PvP 7.1

Hello WoL's

So with 7.1 on the rise in a few months (Hopefully) Let's have a little fun shall we. We know we are getting new pvp skills added and I am sure some will be removed/replaced with newer ones. So if ya PvP, share what skills ya think will be removed from the jobs you play the most and what is likely to replace it. I'll start.

WHM
-I believe Miracle of Nature is going bye bye.
-I believe Aquaveil will be replaced by Divine Caress
-I believe WHM will get their dash in pvp as well
-I believe Glare 3 will be replaced with Glare 4

SCH
-I believe nothing will be removed (Sch has the least amount of skills currently
-I believe they will add Baneful Impaction
-I am a little iffy on if they will actually add Seraphism in pvp. If so It may replace Summon Seraph as their LB.


Can't wait to hear yours.

Take care,

I have a general thought that would impact multiple jobs.

Even out the damage difference between the burst and the 1-2-3 combo, and possibly increase the cooldown time of the burst.

Beyond that, I think we could all cope with one additional button each.

For WAR having two gap closers seems a little redundant. I could see swapping out Onslaught for a single target attack. The sort of thing you might do with a very large axe.

I'm just curious, is there a reason everyone is certain 7.1 will have pvp changes? I don't recall any announcements or anything. Everyone is certain 7.1 will have pvp changes so I've just been rolling with it.

I'm not a game designer so I'm not going to even try guessing on job changes.

.1 patches are the pvp patches. Now if those changes are substantial we can only pray

I don't have predictions, but I know what needs to happen:

-Miracle of Nature: gone or added to the purifiable list
-Meteodrive: reworked or replaced. If reworked, remove the innate gap-closing aspect of it, and fix the part of it where Guard is supposed to reduce its damage

Couldn't really be fucked what they do for Frontline, since the core of the mode is the real issue, but I do hope Salted Earth is looked at.

I think everything is going to mostly retain its identity with the flashy new DT abilities woven in. PLD Atonement combo will probably include Supplication and Sepulchre but I don't know how with it being tied to gap closers right now.

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Originally Posted by Silaryn

I'm just curious, is there a reason everyone is certain 7.1 will have pvp changes? I don't recall any announcements or anything. Everyone is certain 7.1 will have pvp changes so I've just been rolling with it.

I'm not a game designer so I'm not going to even try guessing on job changes.

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Its been mentioned for like the past year that whenever the topic of PvP comes up that Patch 7.1 will have the PvP update/adjustments. Even their last Live Letter that had Viper and Picto's introductions had a section "reserved" for PvP that ended up amounting to: "Wait til 7.1 /trollface. kthxbye. btw Viper and Picto will have PvP skillsets, because we know you all assumed we'd introduce these 2 jobs and not let them queue PvP, rite?"

It's anyone's guess what 7.1's update will entail, but I think people need to reel-in their hopes and expectations, especially on things that haven't been touched throughout Endwalker. Moreso if things aren't perceived to be an "issue" for JP.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

Hello WoL's

So with 7.1 on the rise in a few months (Hopefully) Let's have a little fun shall we. We know we are getting new pvp skills added and I am sure some will be removed/replaced with newer ones. So if ya PvP, share what skills ya think will be removed from the jobs you play the most and what is likely to replace it. I'll start.

WHM
-I believe Miracle of Nature is going bye bye.
-I believe Aquaveil will be replaced by Divine Caress
-I believe WHM will get their dash in pvp as well
-I believe Glare 3 will be replaced with Glare 4

SCH
-I believe nothing will be removed (Sch has the least amount of skills currently
-I believe they will add Baneful Impaction
-I am a little iffy on if they will actually add Seraphism in pvp. If so It may replace Summon Seraph as their LB.


Can't wait to hear yours.

Take care,

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Why would they add baneful impaction? They literally already have the old Bane with Bio spread... I guess they could adjust/change it and rename it baneful impaction to match the pve ability ofc.

Cap salted earth and similar aoe skills to 5 targets. Copy battle ground from warcraft

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Originally Posted by Valence

Why would they add baneful impaction? They literally already have the old Bane with Bio spread... I guess they could adjust/change it and rename it baneful impaction to match the pve ability ofc.

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They could remove bio and add baneful impact since it’s already an aoe in itself. Doubt that will happen but yeah. Also baneful can do something else entirely in PvP. Like maybe slowly drain mp instead of hp. I remember back in SB I believe sch had this attached to their broil ability. It was removed as people complained and said it was OP. Maybe this time it can remove like a certain amount of mp during its duration. I mean I’m sure the devs can come up with something.

prediction : They wont do anything and the dev are sleeping on gas

Would be nice to see dnc get a buff in pvp

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Originally Posted by maximesan514

prediction : They wont do anything and the dev are sleeping on gas

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Hey now...what makes u think they allowed to sleep naw devs working on more wuk lamat story

Anyone who is currently undergoing a Limit Break acquires temporary immunity to sleep/stun/drawin/Miracle of Nature effects for as long as the limit break animation takes. Use the "Limit Breaker" status effect that every trust NPC has for it.
That's all I want.
The adds in Leviathan EX get it, why don't we?

it's called "counterplay"

Learn to play around counters.

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Originally Posted by Zakuyia

Would be nice to see dnc get a buff in pvp

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Wait dnc needs a buff?

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Originally Posted by Vatom

Wait dnc needs a buff?

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Dancer in reality don't need a buff if one who play it know what kind role Dancer should be
They are part of instrument of DRK synergy

The only reason why people are asking for DNCs to be buffed is because unlike classes that can handle themselves and don't need any help to do major damage to a group (SMN/DRG/NIN/WHM/AST/WAR/DRK/etc.) DNCs need some support from at least another player in order for them to be effective on the field. I'm not sure how it is in EU, but in NA majority treats DNC as if they are a free kill since they're the only range class that has to be up close to fight and therefore discourages people to play the class. Compared to DRK, DNC is a low tier class in the current meta unless someone finds a way to bring the best out of that class.
I personally don't think that they should be buffed, but go ahead and continue to over-tune the class. More for me to enjoy in CC. You already made the mistake with SMN lol.

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Originally Posted by LibitIncarne

Anyone who is currently undergoing a Limit Break acquires temporary immunity to sleep/stun/drawin/Miracle of Nature effects for as long as the limit break animation takes. Use the "Limit Breaker" status effect that every trust NPC has for it.
That's all I want.
The adds in Leviathan EX get it, why don't we?

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I honestly think some Limits Breaks should be punishable. Being able to miracle of nature/stun lock of out of their Limits is good gameplay and funny.

From Japanese info site FF14 速報

https://livedoor.blogimg.jp/tekitou_...4/84e9ebf5.jpg

Dancer as S tier don’t really need a buff

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

I honestly think some Limits Breaks should be punishable. Being able to miracle of nature/stun lock of out of their Limits is good gameplay and funny.

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Stun makes sense and can be played around if the LB user used Purify beforehand. Miracle of Nature not so much.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

Hello WoL's

So with 7.1 on the rise in a few months (Hopefully) Let's have a little fun shall we. We know we are getting new pvp skills added and I am sure some will be removed/replaced with newer ones. So if ya PvP, share what skills ya think will be removed from the jobs you play the most and what is likely to replace it. I'll start.

WHM
-I believe Miracle of Nature is going bye bye.
-I believe Aquaveil will be replaced by Divine Caress
-I believe WHM will get their dash in pvp as well
-I believe Glare 3 will be replaced with Glare 4

SCH
-I believe nothing will be removed (Sch has the least amount of skills currently
-I believe they will add Baneful Impaction
-I am a little iffy on if they will actually add Seraphism in pvp. If so It may replace Summon Seraph as their LB.


Can't wait to hear yours.

Take care,

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Hopefully Salted Earth gets changed too.

Instead of being an AOE Pull - Make it apply a debuff to enemies inside it that makes them deal say 15% reduced damage and 15% less healing received for 5 seconds.


It'll also put a stop to DRK DRG combos.




Warrior's Blota can stay as it is, it's single target.



Miracle of Nature needs to be purifiable, then it's ok.

The problem with Salted Earth is escaping the draw-in. The only way to counter the draw-in is to Guard, and Guarding further limits escape opportunities. Some jobs have an easier time of escaping than others, PCT's Smudge can get out of it pretty quickly.

The solution is to add Arm's Length as a PvP action and put it on a lower cooldown than Purify, say 20s.

That provides an opportunity to counter Salted Earth cheese while still allowing DRKs to punish teams that are bunched up too closely together. It also stops the issue where multiple DRKs use Salted Earth and you're bounced between them like a pinball. Team synergy should be rewarded, but the opposing team should be given opportunities to escape.

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Originally Posted by Alyko

The problem with Salted Earth is escaping the draw-in. The only way to counter the draw-in is to Guard, and Guarding further limits escape opportunities. Some jobs have an easier time of escaping than others, PCT's Smudge can get out of it pretty quickly.

The solution is to add Arm's Length as a PvP action and put it on a lower cooldown than Purify, say 20s.

That provides an opportunity to counter Salted Earth cheese while still allowing DRKs to punish teams that are bunched up too closely together. It also stops the issue where multiple DRKs use Salted Earth and you're bounced between them like a pinball. Team synergy should be rewarded, but the opposing team should be given opportunities to escape.

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You only need simple coordination to kill a DK before he triggers Eventide (against normal DK that don't script hack)
Focus fire DK to 45% with Bard Salience and follow with Ninja's Seiton Tenchu or Monk's Meteodrive to lock DK in animation follow with Ninja's Seiton Tenchu
There are multiple ways but only God knows why NA/EU players are not doing that

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

You only need simple coordination to kill a DK before he triggers Eventide (against normal DK that don't script hack)
Focus fire DK to 45% with Bard Salience and follow with Ninja's Seiton Tenchu or Monk's Meteodrive to lock DK in animation follow with Ninja's Seiton Tenchu
There are multiple ways but only God knows why NA/EU players are not doing that

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I'd suggest it's because it's easier and more effective to form a DRK+ premade than an anti-DRK premade. Plus an oft-mentioned FL guide only covers DRK premades, not the anti-DRK balance.

Anti-DRK premades do occur on Aether, with the odd quality that their members communicate in party chat like nobody else is there. As far as I can make out, they are carrying out a targeted vendetta against specific players. Ironically, these antics do very little to help their team, but because they do plenty of damage I guess they are immune from being called out on the ToS violation they are arguably committing. Mostly I wish they'd invest in a CWLS. They're free, guys!

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I'd suggest it's because it's easier and more effective to form a DRK+ premade than an anti-DRK premade. Plus an oft-mentioned FL guide only covers DRK premades, not the anti-DRK balance.

Anti-DRK premades do occur on Aether, with the odd quality that their members communicate in party chat like nobody else is there. As far as I can make out, they are carrying out a targeted vendetta against specific players. Ironically, these antics do very little to help their team, but because they do plenty of damage I guess they are immune from being called out on the ToS violation they are arguably committing. Mostly I wish they'd invest in a CWLS. They're free, guys!

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This is also why I really don't like PvP guide that intrusively preaching a specific tactic
It is creating so called "meta" and kills people's creativity.
When entire FL is balance around counter and EU/NA is trapped with single mindset of DK vs DK and see which group overpower other.
I have DK and I probably would be most annoying one yet I am disgusted by the concept of this job.

It will be interesting to see if they do decide to change DRK for JP/KOR/CHN players because NA/EU couldn't evolve

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Originally Posted by Sinstrel

It will be interesting to see if they do decide to change DRK for JP/KOR/CHN players because NA/EU couldn't evolve

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They could sidestep the problem through crude matchmaking. I'd suggest the lack of evolution on NA specifically arises because a fair chunk of every team has a trough of DRK fodder. Hence the DRKs feed. The XPers have no interest in evolving, they're simply leveling jobs. Separate the rabbits from the foxes, and the foxes will develop more interesting strategies.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I'd suggest it's because it's easier and more effective to form a DRK+ premade than an anti-DRK premade. Plus an oft-mentioned FL guide only covers DRK premades, not the anti-DRK balance.

Anti-DRK premades do occur on Aether, with the odd quality that their members communicate in party chat like nobody else is there. As far as I can make out, they are carrying out a targeted vendetta against specific players. Ironically, these antics do very little to help their team, but because they do plenty of damage I guess they are immune from being called out on the ToS violation they are arguably committing. Mostly I wish they'd invest in a CWLS. They're free, guys!

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Hahaha, sorry that I advertise! XD

It just so happens that a drk premade is a pretty good counter to a dark premade. I've also said before that this style of burst and positioning is something that pugs should be striving towards as well. There are stronger strategies that could be employed, but they require more coordination, and at the time of writing the guide I didn't actually know about them. Not much point to updating with 7.1 around the corner. I don't really consider anti-Drk premades a long term solution to them either. The way it scales is just strange. The more optimal the enemy team is playing, the worst these groups preform. Locking down 1 or 2 targets in a premade with a monk stack isn't very helpful if there's other darks going ahead with the engage as usual. It's strong when there's only 4 decent players on the enemy team. Locking them out of an engage is effectively crippling their team. I'm obviously a bit to optimistic seeing as it's rare to have any "meta" jobs outside who you bring, who are also on top of what needs to be done, but I still see these parties as short-term and ill advised solutions. (And side note, what they do would be just as if not easier if they just ran a dark stack since they'd be more effective in more situations while still able to effectively counter a dark stack.)

As for the targeting... it's just hard to prove, and it's not like any action is taken quickly if at all.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

Hahaha, sorry that I advertise! XD

It just so happens that a drk premade is a pretty good counter to a dark premade. I've also said before that this style of burst and positioning is something that pugs should be striving towards as well. There are stronger strategies that could be employed, but they require more coordination, and at the time of writing the guide I didn't actually know about them. Not much point to updating with 7.1 around the corner. I don't really consider anti-Drk premades a long term solution to them either. The way it scales is just strange. The more optimal the enemy team is playing, the worst these groups preform. Locking down 1 or 2 targets in a premade with a monk stack isn't very helpful if there's other darks going ahead with the engage as usual. It's strong when there's only 4 decent players on the enemy team. Locking them out of an engage is effectively crippling their team. I'm obviously a bit to optimistic seeing as it's rare to have any "meta" jobs outside who you bring, who are also on top of what needs to be done, but I still see these parties as short-term and ill advised solutions. (And side note, what they do would be just as if not easier if they just ran a dark stack since they'd be more effective in more situations while still able to effectively counter a dark stack.)

As for the targeting... it's just hard to prove, and it's not like any action is taken quickly if at all.

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I'm kinda resigned to the idea that NA strategy will remain in an embryonic state until we have 72 players on the field who all want to be there.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

You only need simple coordination to kill a DK before he triggers Eventide (against normal DK that don't script hack)
Focus fire DK to 45% with Bard Salience and follow with Ninja's Seiton Tenchu or Monk's Meteodrive to lock DK in animation follow with Ninja's Seiton Tenchu
There are multiple ways but only God knows why NA/EU players are not doing that

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Why would you waste precious slots in your 4 man party with anti DRK roles? As said above, making your own DRK premade is way more efficient and safe and I don't know why would someone waste their time trying to counter premades, especially when there is multiple running at once, you're not gonna counter them all.

The problem with anti DRK comps or even solo jobs like MNK is that they rely on non premades to take on the mantle and do it.
First, the effort required to disable a DRK premade is higher in the tenfold, because it requires way more pinpoint accuracy than the premade you're trying to counter: since if you disable the DRK too early, they can just laugh in your face and go at it again once they made mince meat out of you, or if you do it too late the DRK already jumped in and did their thing, which makes anything you're about to do just too late. Sometimes you meteodrive/punt the DRK away and you're like "yay I did it I prevented their combo!" except that once the DRK recovers 5s later, it's not like the fight is already gone elsehwere anyway and they'll just shrug it off and go back at it (and laugh in your face while doing it).
Second, you don't need a DRK to flatten a team, I've done it with a single DNC + PLD, if your team is following, so they can do it with whatever 3 remaining jobs they do have, but granted the DRK is the corner stone to it so going for it is what makes sense.
Third, playing counter is not fun for most people including me: I'd rather play MNK or other counters to directly delete the BH5 players individually when caught pants down instead of suiciding head first into a premade stack or two when my chances do actually get a result out of it are all but guaranteed.

I wouldn't really say it takes pinpoint skill... whichever people you want to lock down you mark, then have a macro to instantly target then with abilites. Moment they're in range you press the button and instant success.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Why would you waste precious slots in your 4 man party with anti DRK roles? As said above, making your own DRK premade is way more efficient and safe and I don't know why would someone waste their time trying to counter premades, especially when there is multiple running at once, you're not gonna counter them all.

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I never said anything about anti DK premade and I strongly disagree with your mindset
I am not sure why you makes it sound like it requires a lot effort
It only requires simple coordination between a macro, a job "know" how to use silence, and any job with finisher

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

I wouldn't really say it takes pinpoint skill... whichever people you want to lock down you mark, then have a macro to instantly target then with abilites. Moment they're in range you press the button and instant success.

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Not really, you disable them for 5s, then they're good to go again. Better to just counter with a dark premade as you said.

I hope they remove chain pull ability, hate hate hate it

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Originally Posted by Valence

Not really, you disable them for 5s, then they're good to go again. Better to just counter with a dark premade as you said.

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No, the strategy to remove leading DK is called Decapitation
This will achieve strategy paralysis as rest of group doesn’t know what to do any more
The leading DK usually has a mark on their head for his team is removed
Once this DK is KOed, as premade leader he will call retrieve until he is back from spawn point
It takes roughly 1 min for them to reorganize and your alliance already has GCD to repeat and rinse
Removing DK also creates BH gap for this DK where he does not have sufficient survival ability

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

No, the strategy to remove leading DK is called Decapitation
This will achieve strategy paralysis as rest of group doesn’t know what to do any more
The leading DK usually has a mark on their head for his team is removed
Once this DK is KOed, as premade leader he will call retrieve until he is back from spawn point
It takes roughly 1 min for them to reorganize and your alliance already has GCD to repeat and rinse
Removing DK also creates BH gap for this DK where he does not have sufficient survival ability

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I've found it's easier in many cases to pick off the usual pocket healer AST to be more effective than focusing down the DRK. The damage mitigation and BH scaled shield of DRK coupled with the insane burst healing of a high BH AST makes it very difficult to burst down a DRK. Take out the AST and the DRK becomes significantly more squishy and they get very timid.

I don't think they should ever balance the game around FL, but they still need to consider what is fun in those environments based on the limitations. For instance, it's worth considering having fall-off on things that hit more than five targets. They went and added huge damage and LB charge penalties to a lot of the jobs that had disproportionate performance in FL. This whole-cloth approach of just flat damage modifiers is the fastest way of balancing jobs, but not necessarily the best. If you look at SMN for example, the -15% damage penalty is definitely there because of the limit break's potential damage. Their kit is great and all but it definitely doesn't need to have a penalty outside of that one attack. It makes the jobs way less fun and satisfying to play in those situations, and I much rather have tailored the offending actions with either specific penalties in FL (and RW?) listed in the tooltip or give it some kind of falloff.

I'd also look at fixed damage attacks, namely instant kills. For both CC and FL, I want them to play by the same rules as anything else: be affected by both buffs and debuffs. For example, rather than just have the ninja LB just instantly kill the target, I'd give it a 3 or 4x damage modifier at <50% and have it pierce guard, so things like mitigation or healing at the same update could affect the outcome, but damage buffs on the ninja would also increase the threshold. Same idea with SAM. Aside from just tying it to the rules of the game, IMO they don't feel great in FL.

And lastly, hope some of the LBs just get changed. As a monk main myself, there is really nothing fun about our LB in any environment. I don't feel anything when I get a kill with it. It's one of the most scripted LBs in the game. Much rather have something that breaks guard, is back to a 1m CD, and still does good damage, but the 3 sec point-and-click stun on target and on the monk just isn't doing anything. Rather have more interaction happening between the monk and target during that time.

That aside, every expansion's PvP update brings in actions introduced to the PvE spec, and we know pictomancer and viper are going to look radically different, so looking forward to that shakeup. Don't want to feel like I am playing the same game as I did 3 years ago.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

No, the strategy to remove leading DK is called Decapitation
This will achieve strategy paralysis as rest of group doesn’t know what to do any more
The leading DK usually has a mark on their head for his team is removed
Once this DK is KOed, as premade leader he will call retrieve until he is back from spawn point
It takes roughly 1 min for them to reorganize and your alliance already has GCD to repeat and rinse
Removing DK also creates BH gap for this DK where he does not have sufficient survival ability

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Can you explain how you remove the DRK? That's what I've been confused about since the beginning. You speak about decapitation, but you're not saying how. You seem to have a secret recipe that I don't seem to be privy of.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Can you explain how you remove the DRK? That's what I've been confused about since the beginning. You speak about decapitation, but you're not saying how. You seem to have a secret recipe that I don't seem to be privy of.

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Seiton Tenchu to kill and Raijus to support.
Like I said, I only need a simple coordination from any job with Salience and I can effectively kill a DK I do not recognize
If it is a DK i do recognize and it is a premade, I will mark him then ask jobs that can cast Salience to use Silence asap when they see him.
I will stop his support (BH DNC or Reaper) and Seiton Tenchu the DK if I have the chance.

Also, people are fed up with DK Premade.
If you notify which GC has DK Premade and ask alliance nicely to just focus DK Premade's GC, people are willing to comply
Make DK premade group suffers is what people are looking for now