A question about White Mage's kit

To preface this, no my main Job isn't any of the healer role jobs. It's actually Dancer, although I've put leveling Dancer (and progressing the MSQ) on hold till I get everything else to 70. But I tend to favor Scholar when I do play a healer. That said, I do know how to play healers, and do so in a multitude of different MMOs. I just dislike having to try keeping idiots alive then getting blamed when things inevitably goes south due to the party splitting up, people running away from the heals, and people running behind LoS blocking features thus preventing said heals.

All that said, the times where I find myself struggling to keep the party on their feet in this game inevitably is specific dungeons when the tank decides to do wall-to-wall pulls and the DPS have (or use) few to no AOE capability. This is especially the case in dungeons where the synch point is before most of the instant cast healing spells are available. I've so far gotten White Mage, Astrologian, and Scholar to level 60 or 61.

For a few months now, I've been starting to notice increasing hostility towards white magics who dare to ever cast Cure 1 and Medica 1 once they've gotten the second tier of those spells. Some people just get snarky and rude about it, while a few others get down right vicious. And I mean "Kill yourself" levels of vicious.

So my question is as follows: Why do those two specific Conjurer/White Mage spells get so much hate?

They aren't that much weaker then Cure 2 and Medica 2. At level 56 while wearing the level 55 Healer set from The Aery, Cure 1 does an average of 1500 points worth of healing, while Cure 2 heals for an average of 2500 while costing 2.5 times as much and taking 25% longer to cast (and recast). At the same level and with the same gear Medica heals for an average of 1000 points. Meanwhile Medica has an average burst heal of 700 and 5 ticks of regen with an average of 350 per tick. Yes, the Regen spell heals for more overall, with an average of 700 points for six ticks every 3 seconds But if you need MP efficient burst healing, Cure 1 and Medica aren't bad choices. Especially if you don't currently have access to any instant-cast heals other then Regen.

What really confuses me about this attitude towards Cure 1 and Medica 1 is that no other Healer role job gets treated the same way. Nobody bats an eye if a scholar uses Physik. And nobody cares if an Astrologian uses the non-aspected versions of their basic single target and aoe heals. Not done enough with Sage yet to really know what I'm doing as one, let alone see if there's any hate given towards any Sage spells. From what I can see, it's only White Mage that gets this treatment.

So... why?

PS:
I've received such vitriol even in Sastasha, Tam-Tara Deepcroft, Copperbell Mines, and Halatali when I used Cure 1. And those dungeons, you don't even have access to Cure 2 yet. That spell isn't available until level 30.

There just isn’t really a use case for cure 1 above about level 35. WHM really doesn’t struggle with mana and in the same GCD cure 2 heals you for more. Like you say “it’s not that much worse” but it’s still worse, they both cost a GCD to use so why not just use the stronger one. Astro’s benefic 1 over benefic 2 is the same use case but aspected benefic is equivalent to regen so that’s a different case. There is some (mostly outdated) niche use of physick over adlo because physick’s pure heal is stronger than adlo’s pure heal but still that is mostly outdated. Medica is…….fine but after they changed medica 2’s regen medica 1 is now near redundant as well, but it does still have some use cases

When you become higher level healers get a lot of healing tools, far more than they ever need and healing tools that mean they don’t have to drop damage to heal. So from where you are how all the way up to 100 you’ll use cure 2 even less than you do now. So cure 1 becomes even more useless and it becomes a symbol of people who don’t know how to play healers spamming cure 1 at level 100

So all in all it’s basically just a redundant skill

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Originally Posted by Titania40

To preface this, no my main Job isn't any of the healer role jobs. It's actually Dancer, although I've put leveling Dancer (and progressing the MSQ) on hold till I get everything else to 70. But I tend to favor Scholar when I do play a healer. That said, I do know how to play healers, and do so in a multitude of different MMOs. I just dislike having to try keeping idiots alive then getting blamed when things inevitably goes south due to the party splitting up, people running away from the heals, and people running behind LoS blocking features thus preventing said heals.

All that said, the times where I find myself struggling to keep the party on their feet in this game inevitably is specific dungeons when the tank decides to do wall-to-wall pulls and the DPS have (or use) few to no AOE capability. This is especially the case in dungeons where the synch point is before most of the instant cast healing spells are available. I've so far gotten White Mage, Astrologian, and Scholar to level 60 or 61.

For a few months now, I've been starting to notice increasing hostility towards white magics who dare to ever cast Cure 1 and Medica 1 once they've gotten the second tier of those spells. Some people just get snarky and rude about it, while a few others get down right vicious. And I mean "Kill yourself" levels of vicious.

So my question is as follows: Why do those two specific Conjurer/White Mage spells get so much hate?

They aren't that much weaker then Cure 2 and Medica 2. At level 56 while wearing the level 55 Healer set from The Aery, Cure 1 does an average of 1500 points worth of healing, while Cure 2 heals for an average of 2500 while costing 2.5 times as much and taking 25% longer to cast (and recast). At the same level and with the same gear Medica heals for an average of 1000 points. Meanwhile Medica has an average burst heal of 700 and 5 ticks of regen with an average of 350 per tick. Yes, the Regen spell heals for more overall, with an average of 700 points for six ticks every 3 seconds But if you need MP efficient burst healing, Cure 1 and Medica aren't bad choices. Especially if you don't currently have access to any instant-cast heals other then Regen.

What really confuses me about this attitude towards Cure 1 and Medica 1 is that no other Healer role job gets treated the same way. Nobody bats an eye if a scholar uses Physik. And nobody cares if an Astrologian uses the non-aspected versions of their basic single target and aoe heals. Not done enough with Sage yet to really know what I'm doing as one, let alone see if there's any hate given towards any Sage spells. From what I can see, it's only White Mage that gets this treatment.

So... why?

PS:
I've received such vitriol even in Sastasha, Tam-Tara Deepcroft, Copperbell Mines, and Halatali when I used Cure 1. And those dungeons, you don't even have access to Cure 2 yet. That spell isn't available until level 30.

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GCD - Global Cooldown.

Cure 1 - Cast time: 1.5 seconds. Recast time: 2.5 seconds. Potency: 450
Cure 2 - Cast time: 2 seconds. Recast time: 2.5 seconds. Potency: 700
Regen - Cast time: Instant. Recast time: 2.5 seconds. Potency: 1200 in 18s, or 200p per 3s

GCD here is 2.5 seconds. That means regardless of whether you use Cure 1, Cure 2, or Regen, you still have to wait 2.5 seconds to use the next cure 1 or cure 2. It usually doesn't matter how fast you cast, because your lockout time is still the same. Speed of casting usually doesn't matter for this reason.

If you were to cast cure 1 three times, you finish in 7.5s:
Cast begin:
Cure 1 -- start 0s -- finishes casting 1.5s -- lockout 2.5s
Cure 1 -- start 2.5s -- finishes casting 4s -- lockout 5s
Cure 1 -- start 5s -- finishes casting 6.5s -- lockout 7.5s

If you were to cast Cure 2 three times, you finish in 7.5s:
Cast begin:
Cure 2 -- start 0s ---- finishes casting 2s ---- lockout 2.5s
Cure 2 -- start 2.5s -- finishes casting 4.5s --lockout 5s
Cure 2 -- start 5s ---- finishes casting 7s -- lockout 7.5s

Cure 1 is GCD inefficient. In the time you need a heal equivalent to 450 potency, you could be casting Regen and let your Heal over Time (HoT) do that instead, with potency equivalent to 1200p or even Medica 2, which is 700p. Cure 1 heals for a very small amount in the grand scheme of things and that GCD could be used for far more better skills. There is no such thing as MP efficient burst healing through Cure 1 for the content you are talking about, mainly because cure 1 doesn't act as burst healing in any way. If you want MP efficient healing, you set up Regen + Medica II. Having both Regens active is almost the same potency as Cure 1 every 3s ticking in the background, and it's usually more than enough. Setting up your regens will free your next GCD to do proper burst healing with Cure 2 after the regens already handle the MP-efficient healing (and again, this is mainly due to how the GCD efficiency works). Cure 1 has no real use-cases outside of Min ILvl No Echo (MINE) Coils only because this is more than enough for dungeon and trial content. Only MINE is a real concern for WHM as they has no extra way to sustain their MP economy at this level. For other content, you can get around fine with using Lucid Dreaming on cooldown for MP in ARR and using Regen / Medica 2 / Cure 2. The good thing is that Coils is not part of the MSQ dungeon experience and not part of the trial experience. That's why people will tell you there is zero use-case for Cure 1 past lv 35 for the content you are referring to for this reason.

Again, if you really need immediate healing and can't wait for regens, there are far stronger options to give heal on demand. Cure 2 is 700p for the same GCD. You use this if the person you're healing cannot survive another hit. If they can survive before your next heal GCD, then it means they don't need immediate healing and a HoT will suffice. Cure 1 is more or less a trap that people expect you to realize to stop using after using the other stronger heals.

You will get more and more free healing actions that are far cheaper than Cure 1 as you level up, especially past lv 50. They do not cost GCD (Abilities: Tetragrammaton, Asylum, etc.) and/or are MP-less (Spells: Afflatus Solace, Afflatus Rapture) that eventually pay itself back in damage (Lv 72 Afflatus Misery), thereby making them a roundabout way to be free healing actions. All skills moving forward take a higher priority than Cure 1 because of this. By not using these healing actions first, you lose free uses because they just sit there and never enter cooldown. MP is not a concern with these skills and continues to decentivize the need for Cure 1's "MP-efficient" gimmick. They also tend to heal far more, which act as the "MP-efficient burst heal" when used together (ex: Afflatus Solace + Tetragrammaton = 1400p healing in 1 GCD with 0 MP cost) than spamming Cure 1 (Takes ~3 GCDs to reach parity, or 7.5s and 1200 MP). This is the main reason why MP efficiency simply does not matter. If you do not use your stronger healing abilities that neither cost cast-time or MP, you're not only losing free healing, but you're throwing away far more MP to use the inefficient and weaker healing skills through spamming cure 1 and trying to activate a 15% RNG talent.

People definitely bat an eye when a scholar uses Physick, or at least I know I do because Physick, Diagnosis, Benefic, and Cure 1 all have very distinct sound effects. Physick has the same priority as cure 1, but slightly more use cases for an on-demand raw heal action since Adloquium shields don't restore HP and you do not have Emergency Tactics during ARR Levels. Key word: slightly more, healers all follow the same trend of having a lot more free healing actions (SCH has Whispering Dawn and Embrace from their fairy, as well as Aetherflow healing before needing to dip into Physick), so using Physick is a sign that things went terribly wrong or the SCH has no idea how to heal effectively and burning excess MP.

Nah, people will get triggered when they see the weakest heal being used often. You just happen to run into more people who silently judge rather than make a fuss. It's still the same annoyed behavior as a WHM using Cure 1. Sage's Diagnosis has even less use cases than Cure 1 because Kardia is far more potent at lower levels to do damage and heal (Sage gets far better gear so you should be outgear dungeons significantly prior to lv 30) and Physis replaces the need for Diagnosis in most cases due to how much free healing it grants at low levels with kardia healing in-between. Diagnosis is only used if the tank is taking far too much damage that Kardia cannot keep up, Physis is on cooldown, and the tank will die by the next GCD before Lv 30. The same applies to SCH, except the fairy's embrace is replacing Kardion and Whispering Dawn replaces Physis. AST has no use cases for Benefic at lv 30. Benefic II is just as MP efficient until Lv 85, but AST already possesses a lot more healing & MP tools than WHM by lv 50 due to cards, MP regeneration, Essential Dignity on lower cd, Aspected Benefic / Aspected Helios, and Synastry. By lv 85, MP efficiency is no longer an issue with the large amount of free healing at your disposal for someone to ever touch that skill.

If you only have Cure 1 for low level dungeons before lv 30 and you're getting vitrol, it could mean you are doing something wrong - like using Cure 1 when no one needs cure 1 healing. Are you using Cure 1 or Medica 1 when everyone is at 90% HP or are you using them when someone gets the full usage out of it (around 60% HP)? Are you using Cure 1 over Medica 1 when multiple people need healing? Medica 1 cost slightly more MP, but it's more GCD efficient than using two Cure 1 (refer to point 1). Most people expect healers to do damage when that much healing isn't necessary so substituting GCD efficiency is more important to players. You can't heal an enemy to death, and doing DPS actually helps with lowering the MP efficiency as well in later fights because it ensures enemies die fast enough before you feel the strain on your MP bar. Not to mention, lower level dungeons tend to be a real snooze because there's barely any skills to differentiate the gameplay, so people put a lot more emphasis on speeding up when possible. If people are still complaining after you do everything else right, then you just met people who don't know how healing works. They exist too, and you just have to ignore them.

Monday I quite literally had someone in a Tam-tara Deepcroft run tell me to delete my account and kill myself because I used Cure 1 in the dungeon. Said cure one castings were occurring when someone had taken a big hit and was down by a quarter or a third of their max HP, or because the tank was trying to Wall-To-Wall pull the dungeon despite the party consisting of me, the tank (level 16 Marauder, not a warrior synched down), and two lancers. Thus I literally had no time to do anything but cast Aero on occasion and chain heal said tank repeatedly to try keeping them alive.

I'll typically prioritize what heal to use based on how much of the bar is missing. Chip damage occurring on the tank or anticipating a big hit? Either regen as a precautionary measure or wait a bit then cast Cure 1, depends on the situation. Group just got hit by an aoe, but only the tank is regularly taking damage and nothing too big incoming? Medica 2 is fine. Someone's just lost half their health bar? Cure 2 right away to start, then assess the situation. Someone just got hit REALLY hard and are down by 70% or more? Pull out something stronger, maybe a OGC full heal. Multiple people hit VERY hard at once? Cure 3, probably. Then maybe a Medica 2 as well. Or possibly Medica 1 initially to get them out of immediate danger, then go from there as the situation requires.

I'll admit that Medica 1 and Cure 1 aren't usually my go-to options, instead reaching for Regen or Medica 2 more often. But I REALLY don't get why there's people who get vicious and tell the healer to kill themself over using those two spells.

At that point you probably just encountered some real bad apple that deserves their time out. Hopefully you've reported them for that at least.

There is no more to be discussed revolving around Cure I - Supersnow845 & AnotherPerson had already fleshed them out thoroughly why it should NOT be used. Avoid pressing them unless you're synced down to below lv30, or when you're absolutely out of everything.

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Originally Posted by Titania40

For a few months now, I've been starting to notice increasing hostility towards white magics who dare to ever cast Cure 1 and Medica 1 once they've gotten the second tier of those spells. Some people just get snarky and rude about it, while a few others get down right vicious. And I mean "Kill yourself" levels of vicious.

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Well first of all I would suggest reported those kinds of people. No matter how annoyed I might be at a 0 dps healer spamming cure1, I would never come to tell someone to kill themselves (unless they’re actually harassing other people, but even that would be a stretch).
Regarding the use of Cure1 and Medica1

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Originally Posted by Titania40

They aren't that much weaker then Cure 2 and Medica 2.
…
while costing 2.5 times as much and taking 25% longer to cast (and recast).

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CureII has 60% more potency than CureI. I would consider that a decent amount.
It Is true that there’s a gap of 0.5s in casting, but the recast is actually exactly the same. If you were to spam 10 cure or cureII, the only difference in time would be that the very last cureII would land 0.5s later.
Mana is a false concern unless you’ve been rezzed and are effectively oom (then yes CureI would be a viable option). Unless spamming Rez, CureII-III / MedicaII for an extensive period of time or forgoing using Lucid Dream, mana should never be of concern. Mana is in general a non issue. If everything went fine, you should never end a fight below 70% and this is more especially true once you gain access to afllatus spells and thin air.
So by all metric, CureII is 60% better than CureI.

There’s just little to no valid reason so use CureI over CureII as there’s no benefit in healing slower and ending the fight with 95% mp rather than 80%.
Regen being obviously even better provided the target doesn’t die before the 18s ends.
Medica1 and 2 are a bit different. Because MedicaII core feature is the HoT, Medica1 should only be used while the HoT is running. So there could be a situation where you actually use both, basically you use Medica2 and because more would be needed *now*, medica1 would become a viable option. (provided no afflatus rapture available).
Mana is again a wrong concern. Medica2, before trait enhancement, total potency is 700. Medica is 300. 700/300 = 2.67 so 167% more healing for a meh 100 extra mp which would account for 11% extra mp cost. Which means that if you want to be mp efficient, Medica2 >> Medica.
Obviously, you need to wait 15s for those 700p so there could be situations where you cannot really wait and it you’d be better off using two medica quickly. However, if all you need is “as much heal for as little mp”, then medica2 clearly wins. It is also worth noting that Medica2 potency is equal to CureII which means that Medica2 is effectively the same thing as casting cureII on everyone (as a hot). So it can be used as preemptive heal on the tank when option are scarces because you’re low level.

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Originally Posted by Titania40

Nobody bats an eye if a scholar uses Physik. And nobody cares if an Astrologian uses the non-aspected versions of their basic single target and aoe heals

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A SCH using physics is honestly as bad as a whm/ast using beneficI/cureI. I personally see no difference (unless you’re doing such a low level dungeon that you got nothing else)
Maybe you’ve been unlucky? Because those are actually the same wrong doing.

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Originally Posted by Titania40

li when I used Cure 1. And those dungeons, you don't even have access to Cure 2 yet. That spell isn't

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Well unfortunately a lot of bad player are big mouth who think they know but they don’t.
It’s really no different than RDM being screamed at for not rezzing in ARR/HW content.
Beside telling them that it’s a low level dungeon and that’s all you got… I don’t really see what else could be done… ignore them?

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Originally Posted by Titania40

So my question is as follows: Why do those two specific Conjurer/White Mage spells get so much hate?

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To add to other answers:

Someone might think you're fishing for a Freecure proc with Cure I, which is basically the meme for a bad WHM. (The proc isn't worth it. It's a 1 in 7 chance, which is abysmal, especially for a spell that has many other reasons why you shouldn't be using it.)

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I've received such vitriol even in Sastasha, Tam-Tara Deepcroft, Copperbell Mines, and Halatali when I used Cure 1. And those dungeons, you don't even have access to Cure 2 yet. That spell isn't available until level 30.

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I suspect that there's the occasional bad apple that tunnel visions on wall-to-wall pulls so much that they forget how anemic kits are at the lower levels, especially when it comes to DPS jobs and AoEs, and that in the higher-level ARR dungeons, some of the trash actually hits like a truck.

Honestly I’m not convinced the vast majority of people wouldn’t take the tank’s side on this

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

To add to other answers:
I suspect that there's the occasional bad apple that tunnel visions on wall-to-wall pulls so much that they forget how anemic kits are at the lower levels, especially when it comes to DPS jobs and AoEs, and that in the higher-level ARR dungeons, some of the trash actually hits like a truck.

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There's a reason I hate going into Aurum Vale as a healer. And it's how often I encounter tanks that want to wall to wall pull there, while the entire group gleefully runs through every single golden puddle they see, and ignore the 'purge the DoT stacks" mechanics in the bosses, and then blame me for the resulting party wipes. To be fair, I've also gotten blamed for the party wipes in the exact same situations when going in as a Dancer... along side the healer not being able to keep up with the incoming damage. You know, because Dancer gets a "once every 60 seconds" heal that's honestly kind of bad. But it's there, so I'm partly to blame if the tank over estimates what can be handled.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

To add to other answers:

Someone might think you're fishing for a Freecure proc with Cure I, which is basically the meme for a bad WHM. (The proc isn't worth it. It's a 1 in 7 chance, which is abysmal, especially for a spell that has many other reasons why you shouldn't be using it.)

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Always weird that despite seemingly insisting Cure 1 and Benefic 1 stay around, they've never increased the proc chances to 100% which might at least give some - hypermarginal - value to them in the - already nearly inexistent - situations you'd be casting Cure 2 respectively Benefic 2.

I think people reacting that strongly are definitely in the wrong here. There's just no real use case for those abilities after you level up and gain new tools. I think part of it is also some resentment from the fact that WHM is a little lacking in tools compared to its counterparts. So people would rather Cure 1 be turned into a more useful tool.

Cure 1 can very occasionally have it's uses, but a lot of those cases involve bad tanks as sometimes you're dealing with people who have all the tankiness of wet paper and you need to spam heals... It's more for the very extreme situations where you need to be a full time healer to keep people alive past the point of having used your lilies and tetragrammatons.


Medica 1 though, there's really no scenario or fight where you would ever need to extensively spam out AoE healing. Which overall makes it so that Medica 2/3 with it's HoT effect does the job even better than Medica 1 would do... Just throw it out after an arena wide attack from the boss, they'll generally fully heal from it before the boss does anything again.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Cure 1 can very occasionally have it's uses, but a lot of those cases involve bad tanks as sometimes you're dealing with people who have all the tankiness of wet paper and you need to spam heals... It's more for the very extreme situations where you need to be a full time healer to keep people alive past the point of having used your lilies and tetragrammatons.

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You use Cure 2 in those cases, not Cure 1. The only reason why you would use cure 1 is if you were extremely low on mp, but in 99% of the cases the party would wipe before you get to that point. So no, there is no realistic reason ever to use cure 1 once you have access to cure 2.