PvP hit detection is awful and less engaging

A lot of skills from different Jobs feel pretty delayed and less engaging. It's spread across different Jobs in general. When I press an action button, the timing feels off. Devs should either make the animations shorter, or revert to how some skills used to be. This change feels like it was more for aesthetic than for gameplay. Whoever play-tested this has no idea what kind of gameplay the players want and was only concerned with visuals. The delayed hits now feel like RNG.

I know people will say "oh it was more broken before", "you're just used to how it was before and now the changes don't suit your playstyle" or "get used to it." It made it so much more engaging, though. It was more fun and intense. Believe me, I'm trying to get used to it, but it's hard to ignore something like this. It feels more weak and less effective to play the Jobs.
When you play PvP a lot, especially CC, you know when to respond & predict movements. Things like Guard are fine, it's mostly concern with certain Job skill delays, and it's not only about getting kills, it's the execution of the action in general.

One example is NIN's shukuchi. Sometimes it seems like I'm still targetable and get hit out of hide even when I time when to use it so I don't get hit out of it, when in pre-patch that didn't seem like an issue, it was more rare for that to happen.

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Originally Posted by Nezusagi

A lot of skills from different Jobs feel pretty delayed and less engaging. It's spread across different Jobs in general. When I press an action button, the timing feels off. Devs should either make the animations shorter, or revert to how some skills used to be. This change feels like it was more for aesthetic than for gameplay. Whoever play-tested this has no idea what kind of gameplay the players want and was only concerned with visuals. The delayed hits now feel like RNG.

I know people will say "oh it was more broken before", "you're just used to how it was before and now the changes don't suit your playstyle" or "get used to it." It made it so much more engaging, though. It was more fun and intense. Believe me, I'm trying to get used to it, but it's hard to ignore something like this. It feels more weak and less effective to play the Jobs.
When you play PvP a lot, especially CC, you know when to respond & predict movements. Things like Guard are fine, it's mostly concern with certain Job skill delays, and it's not only about getting kills, it's the execution of the action in general.

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Agreed. And shorter animations seems like a sensible solution. It really does feel like aesthetics is being prioritized of pleasing gameplay.

Yeah, or if you don't want to compromise on aesthetics you could also move the moment of impact (the point in the animation where the skill hits the enemy and all effects are registered) to the start/a very early point in the animation and have the rest of the animation play out afterwards for aesthetics/flair. But everything that comes after ther moment of impact can be cancelled so you are never animation-locked after hit registration (and that cancel must be bug-free! Pls SE).

(For example, PCT has an unnecessarily long animation for their instant "fire/wind/water" spells. As a result they feel annoyingly sluggish and slow because after you press your button you still have to wait a good while till the attacks actually come out. BLM's first instant ice spell comes out "much" faster (relatively speaking).)

I would also really wish for healing effects to either be on cast or have very fast animations because them not possessing instant responsivity is a certain death sentence in many situations.
(How many times have I died because white comet had a whole tea break between my button press and the moment it finally fell down to heal me a little too late.)

It's incredibly unfriendly to even the slightest amount of latency. Hits that would have connected before just don't now. Slow moving projectiles whiff so often it's ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by CamuiKushi

It's incredibly unfriendly to even the slightest amount of latency. Hits that would have connected before just don't now. Slow moving projectiles whiff so often it's ridiculous.

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Apart from being incredibly annoying, I'd suggest it also reduces skill expression. Timing/positioning a WAR burst into a blob so that the HP restoration from Chaotic Cyclone kept you alive used to be incredibly rewarding. Now it's a crap-shoot.

One of the things it allowed for is timed bomb techs, most notably with Riddle of Earth bomb, Sheltron bomb, or GNB's LB. Pop the ability from a safe distance, then dash to the enemy immediately, the bomb will detonate with a delay and only once you're on their ass.

Otherwise they definitely managed to make a game highly criticized for its responsiveness even less responsive.

I must admit that with my MCH, sometime I get a kill that I was thinking it was safe (versus the previous season). I'm still not 100% used with the new animation/hit, and some of the damage seems to happen a bit later than what I'm used to.

I'm not talking about my poison dot or detonation that make the kill, but some skills have an animation makes it... weird? I've also got used to the new skill "Full metal Field", but the animation versus when the damage hits felt a bit weird at first, it felt like a little "lag" is there.

It's not that bad tho, and it's always a nice surprise to get a kill when you though that the person escaped, but yeah, animation and hit detection could get improved... And like everything, after arround 300 games I've got used to most of it

Because of how hit detection works now, and because how a melee has the same HP as a tank, I die as a tank the same way like a melee, in the window between getting cc and using purify - I will die - fast reactionskills are useless - the recuperate will not go off in time due to the lag now. Even worse if you click Imperator before you get stunned, you have to wait an extra 2s before you get purified. I don't know why a tank that has to cover teammates, so - is expected to take additional damage compared to e.g. Darkknight, still has the same HP as them. While DRK has 2 TBN compared to 1 Holy Shield Wall, and faster aoe dmg that heals and basic combo healing. Also whoever thought of making Cover a dash to the target...it is very annoying to play around. You basically have to instantly run away from the target again and stand at max range, to not get double tapped by aoe dmg, but most aoe dmg has a bigger range than the cover tether range, so you get double damage anyway. It would be better if the cover dash only brings you up to 10y to a target, while the cover range being 20y like in PvE. Or revert it back to old cover, where you don't dash.
Otherwise you get caught in cc that goes on the target, before you can press guardian.
Or the target dies after you already pressed guardian and a quickchat that you covered the target, because of the delay.
I wish the PvP devs would play it themselves, because you sometimes can predict things perfectly, have 10k MP and purify ready, and you still die instantly. Things like this shouldn't exist in a ranked game.
It is also almost impossible to not use purify now, you just cant risk it, there is almost no estimation possible if you can maybe not purify and safe it for a later moment. In most cases, it is better to use it directly, to not take chances of an instant death. And if you are forced to press a button, it gives no room for more skillful plays. You can't do wrong. And if you can't do wrong, you can't do much better than others either. Stop making it so casual friendly..

I covered the GNB in this situation as example. I was full MP. The Redmage Limit Break says, if the target stands in the cross's center it will receive the effect twice. I received it four times. I wonder how. And I wonder how I should evade it, if the redmage LB is 15y and the cover range 10y, I have to run away, but it is hard if you have to dash in. At least I can hear it if it is summoner LB, or see it if it is dragoon LB, but against whitemage and redmage LB, you have no time to react and the delay will give you the rest.

https://i.imgur.com/UT0vzr2.png
https://i.imgur.com/GL06ZmE.png

I think they got the right idea with the hit detection changes making a bunch of stuff more reactable and opening up room for counterplay, but the issue is it's applied inconsistently across the roster.

Skills like the MCH or SMN lb now take so long to snapshot that they can be trivially reacted to with guard or a similar defensive. And then you have stuff like the WHM, NIN, or RDM lb that are unchanged and still as obnoxious to get hit by as ever. I feel like the mode would be healthier if far more things were slowed down as well.

The skills were originally animated with only aesthetics in mind, so there was little consideration for syncing up the snapshot with the animation. Now that they've changed their mind on this however, it basically means a bunch of unlucky jobs got nerfed while some others got away scot free.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

Because of how hit detection works now, and because how a melee has the same HP as a tank, I die as a tank the same way like a melee, in the window between getting cc and using purify - I will die - fast reactionskills are useless - the recuperate will not go off in time due to the lag now. Even worse if you click Imperator before you get stunned, you have to wait an extra 2s before you get purified. I don't know why a tank that has to cover teammates, so - is expected to take additional damage compared to e.g. Darkknight, still has the same HP as them. While DRK has 2 TBN compared to 1 Holy Shield Wall, and faster aoe dmg that heals and basic combo healing. Also whoever thought of making Cover a dash to the target...it is very annoying to play around. You basically have to instantly run away from the target again and stand at max range, to not get double tapped by aoe dmg, but most aoe dmg has a bigger range than the cover tether range, so you get double damage anyway. It would be better if the cover dash only brings you up to 10y to a target, while the cover range being 20y like in PvE. Or revert it back to old cover, where you don't dash.
Otherwise you get caught in cc that goes on the target, before you can press guardian.
Or the target dies after you already pressed guardian and a quickchat that you covered the target, because of the delay.
I wish the PvP devs would play it themselves, because you sometimes can predict things perfectly, have 10k MP and purify ready, and you still die instantly. Things like this shouldn't exist in a ranked game.
It is also almost impossible to not use purify now, you just cant risk it, there is almost no estimation possible if you can maybe not purify and safe it for a later moment. In most cases, it is better to use it directly, to not take chances of an instant death. And if you are forced to press a button, it gives no room for more skillful plays. You can't do wrong. And if you can't do wrong, you can't do much better than others either. Stop making it so casual friendly..

I covered the GNB in this situation as example. I was full MP. The Redmage Limit Break says, if the target stands in the cross's center it will receive the effect twice. I received it four times. I wonder how. And I wonder how I should evade it, if the redmage LB is 15y and the cover range 10y, I have to run away, but it is hard if you have to dash in. At least I can hear it if it is summoner LB, or see it if it is dragoon LB, but against whitemage and redmage LB, you have no time to react and the delay will give you the rest.

https://i.imgur.com/UT0vzr2.png
https://i.imgur.com/GL06ZmE.png

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The defensive design of pvp in XIV has always been pretty crappy, and since the change the crazy delays and locks on purify and recuperate are absolutely awful. It was already hard to survive a one tap KO from coordinated higher rank games or LPs before, but now it's just gg unless you have a pocket AST.
Even in normal games when you get pummeled in a less coordinated fashion you'll still drop before being even able to use all your MP on recuperate just because it takes ages to use each action.

On your screen out of curiosity, were you using cover (without guard on) on someone that also hate the same double RDM LB? That would explain it...

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Originally Posted by Valence

On your screen out of curiosity, were you using cover (without guard on) on someone that also hate the same double RDM LB? That would explain it...

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He said he covered the Gunbreaker, so yes. Both of them were within the cross's center, and since he didn't have shield up, that's 48000 damage modified by whatever straight to the face.

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Originally Posted by Valence

The defensive design of pvp in XIV has always been pretty crappy, and since the change the crazy delays and locks on purify and recuperate are absolutely awful. It was already hard to survive a one tap KO from coordinated higher rank games or LPs before, but now it's just gg unless you have a pocket AST.
Even in normal games when you get pummeled in a less coordinated fashion you'll still drop before being even able to use all your MP on recuperate just because it takes ages to use each action.

On your screen out of curiosity, were you using cover (without guard on) on someone that also hate the same double RDM LB? That would explain it...

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Cover has 24s CD, Guardian has 30s CD, in my picture its on cooldown for 17s and 11s respectively. So both were used 13s ago at the same time. I died 2-3s before I took the screenshot. So what does this tell us? I died 10s after pressing cover. Cover has a duration of 8s.

https://i.imgur.com/zEQibsr.png

As you can see cover buff dropped right after I took the Redmage LB damage. The next GCD so 2s after, killed me, the 9000 damage. As that was exactly my whole HP if you add the redmage LB dmg.

https://i.imgur.com/9oVsKCU.png

The Gunbreaker could have used a potion under cover, as he was desperately low on MP, but I remember he ran away instead (Crystal Tier match btw) and I stayed near crystal. As you can see he even used Guard and it was used 2s ago.

Essentially the damage hit me at 8s of 8s duration of Cover (Paladin is vulnerable here as there is a 3s window where you don't have guard but are still covering). The Gunbreaker did Guard himself at 10-11s, the moment I died. If he would have used it 1s earlier, I wouldn't have taken the 9k damage. Question still remains how a redmage LB, which center looks like this, hit me for double, as well as the GNB for double, so we must have been both in the center of it.

https://i.imgur.com/Hr0moww.png

But sometimes players appear on the screen, where they are not in reality. As positional data doesn't update as often I guess. The GNB already used Guard for 2s, so that means he was already slowed in it, and couldn't have moved that far from the position he is in the pic. I didn't record the match sadly, would have liked to rewatch it.

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Originally Posted by LibitIncarne

He said he covered the Gunbreaker, so yes. Both of them were within the cross's center, and since he didn't have shield up, that's 48000 damage modified by whatever straight to the face.

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Yep, basically like a 15% dmg buff from the RDM it seems. He has that map dmg buff I guess he had embolden or something? So it is 55440 dmg by 1 skill. Then it took 9k to finish it. Unlucky. Paladin is toast with 64k HP.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

Cover has 24s CD, Guardian has 30s CD, in my picture its on cooldown for 17s and 11s respectively. So both were used 13s ago at the same time. I died 2-3s before I took the screenshot. So what does this tell us? I died 10s after pressing cover. Cover has a duration of 8s.

https://i.imgur.com/zEQibsr.png

As you can see cover buff dropped right after I took the Redmage LB damage. The next GCD so 2s after, killed me, the 9000 damage. As that was exactly my whole HP if you add the redmage LB dmg.
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This happens because your Cover doesn't go out instantly. Hits in this game snapshot. Do you know how many times I've seen Tengentsu disappear, then randomly appear again because i timed it just right so that the last few frames of its duration protect against the hit?

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Originally Posted by LibitIncarne

This happens because your Cover doesn't go out instantly. Hits in this game snapshot. Do you know how many times I've seen Tengentsu disappear, then randomly appear again because i timed it just right so that the last few frames of its duration protect against the hit?

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I was writing this not because I took dmg from it. I was writing it because both players had to stand in the center of rdm LB, while being visibly apart.



But I can make another example of bad netcode.

I press intervene to stun. It goes on cooldown.

https://i.imgur.com/14l4GhN.png

Skill begins to initiate. You can see the animation playing out.

https://i.imgur.com/9khNiza.png

I actually gapclose, in this example just a small distance to be fair, it can be the full range. You can see the full animation with the slight shield swing playing out. But what happens? The silence actually activates before my Intervene goes through. But I already gapclosed so it was before? The Paradox of CC.

https://i.imgur.com/E8C8SZh.png


Lets make a last one.

I cover somebody. Last second of guard runs.

https://i.imgur.com/8ejxj1D.png

I have 2 debuff from GNB LB to be fair, it will increase my damage taken by 10% - I will Holy Shield Wall to mitigate that instantly.

https://i.imgur.com/74M9CMU.png

Let's see what happens. Redmage does his LB in the bottom right corner on the covered target. My shield wall mitigates the first hit apparently, but I don't get the shield oath 20% mitigation buff yet. I already took over 30k damage, but my main defensive job skill outside of my LB isn't even helping yet.

https://i.imgur.com/KMstaZI.png

I get another 15k hit after the 30k, we can see the HP bar updating, but it doesn't really reflect actual values yet.

https://i.imgur.com/iF2B3jD.png

Under the impression I still have 46k HP, I use a skill. At this moment I sealed my fate. I am dead.
Ironically you can see Holy Shield Wall appearing as buff visually, after I already received the buff from it being destroyed.
The HP value is finally updating.

https://i.imgur.com/rDBpoSQ.png

You can see me trying to use recuperate here. I waited a few extra frames so it is more visible. I dropped another 5k because damn Taru gave me a Broil into my face lmao. My shield smite still has full cooldown of 24s. But because I pressed it, recuperate wont activate in time.

https://i.imgur.com/BDJlJte.png

And dead in 2s.

https://i.imgur.com/mjpYhT0.png

I am sure many have something similar. I just want the dev to see this and tell me how I should survive this. I guess I can let my teammate die. So why even have Paladin with cover. If I moved into the direction of my teammate, the Redmage LB would have clipped us both. I think it boils down to 5man was a mistake, it is too much damage. Pretending tanks can support their teammates when their mitigation tools and HP are the same or worse than damage dealer, was a mistake too. Redmage has a buff that mitigates 50% for 4s, can I have that too, as you know, tank that soaks damage? It is just unplayable.

Why people are still playing CC?.


I tried it a few times after release and immediately quit and never ever touch it again, it was so fun to get 1 shot by MNK no matter what job I was.