The removal of Viper positionals would have been preferred over removing Noxious Gnas

Basically title. I was in the camp that I wasn't going to be happy that Viper was going to be changed so soon after release, but I figured it was most likely going to affect Dreadwinder which I feel like I could get over it pretty easily.

The removal of Noxious Gnash; however, is a change that I feel was made prematurely.

I was honestly expecting to review the patch notes and to see that Noxious Gnash had its timer increased to 60s to help with the burst window and to have Dreadwinder positionals removed. I feel like this was the most obvious change and likely to be the change best received by a majority of the playerbase.

The developers stated that the player feedback on positionals is what caused them to forgo the changes they were planning. I feel like them not mentioning Noxious Gnash was on the chopping block as well prevented player feedback from getting to them since it seems most people are not okay with this change either.

I kind of agree, you could mostly ignore them anyway with true north, which you'll still be doing but now it doesn't affect anything at all. It's such a knee jerk reaction that they should have just increased the debuff by 5-10s as a bandaid and thought it out more before hammering in a decision. The problem with these knee jerk reactions is that it usually takes these slow designers and expansion or two to change it back or do something new with it. But yeah, I'd have taken some positionals being removed over gutting out a big mechanic

I agree, I think Noxious Gnash is much more fun than positionals I would gladly exchange positionals for Noxious Gnash.

Are we slyly advocating for the removal of positionals now?

Yes, I'll trade removing positionals for the re-addition of Noxious Gnash.

[I like this new tactic ya'll. ;) ]

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Originally Posted by Crafoutis

Are we slyly advocating for the removal of positionals now?

Yes, I'll trade removing positionals for the re-addition of Noxious Gnash.

[I like this new tactic ya'll. ;) ]

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tbh I would rather keep both of them. But I've come to terms that it's always just going to be one or the other so I would rather pick the one that gives the job a more unique gameplay style than just flank and rear attacks

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Originally Posted by Rychu

tbh I would rather keep both of them. But I've come to terms that it's always just going to be one or the other so I would rather pick the one that gives the job a more unique gameplay style than just flank and rear attacks

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Wellllllll, I wouldn't say Noxious Gnash is a 'unique gameplay style', given that「 Shadow of Death / Whorl of Death 」exists for Reaper, which applies「 Death's Design 」a debuff which reads "increasing damage you deal target by 10%"

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Originally Posted by Crafoutis

Wellllllll, I wouldn't say Noxious Gnash is a 'unique gameplay style', given that「 Shadow of Death / Whorl of Death 」exists for Reaper, which applies「 Death's Design 」a debuff which reads "increasing damage you deal target by 10%"

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True. However, I feel like thats a glass half empty look at it. While the text is virtually the same, the usage in the rotation feels different. Reaper is essentially just a dot that you press and feels completely separated from the usual 1-2-3 rotation. Viper felt like it engaged with the 1-2-3 combo way smoother imo.

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Originally Posted by Rychu

True. However, I feel like thats a glass half empty look at it. While the text is virtually the same, the usage in the rotation feels different. Reaper is essentially just a dot that you press and feels completely separated from the usual 1-2-3 rotation. Viper felt like it engaged with the 1-2-3 combo way smoother imo.

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I agree somewhat, but at the end of the day, it was just Death’s design attached to a combo that you could interrupt anyway. So truthfully, you could use a GCD to apply it, go into a better combo and finish that combo when all said and done.

The only difference between the two was that NG was a part of a combo and Reaper’s you could insert reaper’s whenever. Reaper’s even had a longer debuff timer on it. Which I find odd.

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Originally Posted by Crafoutis

WAR - perfect since the introduction of Raw Intuition in 2015.

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Raw intuition:
"Parries all physical attacks taken from the front. All attacks taken from the flank or rear will result in critical damage."
Grants Wrath when used with Defiance or Abandon when used with Deliverance.

That raw intuition?

I agree, the removal of GN does nothing to reduce busyness of the job.

so.. VPR lost their DoT right?.. ironic.. and ppl wanna remove positionals instead what I can see why they wanna do that^^

but yeah they should just remove positionals in general then, they could then also remove True North.. I mean every melee's combos have another function besides the positionals anyway. Hell! NIN's Trick Attack isn't a Positional anymore! (I still use True North before Trick Attack due to deep rooted Muscle Memory, same reason why I have True North at the place where I had Kaiten, because having a dead button on a Controller is way worse than on a Keyboard)

If players are just using the ingame feedback and not leaving their suggestions or complaints on the forums much-- might just need to spam the "leave feedback" ingame suggestion to get it back and buff it with longer duration instead of removing it. I mean the central concept of viper, from a lore perspective, is that it uses uses quickness and a venomous "bite" to weaken a more physically imposing enemy, and then finishes it off. Granted, that's not really how it plays, because Yoshida and team don't believe in debuffs or DOTs as a playstyle, but still, without that ability, there's not even a nod to the lore. They wanted to reduce "business" so they made a change that doesn't change the rotation, button order, or end result. I'm starting to think that Yoshida and the devs dont understand what "busy" means lol.

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

yeah they should just remove positionals in general then, they could then also remove True North.

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This is kind of the crux of the issue with positionals right here. True North makes them irrelevant. I don't even think about them for *Vice*winder. If positionals are removed, you also get to remove that redundancy from the bar.

It's just like Kaiten.. if you always use that buff in the same place, on the same ability, just add the buff to the ability, tighten up the rotation and keep the redundancy off the hotbar.

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Originally Posted by Korbei

This is kind of the crux of the issue with positionals right here. True North makes them irrelevant. I don't even think about them for *Vice*winder. If positionals are removed, you also get to remove that redundancy from the bar.

It's just like Kaiten.. if you always use that buff in the same place, on the same ability, just add the buff to the ability, tighten up the rotation and keep the redundancy off the hotbar.

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Bingo! This is it right here on why removing positionals is a good idea!

I think you mean "This is why charges and a short cd on True North is a bad idea!"

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

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You don't have VPR unlocked, but yet you went out of your way to force bump this on to the main page. I think the fact that caster players are actively going out of their way to make harmful suggestions to a job that they don't play and that has already been damaged by their input is a serious problem. We didn't ask for either to change.

The way I see this escalating is that you will see more and more people trying to sabotage other players' job designs to get ahead. SE should start actively screening feedback based off of who actually plays the jobs in question.

Positionals are out dated. They've been nerfed to the point they may as well not exist and I'm not sure of any other competing game that utilizes them. More importantly, I've never heard a player say "I really enjoy positionals".

Remove them from all melee, use the time spent on tuning them to replace them with something more engaging. Dev time is a finite resource, in my opinion stop using it here.

I'd argue absolutely nothing needed to be changed about Viper, neither Noxious Gash or its positionals.

I wish they'd stop removing elements from the battle system and I wish people would stop begging for them to dumb everything down further.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

You don't have VPR unlocked, but yet you went out of your way to force bump this on to the main page. I think the fact that caster players are actively going out of their way to make harmful suggestions to a job that they don't play and that has already been damaged by their input is a serious problem. We didn't ask for either to change.

The way I see this escalating is that you will see more and more people trying to sabotage other players' job designs to get ahead. SE should start actively screening feedback based off of who actually plays the jobs in question.

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LOL Smooth move on assuming stuff of other people.

The funniest part of this entire situation is the dot is the one thing no one expected to get changed. I don't think anyone even brought it up, people only talked about being worried the positionals or the speed of the job would get changed.
The dot was so easy to maintain everyone forgot to even think it could of been on the cutting board.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

You don't have VPR unlocked, but yet you went out of your way to force bump this on to the main page. I think the fact that caster players are actively going out of their way to make harmful suggestions to a job that they don't play and that has already been damaged by their input is a serious problem. We didn't ask for either to change.

The way I see this escalating is that you will see more and more people trying to sabotage other players' job designs to get ahead. SE should start actively screening feedback based off of who actually plays the jobs in question.

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Are these caster players actively sabotaging your job in the room with us right now?

I like positionals, and I'd like them to stay, but if I knew there was going to be an ultimatum I would have chosen to get rid of them instead of Noxious Gnash. I'll take the removal of positionals over the removal of 50% of the basic combo branches.

As a caster I was happily flexing into Viper before this change and definitely won't be afterwards, it's like taking away Dualcast from RDM because "you just always used a long cast after a short cast, it wasn't hard"

No. That's dumb.