The problem of melee similarity of gameplay

Melee DPS jobs are so similar, that make gameplay less fun and less to master for some jobs.

Jumping from samurai to dragoon isn't as big of a jump as from summoner to blackmage.

I was thinking if we can have different type of gameplay for each melee subclass.

Let's have a discussion and I want to introduce my suggestions:

since we have 3 types of melee (3 different gear) let's give each different type of gameplay:

rate from 1 to 5 (5 is highest - 1 is lowest)

1- Scouting (Ninja/Viper):
identity: Fast paced jobs with tons of OGCDs and highest buttons per minutes and mobility with no animation lock for all attacks and No positional.

High OGCDs is tradeoff of having no Positionals and animation lock

OGCDS: 5
Mobility: 5
Positionals: 1.5
Animation Lock:1.5
defensive utility: 1.5

2- Striking (Monk/Samurai):
identity: medium speed jobs focus on performing combos with Positionals, have less buttons per minutes and few animations locked.

Having positional is tradeoff all around melee dps

OGCDS: 3
Mobility: 3
Positionals: 2.5
Animation Lock:2.5
defensive utility: 2.5

3- Maiming (Dragoon/Reaper):
identity: higher defense than other melees low speed jobs with higher impact GCD focusing on performing combos with animation locked, few GCDs that each have buff 35% defense increase for 3 second, and no Positionals.

defense increase is the trade of having animation lock

OGCDS: 1.5
Mobility: 1.5
Positionals: 1
Animation Lock:5
defensive utility:5


Note:
Lets have discussion do you agree? or you have different thoughts?

No thank you, Melees are fine the way they are right now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

Melee DPS jobs are so similar, that make gameplay less fun and less to master for some jobs.

Jumping from samurai to dragoon isn't as big of a jump as from summoner to blackmage.

I was thinking if we can have different type of gameplay for each melee subclass.

Let's have a discussion and I want to introduce my suggestions:

since we have 3 types of melee (3 different gear) let's give each different type of gameplay:

rate from 1 to 5 (5 is highest - 1 is lowest)

1- Scouting (Ninja/Viper):
identity: Fast paced jobs with tons of OGCDs and highest buttons per minutes and mobility with no animation lock for all attacks and No positional.

High OGCDs is tradeoff of having no Positionals and animation lock

OGCDS: 5
Mobility: 5
Positionals: 1.5
Animation Lock:1.5
defensive utility: 1.5

2- Striking (Monk/Samurai):
identity: medium speed jobs focus on performing combos with Positionals, have less buttons per minutes and few animations locked.

Having positional is tradeoff all around melee dps

OGCDS: 3
Mobility: 3
Positionals: 2.5
Animation Lock:2.5
defensive utility: 2.5

3- Maiming (Dragoon/Reaper):
identity: higher defense than other melees low speed jobs with higher impact GCD focusing on performing combos with animation locked, few GCDs that each have buff 35% defense increase for 3 second, and no Positionals.

defense increase is the trade of having animation lock

OGCDS: 1.5
Mobility: 1.5
Positionals: 1
Animation Lock:5
defensive utility:5


Note:
Lets have discussion do you agree? or you have different thoughts?

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I have heard that people are comparing MNK and VPR a lot and I think the issue is there but IDK if this could be the solution..
to me as BLM I like heavy feeling of the job Maiming suggestion changes look better IMO

I quite agree. Although I would say the problem extends beyond just melee DPS, but with so many of them right now, it of course first shows up there. A lot of extra elements play into it, too: How everything has to be aligned around a burst window every 2 minutes, how the only truly unique aspect of the entire role is that you get like 1 skill each with a side/rear requirement (and never anything fancier, wouldn't want to get too design-y about this!), that everything else is strictly homogenized, that bosses will never truly want to threaten any DPS outside of strictly designed mechanics meant to equalize role difference, and so on.

It leaves very little space for uniqueness.

But even within those confines, we could at least get a melee based on procs (ala Dancer) and one based on freely-selectable-order mini phases (ala Summoner). As little differentiation as that would be, it'd be a start.

This post literally says nothing.

First off, lets start with why you think the difficulty of jumping between SMN and BLM should be the same as jumping between DRG and SAM. If we were to put RDM on this, where does this fit? Is it closer to a SMN/DRG difference between RDM and SMN?

Now, onto the main point, how do the melees feel similar? and how would your supposed changes change that? Would sticking them into a more rigid framework for what it means to be 'scouting' increase how closely the jobs feel to each other? There is also nothing about making the gap between them bigger, or even how this would accomplish this.

So, Why do melee DPS feel so similar? Why does your proposed change break this 'mould' the melee dps are in and how does it differ to what we have?

Also, you cannot just say 'every melee follows a 2 minute burst and 1 minute mini burst' as that is every job in the game and not something specific to melee. So, how are we supposedly fixing melee?

I don't get why every time there's a post of this kind about reworking melees in some way, DRG always gets the "give them a low amount of/no positionals" or "make them GCD focused" when DRG has had 50% of its GCDs as positionals for years until DT changed it to 30% and one of its core features is precisely being one of the few DPS jobs whose damage profile is focused on oGCDs.

Proposing changes like those means not understanding how DRG works at all, although I suppose the effort is commendable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carighan

I quite agree. Although I would say the problem extends beyond just melee DPS, but with so many of them right now, it of course first shows up there. A lot of extra elements play into it, too: How everything has to be aligned around a burst window every 2 minutes, how the only truly unique aspect of the entire role is that you get like 1 skill each with a side/rear requirement (and never anything fancier, wouldn't want to get too design-y about this!), that everything else is strictly homogenized, that bosses will never truly want to threaten any DPS outside of strictly designed mechanics meant to equalize role difference, and so on.

It leaves very little space for uniqueness.

But even within those confines, we could at least get a melee based on procs (ala Dancer) and one based on freely-selectable-order mini phases (ala Summoner). As little differentiation as that would be, it'd be a start.

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2min meta is killing the job design..

Shadowbringers was smoother place for me regarding job design but not perfect by any means it started the homogenization,

I wish if we can get to the point where switching new job is like playing the same game but feels different.
Tanks feels like DPS with high defense
Melee is better than casters but still little room for variation.
Healers.. huh Yeah healers.

Elder Ring and Monster Hunter World is a great example of switching to another weapon feels like playing a different game.

Ninja and Viper play very differently, Ninja has a much busier burst while Viper is just about constant attacking. Only melees that really feels super different in the same gear sub role.

Monk and Samurai are similar, Mesui and Perfect balance both allow you to press any GCD in your combo while Iaijutsu and blitz are both burst attacks tied to GCDs though MNK has a fail state while SAM doesn't. SAM has more oGCDs and no utility while MNK does, MNK also has a raidbuff.

Dragoon and Reaper are both burst phase jobs though RPR is a lot more open while DRG is rigid. The main difference between the two is RPR has a weakness dot while DRG has a two path GCD combo. They're not as unique as the scouting twins but not as identical as the striking twins.

The melees are relatively similar but can be very different feeling, I think the main problem is every single one is a burst job which is a problem for every single job in the game. Like monk blitz isn't really a good system imo, monk could work as sustained damage, I also think Ninja could of work like this too. DRG, SAM and RPR are too burst designed to get rid of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

Ninja and Viper play very differently, Ninja has a much busier burst while Viper is just about constant attacking. Only melees that really feels super different in the same gear sub role.

Monk and Samurai are similar, Mesui and Perfect balance both allow you to press any GCD in your combo while Iaijutsu and blitz are both burst attacks tied to GCDs though MNK has a fail state while SAM doesn't. SAM has more oGCDs and no utility while MNK does, MNK also has a raidbuff.

Dragoon and Reaper are both burst phase jobs though RPR is a lot more open while DRG is rigid. The main difference between the two is RPR has a weakness dot while DRG has a two path GCD combo. They're not as unique as the scouting twins but not as identical as the striking twins.

The melees are relatively similar but can be very different feeling, I think the main problem is every single one is a burst job which is a problem for every single job in the game. Like monk blitz isn't really a good system imo, monk could work as sustained damage, I also think Ninja could of work like this too. DRG, SAM and RPR are too burst designed to get rid of it.

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VPR and Ninja feels different but not VPR and Monk

My idea is to reshape the gameplay aspect not the playstyle
For example:

Gameplay of Ninja and Viper should be the same,
Fast paced, fast range and melee attacks

Playstyle should be different:
Viper uses double blade instead of ninjutsu with Ninja

They play differently in playstyle but same in gameplay aspect

Other melee sub roles should follow the same paradigm
MNK shouldnot play like VPR

Samurai is perfect fitting the role having positional and animation lock for it's big attack
MNK should feel more like Samurai than VPR

Dragoon and RPR needs alot of work
They can be just another striking subclass at this point
They are good in someway but they still have no identity for its subrole

They should feel different but with minimal similarity

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

Monk and Samurai are similar, Mesui and Perfect balance both allow you to press any GCD in your combo while Iaijutsu and blitz are both burst attacks tied to GCDs though MNK has a fail state while SAM doesn't.

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SAM's failure state is actually pretty similar to MNK; if you mess up and don't get three Sen you're stuck doing Tenka Gouken unless you spend at least two more GCDs to get through Yukikaze, by which point your opener/burst is toast. If anything, Celestial Revolution is more embarrassing but less punishing, because you at least get the consolation nadi. Unless your goal was double lunar, but if you somehow failed that you are beyond the power of Goku to save.

I see absolutely no reason to replace perceived inter-role homogeneity with intentional intra-role homogeneity.

If melee are overly similar, that's a reason to address job design and build upon their unique aspects (e.g., the twin blades vs. double-blade of Viper, the inner energy of Monk, the jumps/dives of Dragoon, etc.) to make their shared portions a smaller part of the noticeable whole by expanding the gameplay of each, not a reason to make each job more similar to its opposite in its gear type (NIN to VPR, DRG to RPR, MNK to SAM).