Dawntrail Names are a Mess

So there I was finally playing the new expansion Dawntrail when I began to see weird names for the places. During my time playing I began to wonder how these names appear in Japanese, because if they are weird to us, it must be much more for such a well elaborated language such as the tradicional Kanji.

English
https://i.imgur.com/5Nk7mNB.png

Japanese
https://i.imgur.com/8UUVdGW.png

Translation
https://i.imgur.com/yzg34ZI.png

Really SE? Why don't you gave us the simplified version of places names instead of this letter salad? I can't even pronounce it, let alone remember where the place is when I need it.

Valid point tbh. Most westerners are so inept at linguistics that they say things like "such a well elaborated language such as the tradicional Kanji", so how could they be expected to sound out words written in their own alphabet?

...

In case it's not clear, I was being sarcastic.

A voiced cutscene even pronounces "Hhusatahwi" for you, and that's the most difficult one. Come on.

I'm no linguist, but I feel like we get away with it because more Germanic languages like English can more easily get away with long compound names, because our letters and syllables are a bit more... general-use? compared to something like kanji.

They're not the easiest to get at a glance, but are easily spoken once you actually look at how they're spelled (probably because they use uncommon syllables in modern English). I think they're fine.

A few things.

First, the name of these locations are undoubtedly borrowing from the naming conventions of various American (the continents) cultures. In English, there's an established convention for the way such names are written and spelled, and these are presumably following that convention. However, Japanese can't do that because it is a phonetic language. Which is to say, there is a 1-to-1 relationship between the way any word sounds and the way it is spelled. So a Japanese translation of such names isn't going to have the same written flavor that a language like English can offer. Additionally, it's not uncommon in Japanese for words that have been borrowed from other languages to be simplified, particularly when they have consecutive sounds that might feel odd to a Japanese speaker. All of which is to say, these are two different languages that have very different conventions, and to compare them side-by-side while being ignorant of these differences isn't going to result in a meaningful analysis.

Second, the "translations" you found have taken some liberties with their translation duties. Normally such a thing wouldn't be worth scrutinizing, but in the context of comparing what the Japanese got to what the English got, an honest comparison requires not sanding off any rough edges. Here are the romanizations of the kana you've provided:

• Saka Toraru (your mistranslation somehow failed to note that these were two distinct words and called it "Sacatlal")
• Shaarooni
• Huusatai
• Sheshene
• Mewaheizoon (while "zoon" can be translated to "zone" in some contexts, I think it's unlikely that was the intention in a map that is trying to elicit a wild west vibe)

And again, even though I've provided these, it would be hasty to directly compare these to the English. Especially when English is the language better suited to evoke the nuance of the cultures these names are drawing from.

I do consider your points valid. Moreover, I still think they should have provided a simple description of the place instead of using a dialect 1% of player base grasp. I took the Japanese version, and I know the translation I did was the one provided by a translator, because it does provide a simplified version of the names. Sheshene Blue Phosphrous Spring is much more easy to relate to. Mewahei Zone is much easy to relate than Mehwahhetsoan. Also my complain is not related to cultural places. I would complain the same if names were in German, like Grüner Hügel or Schwarzwald, for most people these name means close to nothing.

Also another point I would like to point out, during Stormblood we had contact with a place inspired by Japanese culture and it was properly localized as no one would ever get confused with the name of the places. It has a lot of Japanese names, but it was reasonable placed in a way westerners would grasp in the conditions which they were presented. That was a flawless work.

You used an online translator that guessed at what each set of syllables was supposed to mean. You don't even know any Japanese at all, how can you possibly say it was a good translation?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ronivan

I do consider your points valid. Moreover, I still think they should have provided a simple description of the place instead of using a dialect 1% of player base grasp. I took the Japanese version, and I know the translation I did was the one provided by a translator, because it does provide a simplified version of the names. Sheshene Blue Phosphrous Spring is much more easy to relate to. Mewahei Zone is much easy to relate than Mehwahhetsoan.

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There's nothing "more relatable" about the other spellings you're suggesting. More pronounceable at first glance, maybe, but it's not hard to get over that.

"Sheshene Blue Phosphorus" is far more cumbersome to say and write than "Sheshenewezi" – really, phosphorus is just as long and awkward as anything you're complaining about, besides that it's more familiar. (Also, for the record, blue phosphorus would localise in this case as "ceruleum".)

"Mewahei Zone" makes no sense – it would have me asking what a mewahei is and what defines its zone – and in any case, if you're paying any attention to the dialogue then there are plenty of references to the significance of the "hhetso" and you can see that word in the middle of the longer place-name and pick it apart as Mehwa-hhetso-an, even if you miss talking to the local information guide Tseppi who will explain that it means "the land where the hhetso graze". You can then further correlate this with some other place-names having the -an suffix and also connecting dots to the Mehwapyarra (capybara) mount, whose real-world name means "grass-eater" (or so Wikipedia tells me).

"Hhusatahwi Outpost" would be fine as an additional prompt for remembering the different towns, but I see no reason to compromise on the spelling itself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ronivan

Also my complain is not related to cultural places. I would complain the same if names were in German, like Grüner Hügel or Schwarzwald, for most people these name means close to nothing.

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Firstly, it's a "you problem" that you don't care what the words mean and don't want to hear things that fit the local language. The names add flavour to the setting and tell you what sort of real-world parallel cultures to expect.

But aside of that, your initial complaint isn't that they're using Schwarzwald instead of Black Forest, but the equivalent of complaining that they didn't call it "Shwartz World" instead just because part of the foreign name happens to sound like an unrelated English word.

Some additional things I forgot to address in my previous post:

Firstly, as Lilimo noted, the initial translation is dropping out the long vowels from Japanese, but it's also important to note that the English spelling is including those long vowels. What Lilimo has written as a double-o in "Shaalooni" isn't an English "ooh" but a drawn-out "oh" and the English version is using "oa" to represent that sound (see also Koana, "Koh-na").

I'm also fairly sure that these names get planned by the English localisers first (English being the more flexible language when it comes to representing foreign sounds) and then the Japanese version just has the closest spelling it can get using katakana, which inevitably mangles some elements of words.

I've been thinking about this a bit, so I want to take off my academic hat and speak from my own personal, subjective experience.

My brain can't immediately parse a word like "Hhusatahwi", and that makes sense, because I haven't spent a lot of time engaging with the cultures that have words like that. So when I'm reading something (and I'm already a slow reader) and a word like that pops up, I've got two options:

• Do a quick-and-dirty approximation in my head ("Hhuwi", for example).
• Slow down, take my time to really read and sound out the word to figure it out, and then continue.

To be clear, I don't think either of these options is morally superior. If you're rushed and just want to get through it, the fast way can be fine. But from my own experience, I'll say that I have mild regret for the times that I've done that. I can see how I encountered a minor challenge and — in my impatience — circumvented not only the richer experience, but also the opportunity to improve my real-world ability to read unfamiliar words.

In that sense, this thread has encouraged me to try to slow down a little. To take the time to savor the journey a bit more, even if it delays my arrival at the destination. Because even though they're somewhere between "borrowed" and "fake", Dawntrail is giving me the opportunity to experience different cultures than my own. If I were to go on a summer vacation, I would want to experience the locale as "authentically" as possible. Let me truly immerse myself and twist my tongue expanding my horizons rather than allowing myself to be limited by my past experiences. If I could truly choose between the "sanitized" beach resort experience and one where I'm out experiencing the true culture, I'll take the latter every time. (We have plenty beach resorts in my country!)

But that's just my experience. I'm sharing it just in case anything within speaks to you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ronivan

So there I was finally playing the new expansion Dawntrail when I began to see weird names for the places. During my time playing I began to wonder how these names appear in Japanese, because if they are weird to us, it must be much more for such a well elaborated language such as the tradicional Kanji.

English
https://i.imgur.com/5Nk7mNB.png

Japanese
https://i.imgur.com/8UUVdGW.png

Translation
https://i.imgur.com/yzg34ZI.png

Really SE? Why don't you gave us the simplified version of places names instead of this letter salad? I can't even pronounce it, let alone remember where the place is when I need it.

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Localizer apologists will unironically defend this. It'd be one thing if these were the names of actual real-world places but this is a video game why are the EN names so long?? I am NOT typing all of this.

In game you are told by a Hhusatahwi that the 1st H is silent. The people who live in that area named after that location. We already knew how to read and say Shaloni. My guess is that they wanted Southwestern native american feel for the names.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iscah

"Sheshene Blue Phosphorus" is far more cumbersome to say and write than "Sheshenewezi" – really, phosphorus is just as long and awkward as anything you're complaining about, besides that it's more familiar. (Also, for the record, blue phosphorus would localise in this case as "ceruleum".)

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Just call it "Ceruleum Springs".
It's now the most descriptive and easiest to mentally parse of all of the Shaaloani zones.