A case for 2 dungeons per patch cycle...

One thing that has become a pretty common complaint is the 1 dungeon per patch cycle we've been dealing with for years now. It's really stagnated the game in terms of midcore content, especially considering how all dungeons are linear smash-fests with the same enemies and overall design with different veneer and bosses with the same mechanics, just slightly shuffled.

The boring, copypasted design of dungeons has even become worse with the introduction of duty support. Because of the limited ability of the NPC AIs, the mechanics have to be dumbed down as possible.

Suggestion:
I would love to see the return of hard mode dungeons to go along with the story dungeons we currently have. These dungeons could be a fair bit different from the story dungeons.

1. More difficult. This creates an expectation of something players would have to work through, with the expectation of the occasional death or wipe.
2. No Duty Support. This would allow for novel mechanics which are things the AI can't handle.
3. A testbed. Because this is designed with novel mechanics in mind, these dungeons can be used to find out what works and doesn't and can be applied to future content.
4. Testbeds mean that not only dungeon bosses and mechanics can be different, but layouts, mobs, puzzles, etc... The sky is the limit. One dungeon can entirely be a gauntlet of endless mobs that require CC. Another can be an updated variant system. A third could be a large heal check like Dreamwalker in Icecrown Citadel.
5. Increased rewards. Even if the drops are just loot we get from current dungeons, with increased drop rates to correspond with the difficulty, people would likely be happy to run them if they were fun/interesting. Even if they aren't, it's not a big deal if they're looked at as a testbed and a learning opportunity.
5. 100% Optional. The final piece is making these dungeons completely optional so less skilled players' progress isn't gated by them. Unlocking them could be done by a simple sidequest and they could be added as an additional option to duty roulette, so players can find groups.

I know it will never happen, but I can dream.

This is all I have wanted for years.

that sounds as if it could be midcore content.

i like it. pls make it happen

The good news is they are making 3 variant dungeons:

1. More difficult (at least solo I've found the last bosses give me more of a challenge than regular dungeons ever have, not saying they are difficult generally).
2. No duty support.
3. Not sure if variants are actually a testbed, but they have put new mechanic ideas in them I feel like.
4. Layouts and puzzles are often different in variant dungeons, so they are a testbed in that sense!
5. They are optional, unlocked via a sidequest!

The problem with variants, really, is there is not a roulette for them and they are hidden away in this menu where nobody is going to check once they cleared all 12 paths. And despite all these things, are they really that fun? Tbh no, and that's probably in part because of how thoroughly boring the trash is and waiting for the NPC to talk and press things.

The trust AI makes me miss my squadron, they are making some of the dungeons simpler- which is bad, and when they do well I just think "yes they're smarter, but they're still slower than my squadron". I'd prefer the ability to grow them, and brute force content with value, than just be able to do it while snoozing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

The good news is they are making 3 variant dungeons:

1. More difficult (at least solo I've found the last bosses give me more of a challenge than regular dungeons ever have, not saying they are difficult generally).
2. No duty support.
3. Not sure if variants are actually a testbed, but they have put new mechanic ideas in them I feel like.
4. Layouts and puzzles are often different in variant dungeons, so they are a testbed in that sense!
5. They are optional, unlocked via a sidequest!

The problem with variants, really, is there is not a roulette for them and they are hidden away in this menu where nobody is going to check once they cleared all 12 paths. And despite all these things, are they really that fun? Tbh no, and that's probably in part because of how thoroughly boring the trash is and waiting for the NPC to talk and press things.

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imo our variants are close to Delves, I think FFXIV should check that out a bit more. I can see a specific dungeon having a gimmick of morphing, but to have them all divergent... eh... also that they have had issues keeping alive before, so instead make a bunch of more bite sized contents, and improve the dynamic sync ability. With like a progression system that you can do slowly yourself or accelerate with a team (akin to delves).

At the very least they should make two dungeons with X.1 so we can phase out the first 3 cap level dungeons and start with an new ex roulette...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lolnotacat

One thing that has become a pretty common complaint is the 1 dungeon per patch cycle we've been dealing with for years now. It's really stagnated the game in terms of midcore content, especially considering how all dungeons are linear smash-fests with the same enemies and overall design with different veneer and bosses with the same mechanics, just slightly shuffled.

The boring, copypasted design of dungeons has even become worse with the introduction of duty support. Because of the limited ability of the NPC AIs, the mechanics have to be dumbed down as possible.

Suggestion:
I would love to see the return of hard mode dungeons to go along with the story dungeons we currently have. These dungeons could be a fair bit different from the story dungeons.

1. More difficult. This creates an expectation of something players would have to work through, with the expectation of the occasional death or wipe.
2. No Duty Support. This would allow for novel mechanics which are things the AI can't handle.
3. A testbed. Because this is designed with novel mechanics in mind, these dungeons can be used to find out what works and doesn't and can be applied to future content.
4. Testbeds mean that not only dungeon bosses and mechanics can be different, but layouts, mobs, puzzles, etc... The sky is the limit. One dungeon can entirely be a gauntlet of endless mobs that require CC. Another can be an updated variant system. A third could be a large heal check like Dreamwalker in Icecrown Citadel.
5. Increased rewards. Even if the drops are just loot we get from current dungeons, with increased drop rates to correspond with the difficulty, people would likely be happy to run them if they were fun/interesting. Even if they aren't, it's not a big deal if they're looked at as a testbed and a learning opportunity.
5. 100% Optional. The final piece is making these dungeons completely optional so less skilled players' progress isn't gated by them. Unlocking them could be done by a simple sidequest and they could be added as an additional option to duty roulette, so players can find groups.

I know it will never happen, but I can dream.

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You can thank the managment of Square for putting money in Forspoken/FF7R/FF16 instead of feeding their (currently) only profitable product.

Imagine how the game would look like if those millions were spent on improving FF14.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

At the very least they should make two dungeons with X.1 so we can phase out the first 3 cap level dungeons and start with an new ex roulette...

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They need to delete the 100 roulette and make all capped dungeons in the expert roulette not encourage the two dungeon expert roulette

The fact you get more capped tomestones from spamming an expert dungeon than you get from doing the 100 roulette just shows the 100 roulette is redundant

While I'd love to get more optional dungeons per expansion (let's say, 2 more overall), the developers probably think that Variant Dungeons already fulfill this role...

But yes, more optional dungeons continuing the trend of the level cap ones from DT would be nice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aco505

While I'd love to get more optional dungeons per expansion (let's say, 2 more overall), the developers probably think that Variant Dungeons already fulfill this role...

But yes, more optional dungeons continuing the trend of the level cap ones from DT would be nice.

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We should get one variant dungeon per patch in addition to more regular dungeons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

The good news is they are making 3 variant dungeons:

1. More difficult (at least solo I've found the last bosses give me more of a challenge than regular dungeons ever have, not saying they are difficult generally).
2. No duty support.
3. Not sure if variants are actually a testbed, but they have put new mechanic ideas in them I feel like.
4. Layouts and puzzles are often different in variant dungeons, so they are a testbed in that sense!
5. They are optional, unlocked via a sidequest!

The problem with variants, really, is there is not a roulette for them and they are hidden away in this menu where nobody is going to check once they cleared all 12 paths. And despite all these things, are they really that fun? Tbh no, and that's probably in part because of how thoroughly boring the trash is and waiting for the NPC to talk and press things.

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Solo variants are a bit harder because you're on your own to heal yourself, protect yourself, and do damage and mechanics. If you die, you restart. In groups though? They're hardly different from what we're getting now in normal dungeons. If anything, you have broken duty actions to help you, and not in normal dungeons... And that's only talking about bosses.

Variant is not a replacement for roulette dungeons because they alone have no inherent value to be completed other than for the sake of completing them as they are tied to no roulette and unlock nothing. They also have a poor reward scheme.

Saying variant is a replacement for roulette dungeons is like saying directly queueing for a random dungeon is a replacement for doing the roulette. One has clearly superior rewards, is encouraged by the system and isn’t cut loose into the graveyard of barely supported content

Either variant needs to be given its own roulette that selects a dungeon and a route direction (ie either left right or centre) or variant needs to be dumped in favour of returning extra dungeons that can be put on the roulettes

What I mean is it's a replacement from the developers' perspective and when you think about it, it is technically doing a lot of the things people want like multiple routes and puzzles and in that sense, it's making a start on things people are requesting.

Obviously a big reason it's not good enough is being hidden in a UI that nobody is going to look at, instead of being a roulette in Duty Finder.

When they are new, they do give decent tomestone rewards but it doesn't change how they are hidden away in this UI instead of in Expert roulette or another roulette that provides similar daily rewards.

I completed the first variant dungeon but didn’t bother with the other two. I wasn’t really impressed with the first one, and the rewards across all three didn’t motivate me to continue. It felt like dead-on-arrival content for me. Honestly, I would’ve preferred another dungeon in the roulette pool instead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

I completed the first variant dungeon but didn’t bother with the other two. I wasn’t really impressed with the first one, and the rewards across all three didn’t motivate me to continue. It felt like dead-on-arrival content for me. Honestly, I would’ve preferred another dungeon in the roulette pool instead.

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Like a lot of things, they were a decent concept with poor implementation and will probably never get iterated on. Ironically, the most praise I saw for anything related to this form of casual content was the most hardcore of hardcores saying that criterion savage was good 4-man practice for ultimates.

The alternative is to just leave all of the max level dungeons in the expert. I don’t run experts anymore because it’s so boring.

The same dungeon for 9 to 10 months is poor design.

Well it's good because we're getting 5 more months of the same dungeons, with just an additional one. Lvl100 roulette isn't happening until 7.2.