7.0 What if WoL rode the train?

After 7.0 I'm rather curious about what could have happened if the WoL and Erenville were on the first train when the dome appeared. That would have placed both of them inside the dome during the 30 year time bubble and would have had a chance to immediately respond to Alexandria's arrival.

Could/would they stop Zoraal Ja's ascension or even kill him early? Could they prevent the attack on Tuliyollal? How quickly do the Scions get summoned in via the Azem crystal? Could they shorten the 30 year timeline?

The characters moving into a time that runs faster than the source is always to their benefit, it’s why it doesn’t matter if living memory is still running faster than the source or has aligned because it only benefits the protagonists relative to source time

If the WOL had travelled on the train and did or didn’t summon the scions they would have fixed the problem of Alexandria in seconds by source timekeeping

The only problem they could run into with time dilation is if they move to a shard that runs slower than the source because then time spent in the shard would be amplified on the source

My bet: Zoraal Ja doesn't last a week, and the invasion never happens. And in doing so, the entirety of the Source is doomed.

I don't think that, without the immediate threat of the invasion, Tural breaks into the dome as quickly and forcefully as they do, so we're probably there for longer than thirty years. This doesn't shorten the thirty year timeline: it lengthens it. But that doesn't actually factor that much to my reckoning; it's Oblivion that gets the Origenics infiltration plan together, and all we really provided was the impetus to put it into action. However, I can reason that everything afterwards still happens: once Zoraal Ja's out, Sphene takes the key and retreats to Living Memory. And we follow, right?

...well, no, we don't; the gate to the golden city is off in the Skydeep Cenote, which we can't access because it'll take more than thirty years for us to get out. ...and we just truncated Sphene's timeline of erasing her memories and going ahead with dimensional fusion by about thirty years. Meaning, nobody stops the Queen Eternal.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

My bet: Zoraal Ja doesn't last a week, and the invasion never happens. And in doing so, the entirety of the Source is doomed.

I don't think that, without the immediate threat of the invasion, Tural breaks into the dome as quickly and forcefully as they do, so we're probably there for longer than thirty years. This doesn't shorten the thirty year timeline: it lengthens it. But that doesn't actually factor that much to my reckoning; it's Oblivion that gets the Origenics infiltration plan together, and all we really provided was the impetus to put it into action. However, I can reason that everything afterwards still happens: once Zoraal Ja's out, Sphene takes the key and retreats to Living Memory. And we follow, right?

...well, no, we don't; the gate to the golden city is off in the Skydeep Cenote, which we can't access because it'll take more than thirty years for us to get out. ...and we just truncated Sphene's timeline of erasing her memories and going ahead with dimensional fusion by about thirty years. Meaning, nobody stops the Queen Eternal.

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If we defeat zarool ja inside the barrier Sphene can’t “retreat” to living memory because under the dome living memory is connected to the everkeep because at the time they are inside the same shard, tural does nothing to break the dome, the dome is forced back into the shard by zarool ja completing vanguard

It’s only when vanguard forces the dome into the source that living memory becomes disconnected existing alone within the shard Alexandria originally came from so Sphene can use the key to force the gate closed

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It’s only when vanguard forces the dome into the source that living memory becomes disconnected existing alone within the shard Alexandria originally came from so Sphene can use the key to force the gate closed

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But... those thirty years had to have elapsed specifically in the period between when the orb appeared, and when we broke into Vanguard; that thirty year period is specifically from the perspective of Yyasulani, we're essentially putting the WoL on a seat right next to Namikka. Meaning that in the hypothetical posed by this thread, the WoL can't be at the Everkeep before it becomes part of Heritage Found, rather than the Unlost World, meaning that yes, the portal's there in this hypothetical.

The way that the WoL theoretically could've gotten to the Everkeep pre-Heritage Found is if they instead went through the Skydeep gate, like Zoraal Ja did.

1. We follow the movement of troops to find the location of Zoraal Ja.

2. We find Zoraal Ja, nowhere near as powerful as he was after the time jump, and we rip his head off his shoulders.

3. We take the chalice off his corpse. Sphene starts to complain, we tell her we might cooperate if she opens the front door.

4. We, as well as the now-displaced residents of Yyasulani, walk out the front door.

5. Three expansions later, Sphene gets tired of waiting and starts the invasion herself, only for it to be a poor leadup to a non-MSQ trial. Living Memory becomes a new Bozja.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

But... those thirty years had to have elapsed specifically in the period between when the orb appeared, and when we broke into Vanguard; that thirty year period is specifically from the perspective of Yyasulani, we're essentially putting the WoL on a seat right next to Namikka. Meaning that in the hypothetical posed by this thread, the WoL can't be at the Everkeep before it becomes part of Heritage Found, rather than the Unlost World, meaning that yes, the portal's there in this hypothetical.

The way that the WoL theoretically could've gotten to the Everkeep pre-Heritage Found is if they instead went through the Skydeep gate, like Zoraal Ja did.

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During the 30 years yassoulani experienced that the source didn’t the everkeep and heritage found were one whole however they were in Alexandria’s shard; not the source. So yyasoulani, the everkeep and living memory (the 12th floor of the everkeep) were all in Alexandria’s shard during the 30 year period. In that time the everkeep doesn’t change, only yyasoulani does

So if the WOL defeated zarool ja by being pulled into the dome by taking the first train Sphene couldn’t retreat to living memory because it’s all part of the same shard. The reason zarool ja used the skydeep portal to find Sphene was because before the dome appeared skydeep’s gate was the only thing that connected the source to Alexandria’s shard

So if the WOL took the first train it would have only benefited the WOL/scions as zarool ja wouldn’t have been able to invade and sphene wouldn’t have been able to retreat

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

During the 30 years yassoulani experienced that the source didn’t the everkeep and heritage found were one whole however they were in Alexandria’s shard; not the source. So yyasoulani, the everkeep and living memory (the 12th floor of the everkeep) were all in Alexandria’s shard during the 30 year period. In that time the everkeep doesn’t change, only yyasoulani does

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Can you provide a source for this? Because honestly that doesn't sound like anything I've seen, as well as sounding unnecessarily complicated as a plot beat; why write that Yyasulani got removed form the Source, merged with Alexandria and then plopped back down into the Source over the course of forty seconds of a cutscene, when it could instead just be 'Alexandria got grafted onto Yyasulani at the moment that a big lightning orb appeared around it'?

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Can you provide a source for this? Because honestly that doesn't sound like anything I've seen, as well as sounding unnecessarily complicated as a plot beat; why write that Yyasulani got removed form the Source, merged with Alexandria and then plopped back down into the Source over the course of forty seconds of a cutscene, when it could instead just be 'Alexandria got grafted onto Yyasulani at the moment that a big lightning orb appeared around it'?

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The key taking yyasoulani into Alexandria’s shard is precisely why the citizens of yyasoulani experienced 30 years of time passage the rest of the source did not

It’s when vanguard is completed physically connecting the two that it forces yyasoulani back into the source

If yyasoulani wasn’t in Alexandria’s shard it never would have experienced time dilation, the dome appearing is when the everkeep and yyasoulani fuse by sending it to Alexandria’s shard via the key

I was under the impression that Everkeep became part of The Source the moment the dome appeared; and the 30 years dilation occurred on the source, within the dome. I was also under the impression the dilation stopped when the troupes left the dome, which from canon WoL's perspective is a few seconds. I think it's fair to say any and all of that is a bit up in the air considering we only canon see the place after it's all done.

Well maybe not all of it. Zoraal Ja clearly goes through a bit of a time jump between going into the gate and killing his father.

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

1. We follow the movement of troops to find the location of Zoraal Ja.

2. We find Zoraal Ja, nowhere near as powerful as he was after the time jump, and we rip his head off his shoulders.

3. We take the chalice off his corpse. Sphene starts to complain, we tell her we might cooperate if she opens the front door.

4. We, as well as the now-displaced residents of Yyasulani, walk out the front door.

5. Three expansions later, Sphene gets tired of waiting and starts the invasion herself, only for it to be a poor leadup to a non-MSQ trial. Living Memory becomes a new Bozja.

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This one I find hilarious! :D

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

My bet: Zoraal Ja doesn't last a week, and the invasion never happens. And in doing so, the entirety of the Source is doomed.

I don't think that, without the immediate threat of the invasion, Tural breaks into the dome as quickly and forcefully as they do, so we're probably there for longer than thirty years. This doesn't shorten the thirty year timeline: it lengthens it. But that doesn't actually factor that much to my reckoning; it's Oblivion that gets the Origenics infiltration plan together, and all we really provided was the impetus to put it into action. However, I can reason that everything afterwards still happens: once Zoraal Ja's out, Sphene takes the key and retreats to Living Memory. And we follow, right?

...well, no, we don't; the gate to the golden city is off in the Skydeep Cenote, which we can't access because it'll take more than thirty years for us to get out. ...and we just truncated Sphene's timeline of erasing her memories and going ahead with dimensional fusion by about thirty years. Meaning, nobody stops the Queen Eternal.

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First off, I think this is a good read. ^^ That said, a few points:

Even if we can't get to the Golden City, we can get to Living Memory through the giant sky vortex that Sphene uses to get there. We have flying mounts, and if for whatever reason those don't work because of wind currents or whatever, the Warrior of Light would be able to make new friends who construct something that can go up a lot (like a simple rocket, Electrope lift, etc) in the same way that we repeatedly demonstrated during Shadowbringers.

But that said, I don't even think that would be necessary. Because when we beat up Zoraal Ja, he drops the device that's necessary for dimensional fusion. And without Scions or Wuk Lamat there to paralyze us with a monologue, we would simply go pick it up, meaning that Sphene doesn't get it.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

First off, I think this is a good read. ^^ That said, a few points:

Even if we can't get to the Golden City, we can get to Living Memory through the giant sky vortex that Sphene uses to get there. We have flying mounts, and if for whatever reason those don't work because of wind currents or whatever, the Warrior of Light would be able to make new friends who construct something that can go up a lot (like a simple rocket, Electrope lift, etc) in the same way that we repeatedly demonstrated during Shadowbringers.

But that said, I don't even think that would be necessary. Because when we beat up Zoraal Ja, he drops the device that's necessary for dimensional fusion. And without Scions or Wuk Lamat there to paralyze us with a monologue, we would simply go pick it up, meaning that Sphene doesn't get it.

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So, I think your problem here is that you're writing for 'the WoL as played by a player with absolutely no respect for the writing around them'. But if anything, the WoL is just as weak to 'listening to heartfelt/informative monologues' as anyone else in this universe; the moment Sphene starts talking about her ultimate plan, they're glaring along and unwilling to do anything. (Not that it's easy to stop Sphene, given that she's every single sentry.) In fact I'd argue that the WoL is below average in this field; at least Y'shtola took some shots. Not that I even think this is a viable angle in this context anyway, because we weren't 'paralyzed by speeches' in that scene; there's literally one line between when Zoraal Ja drops the key and when Sphene turns up to take it, and she takes it via telepathy.

But it's not like the road is clear if you do get to Living Memory, I actually think there's an insurmountible barrier that I just didn't bring up because my hypothetical didn't even get to that point: Cahciua's not there, so we have no plan of attack. Sphene's plan is going to be much the same as it was in the game itself, but without Cahciua to give us any direction at all--especially not the way to get into the Meso Terminal--we just can't actually stop Sphene once we're there. Your best hope is that maybe Robor and Alayla have an idea, but because this hypothetical actually means we never learn Krile's backstory, we don't know who they are either, and they're probably not opening up to us without a Krile to pour her heart out.

If I had to guess, we'd probably just kill Zoraal Ja long before he invades. But killing the King of Resolve would end up transferring full military authority back to the Queen of Reason, and Zoraal Ja did promise Sphene a lot of souls, so she would likely start the invasion herself. That gives us an out through Vanguard, then we'll annihilate the Alexandrian military and Sphene will retreat to Living Memory.

But then comes the problem. Krile has the key but not the authority, so we can't get through the gate. But I'm sure Y'shtola can magic up some arcane solution in the end.

So in the end, what would happen outside the dome wouldn't be too different other than Gulool Ja Ja surviving because Zoraal Ja is already dead before the invasion.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

The WoL is just as weak to 'listening to heartfelt/informative monologues' as anyone else in this universe; the moment Sphene starts talking about her ultimate plan, they're glaring along and unwilling to do anything. (Not that it's easy to stop Sphene, given that she's every single sentry.) In fact I'd argue that the WoL is below average in this field; at least Y'shtola took some shots. Not that I even think this is a viable angle in this context anyway, because we weren't 'paralyzed by speeches' in that scene; there's literally one line between when Zoraal Ja drops the key and when Sphene turns up to take it, and she takes it via telepathy.

But it's not like the road is clear if you do get to Living Memory, I actually think there's an insurmountible barrier that I just didn't bring up because my hypothetical didn't even get to that point: Cahciua's not there, so we have no plan of attack. Sphene's plan is going to be much the same as it was in the game itself, but without Cahciua to give us any direction at all--especially not the way to get into the Meso Terminal--we just can't actually stop Sphene once we're there. Your best hope is that maybe Robor and Alayla have an idea, but because this hypothetical actually means we never learn Krile's backstory, we don't know who they are either, and they're probably not opening up to us without a Krile to pour her heart out.

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These are all decent points. There is one factor that could aid the WoL in this matter though and ironically for your argument it's time. There were 30 years of power spent by Living Memory before the WoL originally shows up. Sure Sphene is actively seeking out solutions now, but if it could hold out another 30 years then it's a possibility that she would be open to negotiation. You do a rather good job of painting the deck against the WoL though lol.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

You do a rather good job of painting the deck against the WoL though lol.

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The thing with FFXIV is that it's a character-driven story with a lot of characters; the end of a story is ultimately the culmination of a lot of people's individual journeys. As a result, it becomes really hard to pose a 'what-if' that doesn't end worse, because we tend to be faced with only problems this particular lineup of characters can solve.

Stopping Sphene is ultimately the culmination of multiple character journeys: most prominently Krile, Cahciua (and therefore Erenville by extension), and a couple we never mentioned, like Gulool Ja and Wuk Lamat; the fact that the Queen Eternal is even beatable when we do get there is because Wuk Lamat connects with Sphene enough to get her to actually stop. That does mean that the problems in front of us are often very specific problems, that can't just be dismissed or easily done by someone else, because Character X doing Thing Y is an important part of their journey.

Random thought with no logical basis:

What if it’s the WoL themselves that cause time-locking. Thus far, the time locks we’ve observed so far only really happen once we cross over. Sure, probably coincidence…but you know what they say: one time a fluke, two a coincidence, three a pattern. We’re so far 2 for 2.

I only say 2 because I’m not sure about time on the 13th.

My money says time would sync as soon as the WoL gets inside, and there simply wouldn’t be a 30 year gap.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Random thought with no logical basis:

What if it’s the WoL themselves that cause time-locking. Thus far, the time locks we’ve observed so far only really happen once we cross over. Sure, probably coincidence…but you know what they say: one time a fluke, two a coincidence, three a pattern. We’re so far 2 for 2.

I only say 2 because I’m not sure about time on the 13th.

My money says time would sync as soon as the WoL gets inside, and there simply wouldn’t be a 30 year gap.

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Heritage Found's time synced up when Vanguard was completed and the invasion was launched. It had nothing to do with the WOL.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

So, I think your problem here is that you're writing for 'the WoL as played by a player with absolutely no respect for the writing around them'. But if anything, the WoL is just as weak to 'listening to heartfelt/informative monologues' as anyone else in this universe; the moment Sphene starts talking about her ultimate plan, they're glaring along and unwilling to do anything. (Not that it's easy to stop Sphene, given that she's every single sentry.) In fact I'd argue that the WoL is below average in this field; at least Y'shtola took some shots. Not that I even think this is a viable angle in this context anyway, because we weren't 'paralyzed by speeches' in that scene; there's literally one line between when Zoraal Ja drops the key and when Sphene turns up to take it, and she takes it via telepathy.

But it's not like the road is clear if you do get to Living Memory, I actually think there's an insurmountible barrier that I just didn't bring up because my hypothetical didn't even get to that point: Cahciua's not there, so we have no plan of attack. Sphene's plan is going to be much the same as it was in the game itself, but without Cahciua to give us any direction at all--especially not the way to get into the Meso Terminal--we just can't actually stop Sphene once we're there. Your best hope is that maybe Robor and Alayla have an idea, but because this hypothetical actually means we never learn Krile's backstory, we don't know who they are either, and they're probably not opening up to us without a Krile to pour her heart out.

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Once we decide to respect that characters are poorly/unnaturally written when it serves the writer's whims — such as just standing still as the big bad slowly walks past you and picks up the McGuffin of Power — we have started interacting with the story on a meta level where another aspect of the writing is inescapable: the Warrior of Light will triumph.

In other words, if we incorporate into our arguments the fact that the writers often arbitrarily have our entire team depart from common sense behavior when it serves to prolong the narrative, then to remain even-handed we should also be incorporating the fact that the writers will not write a story where our WoL does not eventually succeed, because ultimately the story is written in service to the player. They may not win every individual battle, as folks like Ranjit and Zenos have demonstrated, but we will never truly be defeated in a way that matters, nor will we ever end up in a situation where we are unable to go on to enact positive change in the world.

To be clear, I don't think there's a right or wrong path to take in regards to whether or not we should incorporate "the writer" into our hypothetical alternative narratives. But once we choose a path, we should stay consistent.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Once we decide to respect that characters are poorly/unnaturally written when it serves the writer's whims — such as just standing still as the big bad slowly walks past you and picks up the McGuffin of Power — we have started interacting with the story on a meta level where another aspect of the writing is inescapable: the Warrior of Light will triumph.

In other words, if we incorporate into our arguments the fact that the writers often arbitrarily have our entire team depart from common sense behavior when it serves to prolong the narrative, then to remain even-handed we should also be incorporating the fact that the writers will not write a story where our WoL does not eventually succeed, because ultimately the story is written in service to the player. They may not win every individual battle, as folks like Ranjit and Zenos have demonstrated, but we will never truly be defeated in a way that matters, nor will we ever end up in a situation where we are unable to go on to enact positive change in the world.

To be clear, I don't think there's a right or wrong path to take in regards to whether or not we should incorporate "the writer" into our hypothetical alternative narratives. But once we choose a path, we should stay consistent.

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Okay, so essentially your view is that whatever the story becomes by altering it, it will warp in such a way that the WoL will win. If Sphene's new plan after we solo Zoraal Ja was to shoot us in the face seventeen times, because there was now only one person in her way, we would somehow be immune to seventeen bullets in the face.

I don't think this is an especially helpful way to approach the question, especially when you approach it as brute-force as you are; you're not providing interesting new ways to overcome these obstacles, you're asserting that the WoL would just... decide they aren't obstacles. It's also vastly at-odds with my own approach, which is to use this sort of thought experiment as a way to recognize the importance of every element of the story as we got it: that if we move the WoL away from the story path, but still expect them to perform their role, we see how important all elements of the story path are in their sudden absence.

Basically: you argue that the WoL would succeed regardless of how close they are to, for example, Krile in this story, while I argue that they hit a dead end without Krile. But neither of us are approaching this argument in a way that's actually speaking to the other party.

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Originally Posted by PorxiesRCute

Heritage Found's time synced up when Vanguard was completed and the invasion was launched. It had nothing to do with the WOL.

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Exactly, there is still every chance that living memory is not synced with the sources but since Alexandria’s shard has only ever moved faster than us moving in and out of living memory only works to our benefit anyway

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Okay, so essentially your view is that whatever the story becomes by altering it, it will warp in such a way that the WoL will win.

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No, you have wildly misunderstood what I was saying, because that is not my view. I'm simply saying that we need to be consistent. It is not consistent to tie ourselves to the unnatural contrivances of the writers in one context, but to depart from them in another. For any single conversation, we should flip the switch on or off.

To frame that to the current conversation: if we are going to depart from the contrived inevitability of the Warrior of Light's inevitable success, then we should also depart from the contrived notion that the Warrior of Light doesn't pick up the McGuffin of Power and instead lets the big bad slowly walk up to it and pick it up. These two things are part of the same package.

Zoraal Ja gets killed by the Warrior of Light, so the WoL is right next to him when he dies and drops the McGuffin of Power, ergo we pick it up because this isn't our first rodeo. Sphene's welcome to try to take it from us, but considering that her body is limited to the capabilities of robots that even a chump like Bakool Ja Ja can casually kill by the dozen, I don't see her being able to contend with us.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Zoraal Ja gets killed by the Warrior of Light, so the WoL is right next to him when he dies and drops the McGuffin of Power, ergo we pick it up because this isn't our first rodeo. Sphene's welcome to try to take it from us, but considering that her body is limited to the capabilities of robots that even a chump like Bakool Ja Ja can casually kill by the dozen, I don't see her being able to contend with us.

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Okay, then if your argument isn't about the story forcing itself to be in the same shape, it needs to answer these barriers, which will continue to exist, and are not actually solved by the WoL being your take-no-crap idealized self-insert now.

1. Sphene uses telekinesis to take the key, she never touches it.
2. Sphene is never actually in any of the sentries, so it doesn't matter how many of them you kill; she is in the Meso Terminal.
3. Even if you can fly through the portal, you can't get into the Meso Terminal, because Cahciua isn't dead yet.
4. In the astronomically unlikely chance that you get into the Meso Terminal despite this, I kind of imagine your WoL was not so friendly towards Sphene that she opens up and stops the onslaught in the Queen Eternal fight. So she's probably overpowering you, but I understand that out of all the barriers, this is the one that an idealized take-no-crap self-insert WoL has a decent chance to overcome.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

the WoL being your take-no-crap idealized self-insert now

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Interpreting "doing the obvious thing" as "idealized" seems hyperbolic.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

1. Sphene uses telekinesis to take the key, she never touches it.

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I think this is the big question, because whether this is overcome or not determines whether the rest of the questions are even on the table.

I'm curious where the telekinesis comes from and how much range it has. The fact that Sphene doesn't "pick it up" until her robot body is right next to it suggests to me that some aspect of the telekinesis may require that a robot be within a close proximity.

Also, pretty much everyone who can do things with aether has telekinesis. There have been numerous occasions where either the WoL or others move objects by simply holding out their hand. So it's not like Sphene is demonstrating some manner of capability that we lack here.

And if it comes down to a telekinesis tug-of-war, my best guess is that the Warrior of Light would be the victor, because Sphene was designed to be a motherly caretaker, not a construction worker. Which is to say, I think of the two, the Warrior of Light is the more likely to be able to increase the strength of their telekinesis to surpass that of the other.

So whether we simply pick it up or have to wrest it from her telekinetic grasp, I genuinely don't see any reason why she would be able to take it.

I think the conversation is getting a bit dragged into the weeds. I do think the WoL with or without the aid of the Scions would likely be able to find and end Zoraal Ja within the dome. What comes after though is a huge guess. With or without the relic, Sphene and the Alexandrians are a huge threat. I would also agree that without a son born to him, the command of the military would revert back to Sphene. However, considering this would all be happening much sooner timetable wise within the bubble, it is possible that Sphene would be even more open to discussion on the matter. Or given that she has less restrictions on her authority, she would be less open. It's a bit of a toss up. Ultimately, Sphene has more power and we have less information and no insider informant; but Living Memory has consumed less resources thus far.

If we break it down in terms of expected instances for an expansion then we would be short 2 trials and 2 or 3 dungeons at this point. I think Zoraal Ja would either be a final boss of a dungeon or a synced instance fight. Though if there is a dungeon inside the dome at this point, it would stand to reason that either WoL made quick capable friends inside or used the Azem crystal. Either way, it would be known that contact outside the dome doesn't work (largely due to the time distortion, though WoL may not know that yet).