2311
- 30 Second Enmity Cycle, Flash, Provoke, Flat Blade Combo (DD Setup) 2520

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

I usually just spam it when my recast's are down on all my other WS's. I can understand why flat blade does low damage, because you hit them with the Flat of the blade, but it was a horrible choice for our Enmity Combo. Maybe if it had a chance to stun it would be more worthwhile.

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Flat Blade is pretty amazing. I think it would be "Just Right" if they reduced the TP amount to 500 from 1000 on Fast Blade.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Flat Blade is pretty amazing. I think it would be "Just Right" if they reduced the TP amount to 500 from 1000 on Fast Blade.

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Doubtful because that means we'd also be able to freely spam Savage/Goring Blade for 500tp as well. That's why I'd prefer they move the combo modifier to Savage Blade that way we could get a solid Enmity return from the damage dealt and we can follow through with Goring Blade. Then we can turn Flat Blades combo modifier into more of a utility setting to help us out such as high chance to Stun, Silence, Paralyze, Atk. Down, Def. Down or maybe just a 15-30 second duration Enrage to increase enmity generation like Sentinel and Antagonize's effect.

Just thought I'd post some of my findings on MND vs. Combo Multipliers. See if PiedPiper is getting any similar results.

So far, with Giantsgall Longsword 317 MND (Over Cap) my Multiplier on Flat Blade Combo, is a bonus of 4.5x
with a hit of 286 (1573 ENM with a 4.5x Bonus), it took ~1600 damage from Auto-Attacks to pull hate.
(Was with a Monk doing 48-52 each punch)

I thought I read that the initial testing was only 240ish MND and generated the same result.

I'll test again with a lower MND value to see if the Multi is lower.

Will have to do another test for Spirits Within because it also uses a combo multiplier.

I suspect MND does nothing but increase WS damage, which unless your STR is capped. STR>MND

Time to start a STR + ENM Camp?

I seem to recall them saying that MND had a direct effect on the combo multipler for Flat Blades effect, however judging from your test it might be ridiculously easy to hit by 50.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

I seem to recall them saying that MND had a direct effect on the combo multipler for Flat Blades effect, however judging from your test it might be ridiculously easy to hit by 50.

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Yeah, that's what they said should happen. So I was hoping to see like a 8x Multi with MND at cap.

Yeah, I'll see if there's any difference at the base value @ 50. (234 MND, this is with my 22 bonus points) See if it goes under 4.5x Bonus

I didn't even think about what it would be below lvl 50 lol. But I bet you are right.

Not sure about that either, I thought it capped out at roughly 4.5 or 5.5.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Not sure about that either, I thought it capped out at roughly 4.5 or 5.5.

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You were right about the Combo Multi being capped really low @ lvl 50. I tested it at 240 MND and it was still 4.5x Bonus on Flat Blade, and 1.5x Bonus on Spirits Within.

So to get the greatest potential out of it, it is best to have STR highest.