Is Sphene a single AI or were there two of them?

Right now everyone is assuming there's only one Sphene that we've met. Yet, after reading a friend's thoughts about Sphene being upset about Zoraal ja using up the souls I started to wonder if we are sure there isn't two Sphenes. Heck right before I fought her as Queen Eternal it had made me think of the fight against Adel in FF VIII. Though during the Queen Eternal fight we never once had to worry about the health bar of the smaller Sphene in the middle of her chest. Unlike with the Adel fight where you had to make sure Rinoa didn't die or you'd get a game over screen.

We know that the devs don't give us parallels to other games in the franchise for no reason. In VIII sorceress can possess people including other sorceress. Where they're unable to act freely of their own. So what if we had a Sphene that was trying to fight the version of Sphene that Queen Eternal was? A Sphene that would have let Cahcuia find out a way to overide one of those floating bot's programming and send it outside of Living Memory. After all we are sent to the resistance by Sphene.

Then there's all the times she's about to spill the beans, but doesn't due to other security robots wandering nearby. Along with one of the last times we talk to her where she says something to us that was heavily distorted. It's the last memory we think of right before our fight with Queen Eternal. Why would she be worried about the security robots listening in on a conversation with us if they technically are her? Sure, at the time these talks happen the game wants us to think that Zoraal ja is listening to everything that they pick up when Sphene isn't "possessing" one. But what if that wasn't the entire reason why she'd stop herself from continuing on and nervously laugh while trying to change the subject.

What if that Sphene wanted us to destroy Queen Eternal so that she could finally go against that version of herself programming? Maybe Queen Eternal's programming is all Preservation's doing and the other Sphene is something that Krile's parents organization tried to accomplish but had to opt for a different plan due to something in their coding that made one overide the other?

From my understanding the AI created Sphene seemed to have two different ‘personalities’ because of the nature of being an AI based on pre-existing memories. Basically there was the ‘AI’ machine programming which was the base, with Sphene’s memories / soul stuck onto it like a Fortnite skin lol. Sphene herself might have chosen a different path, but as an AI she’d likely have had specific programming which would limit her from trying to sabotage Preservation / Living Memory. It’s not that she was ‘scared’ or ‘worried’ about telling everyone the truth of Living Memory, as much as she’d be physically incapable of doing anything that could potentially endanger it.

It’s also worth mentioning that after Wuk Lamat ‘wakes up’ AI Sphene, she resigns herself to the path she’s ended up on. If destroying us is what it takes to preserve her people it’s a sacrifice she would have gladly made. At that point, the ‘AI programming’, and the ‘Sphene personality’ were both in alignment.

I think ultimately, though Sphene herself might have done things differently, confrontation was unavoidable. I think Sphene’s memories of her love for Alexandria would’ve had her stand against us regardless of what the AI was telling her to do. She wouldn’t have done so lightly or without reservations, but I think things still would’ve ended the same.

That’s how I understood it anyway.

Lastly, I still feel like the post-credits scene showing Sphene’s crown suggest her story isn’t quite over yet. As an AI she’d be capable of essentially ‘living’ inside most electronics, so for all we know the crown could be a usb stick with a Sphene backup waiting to get copy+pasted onto a new body

There's only one Sphene we interact with throughout Dawntrail: an AI replica modeled on the living Sphene's memories, modified to prioritize Alexandria's preservation and the happiness of its citizens over all else. There's two layers to her - the memories and the programming - in constant competition throughout Dawntrail until her programming determines that her memories (personality) are detrimental to her purpose and she can't emotionally handle the grief and guilt it entails.

It is heavily implied that Sphene wants to stop but due to her personality and programming is unable to do so, so she names us her executioner and spirits everyone else away because she knows the PC is capable of defeating her. Never stated verbatim, but reading between the lines a little...

I mean... considering the undying love Alexandria's people had for her and the abundance of energy via electrope theres certainly another possibility in the form of something very well known to us...

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Originally Posted by Cilia

There's only one Sphene we interact with throughout Dawntrail: an AI replica modeled on the living Sphene's memories, modified to prioritize Alexandria's preservation and the happiness of its citizens over all else. There's two layers to her - the memories and the programming - in constant competition throughout Dawntrail until her programming determines that her memories (personality) are detrimental to her purpose and she can't emotionally handle the grief and guilt it entails.

It is heavily implied that Sphene wants to stop but due to her personality and programming is unable to do so, so she names us her executioner and spirits everyone else away because she knows the PC is capable of defeating her. Never stated verbatim, but reading between the lines a little...

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This. I recall dialogue that stated that when she was brought back as an Endless she was modified by Preservation to prioritize the wellbeing Alexandrian people above all else, without any real regard for how that might affect others. Which was also why she couldn't accept any alternative to Preservation's aether-plundering.

No. There was one Sphene and the program holding her captive. But the jailer felt trapped because it was stuck guarding it's prisoner, so it killed the prisoner to free itself. However, I don't think it was the program watching Sphene through the bots. I think it's an unseen big bad. After all, Preservation figured out how to preserve people within their lifetime, so where are they? I think it's this greater threat she was attempting to warn us about. She was a puppet queen attempting to tell us WHO, not WHAT was pulling her strings.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

There's only one Sphene we interact with throughout Dawntrail: an AI replica modeled on the living Sphene's memories, modified to prioritize Alexandria's preservation and the happiness of its citizens over all else. There's two layers to her - the memories and the programming - in constant competition throughout Dawntrail until her programming determines that her memories (personality) are detrimental to her purpose and she can't emotionally handle the grief and guilt it entails.

It is heavily implied that Sphene wants to stop but due to her personality and programming is unable to do so, so she names us her executioner and spirits everyone else away because she knows the PC is capable of defeating her. Never stated verbatim, but reading between the lines a little...

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Pretty much this. Sphene is a single entity at odds with itself. The top level "Queen Sphene" personality doesn't like what her underlying programming sometimes forces her to do, but she's essentially powerless to stop it.

And then the WoL came along and she finally saw a way out.

The Queen feels like an Anima being like from Relic Weapon Story, that was given the memories and personalities of the Original Queen, and through possibly programming or Enhanced by Crown, along with Eletrope/Azem Cup relic.

Anima are reflection of the soul

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Originally Posted by Hesitate89

The Queen feels like an Anima being like from Relic Weapon Story, that was given the memories and personalities of the Original Queen, and through possibly programming or Enhanced by Crown, along with Eletrope/Azem Cup relic.

Anima are reflection of the soul

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This actually brings up an interesting point. The Anima weapons are technically new souls, generated by trapping aether in the weapons using sealants and exposing them to the experiences (battles...) and experiments needed to cause that aether to pull in a fresh consciousness from the aetherial sea or craft one of its own.

Then there's arcanima, which are the simulated souls created by arcanists that don't have a consciousness or will of their own. They don't draw against the aetherial sea in the same way to create their life forms; those life forms are created with a set of instructions, not unlike a golem, and can be created and destroyed without remorse (unlike the guilt that constantly plagued Hermes for the Ancients creation of soul-bound life forms only to end up killing them if they didn't work out. Arcanima solve that problem.)

We know that the Milala were master arcanamists.

What if Sphene - and indeed all the Endless - are not anima, but arcanima instead? Just really really advanced ones.

Why do they need real soul energy then though?

Edit: Another thought - What if the collection of souls was being done by a Meteion that managed to cross over the shard barrier at some point?

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Originally Posted by Catwho

Then there's arcanima, which are the simulated souls created by arcanists that don't have a consciousness or will of their own. They don't draw against the aetherial sea in the same way to create their life forms; those life forms are created with a set of instructions, not unlike a golem, and can be created and destroyed without remorse (unlike the guilt that constantly plagued Hermes for the Ancients creation of soul-bound life forms only to end up killing them if they didn't work out. Arcanima solve that problem.)

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I think aetherial constructs like Carbuncle and Eos are a bit of a difficult comparison in this regard. These summoned beings are created from the summoner’s aether and sustained by it whilst manifest. Any constructs the Milala had created would’ve been ‘desummoned’ after they were wiped out by calamity. That’s not to mention, personal aether is a finite resource (Sylphie learned the hard way lol). There’d have to be a Dalamud-sized battery full of still-living Milala Arcanists all praying for the manifestation of Sphene/Living Memory/Etc.

The part about having no will or consciousness of their own is also highly debatable given Eos. Not only does she (attempt) to communicate (through inaudible whispers lol), and retain memories, but there are various points throughout the Scholar storyline where she actively acts counter to our instructions. Despite being created for and by someone else, the fairy is still able to exert its own will. Carbuncle I believe is the same, in that an inexperienced Arcanist will have trouble getting it to follow orders (like Tataru lol).

I’d liken Sphene/Living Memory more like moving projections of a once-dead person. They aren’t tangible physical things that can act outside of what the AI dictates. Like a picture except you can talk to it. Not only is it based on a specific context in that person’s life, but it’s not a complete representation of who/what that person was. The Living Memory projections were the same; approximation of what the people were to give comfort to the living, not fully realized manifestations of them who can live on after death. That’s my thoughts anyway

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Originally Posted by Connor

I think aetherial constructs like Carbuncle and Eos are a bit of a difficult comparison in this regard. These summoned beings are created from the summoner’s aether and sustained by it whilst manifest. Any constructs the Milala had created would’ve been ‘desummoned’ after they were wiped out by calamity. That’s not to mention, personal aether is a finite resource (Sylphie learned the hard way lol). There’d have to be a Dalamud-sized battery full of still-living Milala Arcanists all praying for the manifestation of Sphene/Living Memory/Etc.

The part about having no will or consciousness of their own is also highly debatable given Eos. Not only does she (attempt) to communicate (through inaudible whispers lol), and retain memories, but there are various points throughout the Scholar storyline where she actively acts counter to our instructions. Despite being created for and by someone else, the fairy is still able to exert its own will. Carbuncle I believe is the same, in that an inexperienced Arcanist will have trouble getting it to follow orders (like Tataru lol).

I’d liken Sphene/Living Memory more like moving projections of a once-dead person. They aren’t tangible physical things that can act outside of what the AI dictates. Like a picture except you can talk to it. Not only is it based on a specific context in that person’s life, but it’s not a complete representation of who/what that person was. The Living Memory projections were the same; approximation of what the people were to give comfort to the living, not fully realized manifestations of them who can live on after death. That’s my thoughts anyway

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You actually answered my question - arcanima use the summoner's energy, not their own. The Endless needed soul aether because if they were similar to an arcanima construct, they didn't have any aetherial reserves of their own.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

You actually answered my question - arcanima use the summoner's energy, not their own. The Endless needed soul aether because if they were similar to an arcanima construct, they didn't have any aetherial reserves of their own.

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Yeah, I think that’s why they needed ‘soul aether’ specifically rather than just being able to suck up any type they wanted. I guess in that sense you could call them ‘artificial souls’, like artificed ghosts almost.

When a creature like Eos/Carbuncle is summoned it’s given form by the thoughts and memories of the summoner - which is what we do see happening with the Living Memory inhabitants. Without those memories they’d likely lose their form, as there’s be no ‘concept of what they are’ left to give the soul aether form. Ironically, they (or the summoner) need to know what they look like, for them to look like anything in the first place. Had they tried to use bestial aether, for example, the Endless would have turned out looking like the things we see in Arcadion lol.

I think the biggest distinction between something we create like a Carbuncle and the Endless is the both method and how it’s formation works. Arcanists use geometric formulae to facilitate the construction of these beings, Summoners I believe do the same but utilise their own personal aether after it becomes affected by a defeating/encountering primal. Scholars I believe used written script. Each time, this method basically ‘turns what’s in the summoner’s mind into something real’.

For the Endless however, this part is done solely through technology. They soul aether is taken and converted by machinery, then stuck into whatever vessels they used for the Endless. Finally, the computer adds the memory data, which is what then gives that ‘Endless’ its appearance/form. It’s similar to summoning in practice, but the theory itself is very different. It’s not so much a ‘recreation’ of that person as it is a mannequin with that person’s face and memories, if that makes sense lol. Again, just my thoughts; I may turn out to be completely wrong

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Originally Posted by Connor

Yeah, I think that’s why they needed ‘soul aether’ specifically rather than just being able to suck up any type they wanted. I guess in that sense you could call them ‘artificial souls’, like artificed ghosts almost.

When a creature like Eos/Carbuncle is summoned it’s given form by the thoughts and memories of the summoner - which is what we do see happening with the Living Memory inhabitants. Without those memories they’d likely lose their form, as there’s be no ‘concept of what they are’ left to give the soul aether form. Ironically, they (or the summoner) need to know what they look like, for them to look like anything in the first place. Had they tried to use bestial aether, for example, the Endless would have turned out looking like the things we see in Arcadion lol.

I think the biggest distinction between something we create like a Carbuncle and the Endless is the both method and how it’s formation works. Arcanists use geometric formulae to facilitate the construction of these beings, Summoners I believe do the same but utilise their own personal aether after it becomes affected by a defeating/encountering primal. Scholars I believe used written script. Each time, this method basically ‘turns what’s in the summoner’s mind into something real’.

For the Endless however, this part is done solely through technology. They soul aether is taken and converted by machinery, then stuck into whatever vessels they used for the Endless. Finally, the computer adds the memory data, which is what then gives that ‘Endless’ its appearance/form. It’s similar to summoning in practice, but the theory itself is very different. It’s not so much a ‘recreation’ of that person as it is a mannequin with that person’s face and memories, if that makes sense lol. Again, just my thoughts; I may turn out to be completely wrong

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I think you're onto something and I hope we get more answers in 7.1.