Which Extreme trials require strategy/communication?

I haven't done much in the way of Extreme fights for a few years, so I'm hoping some knowledgeable folks can help guide me on a specific question I have.

From what I've gathered, at present Extremes generally require some manner of communication and/or agreed upon strategy so that specific people don't overlap certain duties. For example, you need to know in advance that person A and B are going to stand at location X during mechanic M, because it's unlikely that people would organically distribute themselves as needed in real time. This is in contrast to normal/casual difficulty content where you don't need to ever communicate a specific strategy or divide up responsibilities, and instead can just iteratively play in absolute silence to organically get that win.

So I was surprised when I did a synced run of Shiva Extreme the other day and was reminded that there was nothing in the fight that required communication or group strategy. Without coordinating anything or agreeing on a strategy, going with the flow was enough to succeed.

Which leads to my question: was there a change in Extreme design at some point that transitioned from this older design that doesn't require group strategy/communication to the newer design that does? And if so, when did that transition happen?

Or if there isn't a specific point of inflection, I'm curious to learn what other fights in the Extreme category don't require this kind of communication.

Thanks for helping me get a better understanding of the various Extremes we have access to!

The best hint: if unsure, look for guides on youtube and then join/make a practice party. For older extremes they can take a bit before they fill up, but its reliable to practice.

And especialy when outgeared people barely care.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

The best hint: if unsure, look for guides on youtube and then join/make a practice party.

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The thing is, I actually want to avoid looking at guides because I prefer going in blind. That's why I was hoping someone could point out if there was a pattern. For example, if it was like "Extremes started requiring explicit coordination in Stormblood's 3rd Extreme", then I know to focus my efforts on the fights before that and to not try to setup blind runs for the fights after it, at least not with any expectation that we could complete it without communication/coordination.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

The thing is, I actually want to avoid looking at guides because I prefer going in blind.

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Fair reason to not look them up, although for some extremes this might be quite painfull. But it gets worse when you also dont want to do them in unsync.

But for that there is a potential fallback that might be just enough to get some ideas of a fight before going in blind, and that are the macros they use (a short 15 line overview of key mechanics, no real explenation, just some location overviews to guide you)

For all older expansions you are going to get a hard time finding players, unless you can involve some f2ps in the NN. As then doing stormblood extremes in sync is something you can go for. Dont underestimate those that are deliberately staying f2p, they can be very good at the game and make those extremes well doable. I would however look for extremes that do have a very gracefull item level limit on them, usualy the first 2 or 3 of each expac. This gracefull item level part does make a huge diffirence. But even then there is no guarantee.

Currently 1 extreme to which you could get more people to help would actualy be thordan, since this has been the unreal recently, and the mechanics match, most players do remember the mechanics well, and does show the same sort of requirements that later extremes also involve (some things are disgusting to face).

If unsync is an option, then probably some of the shb trials work. Even when stating blind, those who want to farm can quickly aid you through it.

But yeah, if going blind and sync, you probably are for a while stuck at stormblood and lower and most likely have to rely on the NN to find players faster. Or you wait until the newest extreme is released and go in there (the first day going in blind is quite normal as strategies are rarely made at that time or very limited to such degree it wont affect anything)

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

Fair reason to not look them up, although for some extremes this might be quite painfull. But it gets worse when you also dont want to do them in unsync.
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But yeah, if going blind and sync, you probably are for a while stuck at stormblood and lower and most likely have to rely on the NN to find players faster. Or you wait until the newest extreme is released and go in there (the first day going in blind is quite normal as strategies are rarely made at that time or very limited to such degree it wont affect anything)

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I'm unsure if I'm following what you're saying correctly, so I'll ask one clarifying question: are you saying that the newest Extreme trials can be completed without any communication with your party members and without agreeing on any strategies? If that's the case, then maybe I've misunderstood, as I thought that modern Extremes require some amount of explicit strategizing (whether via macro, PF message, chat, markers, etc) that modern normal content does not.

New extremes will kick your teeth in if you do it blind. You will wipe many times and/or annoy other players if you keep making the same mistake (at least without talking about why).

Typically need pairs, light parties, strategy/mechanic specific markers, etc. Body checks necessitate this.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I'm unsure if I'm following what you're saying correctly, so I'll ask one clarifying question: are you saying that the newest Extreme trials can be completed without any communication with your party members and without agreeing on any strategies? If that's the case, then maybe I've misunderstood, as I thought that modern Extremes require some amount of explicit strategizing (whether via macro, PF message, chat, markers, etc) that modern normal content does not.

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The newest extremes involve a lot of communication. Usualy just to get an idea of what you are supposed to do. Looking up guides isnt an option for day1 trials so sharing information has to be done a diffirent way. Sure, some worlds first completion videos might help. But for extremes a lot of players just dont bother watching these, many people dont care as much about a first day completion.

A lot of common patterns do repeat, so having some knowledge does help. But trails usualy dont do anything strange, all 'invisible' mechanics are always revealed in normal mode as the ability name doesnt change. Then there are some commonly repeated mechanics that often dont show in normal mode (like enums/pairs). And some effects are revealed through debuffs, or at least involve a very clear indicator. This makes trials very approachable blind on day 1. The difficulty here is usualy due to having more complex combined attacks, which then requires more specific patterns to react to it.

But even then, at day 2 (where there often is a guide), people will expect you to have watched it. It just solves a big part of trying to figure out some of the more complex patterns and gives a much more calm/clear overview of the fight.

So for the current DT extremes, watching a guide is mandatory unless you want to get kicked, or make your own blind party. But the ones that they will add later might quite easily allow you to go in blind into a practice party. Going in blind on day 1 is party of its charm. But in the end, you should be willing to watch a guide if you want a more gracefull experience. As in many cases you otherwise would never be able to see the late mechanics of the fight (or you take a day of on day 1 and play it 12h straight).

If you make your own party stating blind however, if people complain, they should have read the description before complaining. So if you want to go for that, its a safe thing to do. It can just take quite some time to fill up (and often not everyone in the party is blind which helps when getting stuck at mechanics). And this way nearly any trial can be started.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

are you saying that the newest Extreme trials can be completed without any communication with your party members and without agreeing on any strategies?

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Obviously, the first parties to clear a fight are doing so blind. They don't have markers. They don't have The One Blessed Strategy. At best, they know what the normal mode of the fight was like, and they have their prior experience of how SE likes to change things up between the normal vs. the extreme.

Now, given that, can the newest Extremes be blind progged without any communication amongst the party? I have my doubts that it'd be fun or productive.

My own experience is that parties that have watched a guide on The One Blessed Strategy, that have The One Blessed Set of Markers placed on the arena, that do the obligatory Setup Dance before pulling, that do talk amongst themselves... these parties still wipe repeatedly before getting their first clear.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Obviously, the first parties to clear a fight are doing so blind. They don't have markers. They don't have The One Blessed Strategy. At best, they know what the normal mode of the fight was like, and they have their prior experience of how SE likes to change things up between the normal vs. the extreme.

Now, given that, can the newest Extremes be blind progged without any communication amongst the party? I have my doubts that it'd be fun or productive.

My own experience is that parties that have watched a guide on The One Blessed Strategy, that have The One Blessed Set of Markers placed on the arena, that do the obligatory Setup Dance before pulling, that do talk amongst themselves... these parties still wipe repeatedly before getting their first clear.

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The way you put this has been really helpful; I was actually thinking of your post in the difficulty thread while I wrote this. Do you have any idea roughly when in the course of FF14's history blind progging Extremes started to be something that "wouldn't be fun or productive" as opposed to "something that's totally doable"(in reference to Shiva Extreme)?

I want to say the change is Shadowbringers? Endwalker and Dawntrail Ex fights definitely want you to have pairs and light parties at minimum with some also requiring clock spots. I'm not entirely sure about Shadowbringers Extremes because I've never done those synced.

Every "nowadays" extreme or savage content requires at least watching a guide first and assign roles and pairs to deal with shared mechanics. Like Healer 1, Healer 2, Ranged 1, Ranged 2, etc. Also markers are needed for those trials and ofc knowledge of what those marks mean and which one affects you.

This is an MMO, communication is the key for every non casual content.

This kind of Ex Trials started with Stormblood. Before, trials were way simpler or required way less communication (I can remember assigning teams and sides for Thordan and Sefiroth but).

The Only EX trials you can go in blind and expect sucess are the ARR trials and a few of Haevensward.

If you want to go in blind and not communicate a strategy, you will not clear and your party will disband quickly.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

From what I've gathered, at present Extremes generally require some manner of communication and/or agreed upon strategy so that specific people don't overlap certain duties. For example, you need to know in advance that person A and B are going to stand at location X during mechanic M, because it's unlikely that people would organically distribute themselves as needed in real time. This is in contrast to normal/casual difficulty content where you don't need to ever communicate a specific strategy or divide up responsibilities, and instead can just iteratively play in absolute silence to organically get that win.

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That's just how standard play goes on the JP servers (plus Materia) using standard waymarks and macros, so it's going to be how the devs play too.

For the trials I've done at least, once the fight is learned there's no further conversation needed beyond "D4" at the start of the fight and then you go to the designated position for the D4 role during each mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That's just how standard play goes on the JP servers (plus Materia) using standard waymarks and macros, so it's going to be how the devs play too.

For the trials I've done at least, once the fight is learned there's no further conversation needed beyond "D4" at the start of the fight and then you go to the designated position for the D4 role during each mechanic.

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Not just JP, EU also uses waymarks and macros.