The duty support is bad for the game's story.

The duty support function doesn't have to represent the canon events if the group of people we have with us doesn't fit the party of 4 needed for duty support. The story shouldn't bend over backwards and suffer because we just need to have NPCs with fitting roles accompanying us just for duty support.

Most of the time when people wonder "Why is this character even present?" the answer is mostly because they are needed for duty support. Forcing characters to follow us around unnaturaly just for this function has only hurt the game's writing. (Together with many other problems the writing already has.) Going back to the pre-ShB setup of us canonically doing the dungeons/trials with whoever is currently present independent from the gameplay portion would benefit the story.


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Originally Posted by Jangles

Also to make it clear I'm not saying duty support should be removed, even though I don't like the feature. It's that it shouldn't be "canonized". We don't need to be doing every story beat with exactly 4/8 people, like for example how we canonically go through a lot of old dungeons either solo or with a group of random amount of people, or how we canonically face Thordan alone, even though the trial is with 7 other players. Gameplay and story don't have to represent eachother 1:1, it's cool if they can but it shouldn't be forced to do so for the detriment of either.

(also do away with the azem crystal already please, it was cool during seat of sacrifice but it's just silly now.)

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Just have a scene where the Scions talk about how we can always call on them in times of need, even when we're far apart, and then say we're using Azem's crystal to summon them as needed. Teleport magics are canon, they can leave on their own when we're done. Thancred might need some kind of handwave, though.

I agree that in many cases recently it has been pretty obvious people were there just so they could be used for Duty Support. I don't think they should put them there just so they can be used for Duty Support.

But I don't agree that Duty Support is bad, nor do I agree that they shouldn't go out of their way to make use of characters in the area for it if they are in the area anyway. For example, since ARR I had always wanted Snowcloak to make use of the NPCs there (ishgard knights and the Scions who conveniently "had to go somewhere"). In fact I used to find it pretty common that scions and other allies "had to go somewhere" whenever I actually needed them, purely because SE hadn't coded a sophisticated NPC system for dungeons.

In cases where there just aren't enough people in the canon, I have an idea for that as well, which is ghosts. Which would be just imagining that they are there and using their essence as motivation to power through. We effectively do this when fighting Varis and we come across "Specters" in some content such as Tsukuyomi.

I think it's just terribly utilized. There is NO reason that we couldn't have gone into the fights alone, we summon folks with the Azem crystal, why can't the duty support characters just be some random spectres of light that we summon, or something like that?

I don't like that some stuff has been overly dumbed down for duty support, but the story issues are a problem of a lack of imagination if anything.

Agreed. It was very noticeable in Dawntrail.

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

I think it's just terribly utilized. There is NO reason that we couldn't have gone into the fights alone, we summon folks with the Azem crystal, why can't the duty support characters just be some random spectres of light that we summon, or something like that?

I don't like that some stuff has been overly dumbed down for duty support, but the story issues are a problem of a lack of imagination if anything.

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I think the Azem crystal summoning thing can technically "run out" so the WoL tries not using it too much?

However:
In Stormblood, before the Susano fight (i think?), Alisae jokes about the WoL just summoning random friends they have around somewhere.
There are other parts in the game where its implied that the WoL just stomped the current local god by themselves.

Both solutions worked equally well I find. A healthy mix of every explanation we have would be nice.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

I think the Azem crystal summoning thing can technically "run out" so the WoL tries not using it too much?

However:
In Stormblood, before the Susano fight (i think?), Alisae jokes about the WoL just summoning random friends they have around somewhere.
There are other parts in the game where its implied that the WoL just stomped the current local god by themselves.

Both solutions worked equally well I find. A healthy mix of every explanation we have would be nice.

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Azem never had a real soul crystal made because they abdicated their seat before the plan was set in motion. The one the WoL picked up and uses is another phantom that Emet made, and it's supposed to fade away eventually, but with how much it simplifies things from a writing perspective I doubt it'll actually happen. Hydaelyn enhanced it so that we could do the thing at the end of Ultima Thule, and that enchantment burned out, but it's otherwise stable.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

However:
In Stormblood, before the Susano fight (i think?), Alisae jokes about the WoL just summoning random friends they have around somewhere.
There are other parts in the game where its implied that the WoL just stomped the current local god by themselves.

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Looked through the quest log and this is what I saw.

Solo:
King Moggle Mog, Ramuh, Nabriales, Ravana, Thordan, Nidhogg, Titan Hard (Post-HW), Tsukuyomi, Titania, Innocence

Companions:
Ifrit Hard, Garuda Hard, Titan Hard (Post-ARR), Shiva, Bismarck, Susano (Lampshaded), Lakshmi, Shinryu

Unclear:
Leviathan

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Originally Posted by Jangles

The story shouldn't bend over backwards and suffer because we just need to have NPCs with fitting roles accompanying us just for duty support.

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And indeed, the stories of ARR, HW, SB, and ShB were just fine in this regard.

I can forgive EW for being the end of the Hydaelyn vs. Zodiark vs. Ascians vs. Etc. etc. story arcs. Give our familiar Scion's one last expac in the spotlight and all that.

Where DT falls apart here is that our only traveling companion native to the expac's region is Luk Wamat. Aside from Krile, there was never any real reason for anyone else to be travelling with us, and thus do the rest of the Scions feel forced upon us.

FFXIV's writing need only introduce to us multiple travelling companions for each region we visit.

That's not the fault of Duty Support, though. They made Duty Support in ARR make perfect sense, as you watched your companions grow through the levels and gain confidence in themselves. Or you have that moment in Elpis when the dungeon comes up and you realize just who exactly there is available to come with you because the story has set it all up properly.

The issue in Dawntrail was just a lack of creativity and just throwing the Scions in because classes were needed for dungeons. It was as absurd as Lyse joking about finding 7 friends who just happened to be on a fishing trip nearby to go help you battle Susano. They need to set the stage in the story why certain NPCs would be available and that's what they failed to do in Dawntrail.

Also to make it clear I'm not saying duty support should be removed, even though I don't like the feature. It's that it shouldn't be "canonized". We don't need to be doing every story beat with exactly 4/8 people, like for example how we canonically go through a lot of old dungeons either solo or with a group of random amount of people, or how we canonically face Thordan alone, even though the trial is with 7 other players. Gameplay and story don't have to represent eachother 1:1, it's cool if they can but it shouldn't be forced to do so for the detriment of either.

(also do away with the azem crystal already please, it was cool during seat of sacrifice but it's just silly now.)

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Just have a scene where the Scions talk about how we can always call on them in times of need, even when we're far apart, and then say we're using Azem's crystal to summon them as needed. Teleport magics are canon, they can leave on their own when we're done. Thancred might need some kind of handwave, though.

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Even if it's technically canonized that we can summon people with Azem's crystal every time we need backup I still consider it a cheap cop-out made for the sake of convenience in almost all instances it gets used.
They could make it canon tomorrow that we just beat every encounter by nuking it with an orbital laser, doesn't make it any less terrible from a writing perspective.

Dawntrail bent over backwards to put duty support characters with you so that the dungeon could happen. They are fixing a problem that didn't need to be fixed. ARR, HW, SB and, to a lesser extent, ShB all have dungeons where they have a one off NPC or no-name NPCs join you as Duty Support. They make sense, do their jobs well, and don't lessen the experience. Why Dawntrail was so afraid of doing this is beyond me. Not all of the Dawntrail dungeons would work but it would work for a handful of them easily.

They made Alisaie heal rather than making Krile go CNJ... like, did she forget all about healing or something?

Lets just invent some new healing shit RDM can do for thise ONE SINGULAR INSTANCE and NEVER bring it up again in the story, rather than have Krile class change back to CNJ lmao

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Originally Posted by Jangles

The duty support function doesn't have to represent the canon events if the group of people we have with us doesn't fit the party of 4 needed for duty support. The story shouldn't bend over backwards and suffer because we just need to have NPCs with fitting roles accompanying us just for duty support.

Most of the time when people wonder "Why is this character even present?" the answer is mostly because they are needed for duty support. Forcing characters to follow us around unnaturaly just for this function has only hurt the game's writing. (Together with many other problems the writing already has.) Going back to the pre-ShB setup of us canonically doing the dungeons/trials with whoever is currently present independent from the gameplay portion would benefit the story.


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I agree whole heartedly. keep it in the game for gameplay purposes, but it's time to stop forcing us to always have 3-5 people nearby for any dungeon.

The crystal exists, thats enough lore explanation for doing dungeons with NPCS

Wholeheartedly agree. They couldn't keep the Scions "disbanded" for even a single patch because of it. I also resent Duty Support for what it's done to older dungeons, which have been degraded and homogenized so that NPCs can play them instead of people. (RIP old Hraesvelgr fight)

I don't think the Duty support function is the issue if there's writers capable of working around this. I never felt like it was forced in SHB or EW, it only started being blatantly obvious in Dawntrail's MSQ...

I would go deeper with all this and say that back in ARR, the dungeons and trials were genuine obstacles and the story had to fit around them. At this point it's become entirely the other way around and the dungeons/trials are made to fit with the 'story' and not get in the way.

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Originally Posted by Mondschnee

I don't think the Duty support function is the issue if there's writers capable of working around this. I never felt like it was forced in SHB or EW, it only started being blatantly obvious in Dawntrail's MSQ...

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Agreed. It's a testament to how poor DT writing was indeed, when it even affects such a (seemingly) unconnected function as Duty Support.

"The only way we can reach [Level 99 Trial Boss] is going through this very dangerous dungeon. There is no other way!"

*we reach the trial boss and 4 more Scions walk out of a broom closet so we have 8*

Duty Support is fine, BUT I feel SE should really maybe consider throwing in random no-name NPC adventurers like they did for ARR and some HW and StB dungeons.

I love the Scions, but... are they really our only friends? Surely we have an adoring fan or three-seven somewhere, eager to stand next to us.

I mean I agree that TAILORING the story around duty support is dumb, just use the Azem crystal or random NPC's.

That said ironically in the same way that Trusts kinda killed the social aspect of FFXI, it could do the opposite with FFXIV if they pushed the game that way. They wouldn't be shackled by the main story elements forcing us to do dailies and such. Also it means that we no longer have to cater to toxic people like that of those in dungeons who don't want to try or learn dungeons and instead force everyone to slow down at THEIR pace. Now if they want to go slower they can just use trusts. Those that want to go faster play the optimal way with people. And idk I feel like we have seen the devs open up leveling a bit more. One thing I think DT did really right is that fates actually give/gave decent xp in comparison to anything else on patch release.

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Originally Posted by Emitans

"The only way we can reach [Level 99 Trial Boss] is going through this very dangerous dungeon. There is no other way!"

*we reach the trial boss and 4 more Scions walk out of a broom closet so we have 8*

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It's funny since we have the crystal, why can't we just summon the avatars of the scions to fight with us instead of making them jump across the planet to us

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

That's not the fault of Duty Support, though. They made Duty Support in ARR make perfect sense, as you watched your companions grow through the levels and gain confidence in themselves. Or you have that moment in Elpis when the dungeon comes up and you realize just who exactly there is available to come with you because the story has set it all up properly.

The issue in Dawntrail was just a lack of creativity and just throwing the Scions in because classes were needed for dungeons. It was as absurd as Lyse joking about finding 7 friends who just happened to be on a fishing trip nearby to go help you battle Susano. They need to set the stage in the story why certain NPCs would be available and that's what they failed to do in Dawntrail.

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As absurd as that joke seems on the surface, it's entirely plausible with Ruby Dragon being in that zone that there might be a dozen random high level adventurers trying to catch a stupid fish.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

As absurd as that joke seems on the surface, it's entirely plausible with Ruby Dragon being in that zone that there might be a dozen random high level adventurers trying to catch a stupid fish.

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Possibly, but we had to call in favors to get ourselves over there due to the environment before we helped improve it, so at that point in the story fellow adventurers may have run into the same issues.

I did appreciate with that little quip that the devs did acknowledge how silly it was sometimes that we magically had just the people we needed to face something.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Just have a scene where the Scions talk about how we can always call on them in times of need, even when we're far apart, and then say we're using Azem's crystal to summon them as needed. Teleport magics are canon, they can leave on their own when we're done. Thancred might need some kind of handwave, though.

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Lmfao, Thancred

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

The issue in Dawntrail was just a lack of creativity and just throwing the Scions in because classes were needed for dungeons. It was as absurd as Lyse joking about finding 7 friends who just happened to be on a fishing trip nearby to go help you battle Susano. They need to set the stage in the story why certain NPCs would be available and that's what they failed to do in Dawntrail.

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They don't even need to set that up, it's fine if it works out in a way where the amount of people needed for a trial match up with what's happeneing in the story but still, story and gameplay don't need to represent eachother 1:1 to a fault.

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Originally Posted by Emitans

"The only way we can reach [Level 99 Trial Boss] is going through this very dangerous dungeon. There is no other way!"

*we reach the trial boss and 4 more Scions walk out of a broom closet so we have 8*

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this would have been fine if we had all 7 as options for Duty Support like what happened with:
(Shadowbringers)
Malikah's Well
Mount Gulg
Amaurot
Anamnesis Anyder
The Heroes' Gauntlet
Paglth'an

(Endwalker)
The Tower of Babil
(Vanaspati would be here if not for Urianger being on the moon)
The Aitiascope (Which also goes immediately into a Trial)
The Dead Ends

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Thancred might need some kind of handwave, though.

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Thancred can't cast magic anymore, but us summoning him wouldn't be him using magic, it's even explicit that he can use magic indirectly if some other mechanism casts the spell and he simply contributes the aether, like when he used the experimental Aetheryte to go to Thavnair.