How games can have less scripted encounters

I have been playing games since I know games exist
I would like to share How FFXIV can have less scripted fights:

1- add variants that can be manipulated
2- encounters should have decision making based on the current situation
3- rage mechanic is always scripted but with a twist.. it can manipulate variants like boss attack speed been increase, boss move in unpredicted way.. boss can change his mode between being defensive or offensive based on situation.
4- taking advantage of some jobs skills to trigger more unpredictable boss behavior.

These things are not a new thing.. it is a lack part that I feel from shadowbringers that could come back in a modern more fun more engaging way

The most obvious reason why FF14's fights feels stiff compared to WoW's is that the boss always returns to the middle of the room to stand there and cast. You don't get WoW esque fights where the tank ia dragging the boss around the room as the boss hurls lava and the room slowly fills up with lava until there is little space to stand.

Doesn't matter how long you've been playing games it doesn't make you an authority on anything related to game design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hydralus

Doesn't matter how long you've been playing games it doesn't make you an authority on anything related to game design.

---

It doesn't take rocket science to know that doing the exact same thing with little to no variance is going to get boring after a while.

I also consider it one of the biggest flaws with XIV's design in general and I inherently find random mass AoE spam mechanics like the second Archadion boss' "big" mechanic more entertaining then the "stand here to not die" puzzle mechanics harder content is a fan of.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

It doesn't take rocket science to know that doing the exact same thing with little to no variance is going to get boring after a while.

I also consider it one of the biggest flaws with XIV's design in general.

---

Precisely the reason why we'd be terrible judges on how to 'fix' this issue. Seeing it on some surface-level "we want more variety in fights" like no duh. Thanks for the input. I'll definitely subscribe to your news letter where next week we learn that if you add variance to a fight, it won't be so scripted.

People have given feedback several times and it falls on deaf ears. Keep dreaming I have been for 10yrs now and it's gotten worse. Accept it or move on, it's not hard to path an AI to use a random set of skills at random times but they will never do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal

The most obvious reason why FF14's fights feels stiff compared to WoW's is that the boss always returns to the middle of the room to stand there and cast. You don't get WoW esque fights where the tank ia dragging the boss around the room as the boss hurls lava and the room slowly fills up with lava until there is little space to stand.

---

Yeah i'd say this too. wow's fights are just as scripted as ff14's otherwise

One thing they could do to reduce the fights being as scripted as they are is randomizing the order of attacks somewhat. The boss usually does all their attacks in a completely set pattern, usually only thing randomized is if an attack has variations it will basically flip a coin on which to do.

One of the best examples I can currently give on normal difficulty content is Thaleia's last boss... The fight will always do the same attacks, in the same exact order every time you go through the fight. Once it's finished one loop of attacks, the attack order does get somewhat randomized, with certain attacks still paired together into a single mechanic but you actually have to react to the boss as it's not just doing everything in a predetermined order.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tunda

These things are not a new thing.. it is a lack part that I feel from shadowbringers that could come back in a modern more fun more engaging way

---

When were *any* of these things in Shadowbringers?

The situation is getting outta control when they revamped all the old content to promote Trust system--by literally removing *all* mechanics that their scripted bots can't handle. Now every instance is pull stuff——boss(stack spread stack)——pull more stuff, repeat.
Yeah the Trust mode is helpful but do they really need to destroy the already limited "fun" plays they designed?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Inputnamehere

The situation is getting outta control when they revamped all the old content to promote Trust system--by literally removing *all* mechanics that their scripted bots can't handle. Now every instance is pull stuff——boss(stack spread stack)——pull more stuff, repeat.
Yeah the Trust mode is helpful but do they really need to destroy the already limited "fun" plays they designed?

---

it is easy to program a trust system to act like this:

if boss do x: do y

just a simple thinking and reaction time based fights that what we need

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tunda

1- add variants that can be manipulated

---

ngl i would like this -- up until i remember than one true way would emerge, and if you don't use that single outcome youre seen as total effin idiot

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tunda

2- encounters should have decision making based on the current situation

---

dont they already? not all the players are bots. yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tunda

3- rage mechanic is always scripted but with a twist.. it can manipulate variants like boss attack speed been increase, boss move in unpredicted way.. boss can change his mode between being defensive or offensive based on situation.

---

one single highly pursied variaton would rule here too. more mods and pc player preference to make it happen as oftn as possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tunda

4- taking advantage of some jobs skills to trigger more unpredictable boss behavior.

---

job a's trigger sux: job a ostracised out of pf and most statics
job b's trigger is "right one": most everyone wont enter the raid with job b

not hating your ideas, i upvoted you and i would kinda like the world where stuff like above was possible and enjoyable.
i am just very very sure ff14 is not that game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal

The most obvious reason why FF14's fights feels stiff compared to WoW's is that the boss always returns to the middle of the room to stand there and cast. You don't get WoW esque fights where the tank ia dragging the boss around the room as the boss hurls lava and the room slowly fills up with lava until there is little space to stand.

---

You're making miss Sohm Al Hard's Lava Scorpion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Inputnamehere

The situation is getting outta control when they revamped all the old content to promote Trust system--by literally removing *all* mechanics that their scripted bots can't handle. Now every instance is pull stuff——boss(stack spread stack)——pull more stuff, repeat.
Yeah the Trust mode is helpful but do they really need to destroy the already limited "fun" plays they designed?

---

I hear this complaint keenly, I feel the same way about how they've largely gone about reworking duties to fit Duty Support. Remembering especially that their goal was to finish redesigning through StB in EW, which they achieved.

But there's some hope, they put in a mechanic like the Trouble Bubbles in 95 dungeon's first boss; the trusts there follow a scripted movement pattern but since the player isn't beholden to it it can mess up their perfect play and cause them to get pelted by bubbles. Their solution to this was to make the NPCs largely immune to the damage (and vuln) from failing that mechanic, so they're at least willing to cheat a little bit for the NPCs to include something that wouldn't have been done between ShB and EW.

Doesn't exactly mean we'll see a return of e.g. interacting with objects, unusual enmity rules, avoiding certain targets, positioning enemies or using stuns and interrupts though.

Lava Scorpion's a great fight. Even has considerable tank damage. It barely lives long enough due ilvl, potency creep and direct hit, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Inputnamehere

The situation is getting outta control when they revamped all the old content to promote Trust system--by literally removing *all* mechanics that their scripted bots can't handle. Now every instance is pull stuff——boss(stack spread stack)——pull more stuff, repeat.
Yeah the Trust mode is helpful but do they really need to destroy the already limited "fun" plays they designed?

---

Technically, they made all the old content harder, but more predictable. Because if you play the old content with trusts (or squads) it will take longer to do than with a group of BiS geared players. That said, what they in effect did was make two versions of every dungeon. There is the "play with other players" version which is easier, and the "play with NPC's" which is harder because the NPC script runs in lock step with the fight.


I'll always be an advocate to not let RNG decide game mechanics, only values. If the game does the equivalent of a d20 roll, and keeps rolling 1's, then it should STILL be doing the mechanic , just at a weak (Eg miss) value. Where as if it rolls a crit three times, then yes, there is a good possibility of wiping to that mechanic if the healer doesn't immediately heal right after each hit.

What you don't want is the boss script to look like this:

Code:

---

BossLoopNoRNG()
{
if(myHP = 100%){ RollForFunction(5)}
if(myHP < 100% && myHP >50%){ RollForFunction(4)}
if(myHP < 50% && myHP >25%){ RollForFunction(3)}
if(myHP < 25% && myHP >0%){ RollForFunction(2)}
if(PartyHasNoHealers){RollForFunction(1)}
}

BossLoopIsRNG()
{
if(myHP = 100%){ RollForFunction(5)}
RollForFunction(Math.Random(5)* (5 - 2) + 2)
if(PartyHasNoHealers){RollForFunction(1)}
}


RollForFunction(n)
{
switch(n)
5:
DoAOE()
4:
DoTankBuster()
3:
DoKnockback()
2:
DoBleed()
break
1:
DoEnrage()
default:
AutoAttack()

return()
}

---

In English, "BossLoopIsRNG" is basically picking a number between 2 and 5 after the initial opening AOE. Which is Bleed, Knockback, Tankbuster. And it's just picking one of those as the START of the loop. The switch statement automatically continues to the next step and then drops out before the Enrage.

This would be fine, except that it's only skipping a step at random, rather than shuffling the deck when it gets to the end.

Realistically, you want the entire phase to go in order, but you want the "deck shuffled". so that you see ALL the steps, and it repeats in the same order until it gets to the next phase. If you fail, and restart the fight, it will re-shuffle the deck again.

But it doesn't "pick steps" to do at random like the code above, as all it does is make it hard to learn.

If a boss has four phases, then you should expect the same pattern until the end of the phase.

But again, as I've said, you do not want "just random" for boss fights, because that instead makes the fight undeterministic. You can't "do the fight correctly" at all, you can only brute force your way through it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal

The most obvious reason why FF14's fights feels stiff compared to WoW's is that the boss always returns to the middle of the room to stand there and cast. You don't get WoW esque fights where the tank ia dragging the boss around the room as the boss hurls lava and the room slowly fills up with lava until there is little space to stand.

---

We do have a similar mechanic to the latter where portions of the arena get destroyed to reduce the room the party has to use.

But I agree with you in general. We've always got a very flat circle or square to work with (barring mid fight changes). There is extremely little variety in how encounter spaces are designed (E12 is the only one that comes to mind immediately) and the environments tend to get stale in appearance. Do we really need to have almost every fight on a dance floor?

There are pros and cons for both styles of raid design but ironically for a game that was so bad when it came to story telling, WoW did a much better job of creating immersion with its raid environments. Compare any of the raids in FFXIV with something like Siege of Orgrimmar. As good or bad as individual encounters might be, they don't add up to the feeling created by having to force your way through a heavily fortified and defended city. It's just a shame that WoW didn't add in shortcuts direct to boss room to use after wipes (or did they finally after Legion).

We have to get these things to implement randomeness to fights:

1- 2 min window should be scripted
2- shuffle mechanic based on specific criteria
3- moment when boss move to high dps member and focus on them doing avoidable mechanic and tank have the ability to do mini game to knockout boss

That will make tank like a real savior of the team not just a hitting bag

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tunda

We have to get these things to implement randomeness to fights:

1- 2 min window should be scripted
2- shuffle mechanic based on specific criteria
3- moment when boss move to high dps member and focus on them doing avoidable mechanic and tank have the ability to do mini game to knockout boss

That will make tank like a real savior of the team not just a hitting bag

---

1. Why? You're trying to get rid of it, remember?
2. Just a matter of time till players figure out these "Criteria" and tweak the fight by setting up those "Criteria", this is called seed-manipulation in most speedruns because they know the exact sequence that's going to happen
3. You mean like the Susano fight? What's the point, this is just another scripted phase then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NekoNova

1. Why? You're trying to get rid of it, remember?
2. Just a matter of time till players figure out these "Criteria" and tweak the fight by setting up those "Criteria", this is called seed-manipulation in most speedruns because they know the exact sequence that's going to happen
3. You mean like the Susano fight? What's the point, this is just another scripted phase then.

---

Yes thank you.. understanding the boss is a skill that should be learned.. players should be able to understand those criteria after many many many fights.. let people start to analyze fights and act upon it not all bosses should have same mindset or way to fight

Rage mechanic shouldn't be scripted

As I said unpredicted movement and attacks that can be randomize from set of attacks that is assigned to boss

Scripted but randomized and have some variants that can be randomized like who is boss targeting and why based on boss hp or boss set up for next mechanic

once again the casual wants to give ideas to make gameplay better, kind of gameplay that they will never play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tunda

Yes thank you.. understanding the boss is a skill that should be learned.. players should be able to understand those criteria after many many many fights.. let people start to analyze fights and act upon it not all bosses should have same mindset or way to fight

Rage mechanic shouldn't be scripted

As I said unpredicted movement and attacks that can be randomize from set of attacks that is assigned to boss

Scripted but randomized and have some variants that can be randomized like who is boss targeting and why based on boss hp or boss set up for next mechanic

---

Which leads to the problem that was described earlier:

Either people will simply bruteforce it, or they will find a very specific, optimal setup that negates the randomness, forcing everyone to follow that meta or not be invited to groups.
It will not make the fights more fun, it will simply alienate a large part of the player base and grant access to a select few.
Not a sane decision for a company to make.

If they weren't as strictly scripted as they are, you might have to actually react to what the boss is casting or doing. Can't have that, it's too complicated for the playerbase that thinks mashing one button is a sufficient gameplay loop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

If they weren't as strictly scripted as they are, you might have to actually react to what the boss is casting or doing. Can't have that, it's too complicated for the playerbase that thinks mashing one button is a sufficient gameplay loop.

---

Or people with higher latency
Or disabilities
Or older people that simply can't react fast enough


God forbid they play the game as well.

As a long time wow-player, let me tell you all:

As long as this games server ticks are a thing, you dont want to have more flexible encounter mechanics.
It would be hell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NekoNova

Or people with higher latency
Or disabilities
Or older people that simply can't react fast enough


God forbid they play the game as well.

---

That is why failing mechanics is generally not punishable on the first miss - You get a few 'passes' until those result in instant defeats.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arrius

That is why failing mechanics is generally not punishable on the first miss - You get a few 'passes' until those result in instant defeats.

---

Currently it's around 2 or 3 passes until you die

I don't mind if it is 5 or 6 if it was random

We just need to have a mind to think not only to remember what is the current phase

We are not asking for dark souls like reaction time or iframes but we ask for something fresh

If they game has issues then fix it, you have enough money from endwalker and you spend it on lighting engine.. gameplay is as important as graphics

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Isseki

As a long time wow-player, let me tell you all:

As long as this games server ticks are a thing, you dont want to have more flexible encounter mechanics.
It would be hell.

---

The kind of flexibility I'd want is for that instead of just doing the same series of attacks in the same exact order, they shuffle the order they use those attacks in.
To use current fights, Acradion M3, I do believe he uses something like Raidwide, Tankbuster, Lariat, Mist, the Knockback Towers, Spin, Fuses, Lariat before his drink... Now For that first phase, he should do all those attacks, but it should use RNG to decide what order he uses them in stead of just having a completely set unchanging order.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tunda

Currently it's around 2 or 3 passes until you die

I don't mind if it is 5 or 6 if it was random

We just need to have a mind to think not only to remember what is the current phase

We are not asking for dark souls like reaction time or iframes but we ask for something fresh

If they game has issues then fix it, you have enough money from endwalker and you spend it on lighting engine.. gameplay is as important as graphics

---

The Main Story is as balanced as it is, and coming over rather forgiving. Each MSQ Dungeon/Raid (aside the last) can be done with Trust NPC's.

For anything else, there are raids and alliance raids. Which are completely optional, but come with a higher difficulty and coordination requirement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tunda

I have been playing games since I know games exist
I would like to share How FFXIV can have less scripted fights:

1- add variants that can be manipulated
2- encounters should have decision making based on the current situation
3- rage mechanic is always scripted but with a twist.. it can manipulate variants like boss attack speed been increase, boss move in unpredicted way.. boss can change his mode between being defensive or offensive based on situation.
4- taking advantage of some jobs skills to trigger more unpredictable boss behavior.

These things are not a new thing.. it is a lack part that I feel from shadowbringers that could come back in a modern more fun more engaging way

---

Adding variants could go a LONG way, especially things like 'dpsbusters' or something that the healers need to pay attention to. Heck, the fact that healers can literally spreadsheet their whole healing plan says volumes about how stiff their design is. And what's even interesting about following a spreadsheet instead of improvising and thinking on the go?

I'm of the opinion that healer dpsing kits should remain with the level of complexity they have today (although I strongly disagree with a filler nuke+dot copy paste for everyone), but they need to look more to the act of healing, and by that I don't mean "give more hard hits to heal", but instead they should allow players to express their healing skills by putting their brains to work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

The kind of flexibility I'd want is for that instead of just doing the same series of attacks in the same exact order, they shuffle the order they use those attacks in.
To use current fights, Acradion M3, I do believe he uses something like Raidwide, Tankbuster, Lariat, Mist, the Knockback Towers, Spin, Fuses, Lariat before his drink... Now For that first phase, he should do all those attacks, but it should use RNG to decide what order he uses them in stead of just having a completely set unchanging order.

---

There are other considerations to make. If you have scripted encounters, you can make things come off quicker or more easily combo mechanics together, whereas if they are random, you need to allow more time for the player to parse and react to what is going on.

Then there are things like casters movement capabilities. It will be harder for them to plan them all out and if they get unlucky and 2 movement heavy mechanics happen back to back, they might be forced to drop casting altogether to complete the mechanic.

This isn't to say they couldn't do it, but if they put restrictions on how often a mechanic can go off due to said factors, it can lead to fights that get more scripted as you go along as there are less places they can go. Of course, you could just ignore that and say casters just have to deal with it, but then you either potentially don't bring casters (except SMN) or you are just waiting for the run where the RNG lines up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mikey_R

There are other considerations to make. If you have scripted encounters, you can make things come off quicker or more easily combo mechanics together, whereas if they are random, you need to allow more time for the player to parse and react to what is going on.

Then there are things like casters movement capabilities. It will be harder for them to plan them all out and if they get unlucky and 2 movement heavy mechanics happen back to back, they might be forced to drop casting altogether to complete the mechanic.

---

This also comes down to class and fight design. Casters have movement tools. Even BLM has enough to handle a few unexpected mechanics. If FF shuffled mechanics to be truly random in existing content that would strain casters, but we could also step away from complex puzzle like mechanics or space them out.

I completely agree with you that the simple route of making everything a dice roll has problems, but we don't limit ourselves to only doing that I think it opens up a lot more possibilities. Class abilities should probably be tweaked in response too and move away from totally rigid rotations. They wouldn't have to be completely free form but they would need some amount of flexibility built in. I'm in favor of that even if content stays the same.

Quote:

---

This isn't to say they couldn't do it, but if they put restrictions on how often a mechanic can go off due to said factors, it can lead to fights that get more scripted as you go along as there are less places they can go. Of course, you could just ignore that and say casters just have to deal with it, but then you either potentially don't bring casters (except SMN) or you are just waiting for the run where the RNG lines up.

---

Major mechanics absolutely would need some kind of restriction. In a purely random setting you could encounter something like an infinite loop of M2 hearts. Pure randomization might be better used on smaller and less complex mechanics like stacks, raidwides, TB's while major mechanics are space out and perhaps just swapped in order.

If SE were to seriously consider revamping fights it would probably be best to limit it to a dedicated zone at first like Eureka or Bozja. That would let the devs and players experiment while also avoiding the need to revamp old content or disrupt current content grinding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hydralus

Precisely the reason why we'd be terrible judges on how to 'fix' this issue. Seeing it on some surface-level "we want more variety in fights" like no duh. Thanks for the input. I'll definitely subscribe to your news letter where next week we learn that if you add variance to a fight, it won't be so scripted.

---

Sir, this is a feedback forum.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PyurBlue

This also comes down to class and fight design. Casters have movement tools. Even BLM has enough to handle a few unexpected mechanics. If FF shuffled mechanics to be truly random in existing content that would strain casters, but we could also step away from complex puzzle like mechanics or space them out.

I completely agree with you that the simple route of making everything a dice roll has problems, but we don't limit ourselves to only doing that I think it opens up a lot more possibilities. Class abilities should probably be tweaked in response too and move away from totally rigid rotations. They wouldn't have to be completely free form but they would need some amount of flexibility built in. I'm in favor of that even if content stays the same.


Major mechanics absolutely would need some kind of restriction. In a purely random setting you could encounter something like an infinite loop of M2 hearts. Pure randomization might be better used on smaller and less complex mechanics like stacks, raidwides, TB's while major mechanics are space out and perhaps just swapped in order.

If SE were to seriously consider revamping fights it would probably be best to limit it to a dedicated zone at first like Eureka or Bozja. That would let the devs and players experiment while also avoiding the need to revamp old content or disrupt current content grinding.

---

burst phases should be scripted.. we want 50% of the fights have some kind of shuffle or randomness

I am curios to see what they will do in bozja content.. I still remember that raid and how hard and fun it was, but they require to add more variant..

what do I mean by variant: Not all runs will be the same there is always a differences.. mechanic, stats, job comb, just anything that is easily noticeable could make a difference