PVP Monk: Earth's Reply

PVP has been really fun for me! I really enjoyed the zerg fest of the Frontlines and the idea of being part of something bigger.

One thing I would like to suggest is a change to Monk's Riddle of Earth. Currently, there is a window of 8 seconds to use Earth's Reply. As a new PVP enjoyer, I would typically forget that this thing exist and would fail to press Earth's Reply within the window. Failing to use Earth's Reply would result in zero benefits from the ability.

In comparison to DRG's Horrid Roar (an ability that does instant damage and 50% damage reduc), the MNK's equivalent is not very good (see sidenote).

Suggestion: If possible, I would suggest automatically proccing Earth's Reply at the end of the duration to bridge the skill gap between skilled and newer Monk PVP players. This can be balanced by having a shorter duration (ie., from 8 to 5 seconds) or lower heal/damage potency.

(Side note: although, I appreciate that MNK's Thunderclap ability has a protection bubble when used against an enemy target - I don't believe Thunderclap is equivalent to Horrid Roar, nor DRG's far more superior ability Elusive Jump which literally takes you out of the engagement without needing a friendly target to escape).

I agree Earth's Reply should auto proc at the end of the 8 seconds if not pressed. I don't think that warrants nerf'ing the skill though.

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Originally Posted by Roguewaves

I agree Earth's Reply should auto proc at the end of the 8 seconds if not pressed. I don't think that warrants nerf'ing the skill though.

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That's true. Just being mindful of balancing that's all.

Another alternative suggestion to Earth Reply mechanic is creating a DMG and heal potency cap to Earth's Reply, so the ability would automatically proc upon reaching the cap.

In this scenario, there would be three ways to activate Earth's Reply: 1) upon player input; 2) at full duration; 3) upon reaching damage/heal cap of the ability. Which ever comes first.

Holy crumbles a good pvp thread I agrees with this post (no sarcasm)

What if you get stunned and RoF ends? Does it autoproc too in your scenario?

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Originally Posted by Valence

What if you get stunned and RoF ends? Does it autoproc too in your scenario?

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Thanks for your question. Yes, in this case - it would autoproc even if you're stunned. The only time it would not autoproc is if the MNK player died (which would be considered dispelled).

I'm not too sure I'd agree with it auto proccing, but especially I don't know about it automatically firing off when they're stunned or otherwise disabled.

While I understand the desire to make PvP more approachable in general for newer players, I think Riddle of Earth is incredibly powerful and one of the major ways to counter-play against it is the fact that you can crowd control a MNK that's being greedy with its duration while focused. I compare it more closely to people using crowd control on a DRK whose Living Dead is ending, or to prevent a SAM from capitalizing on Chiten procs than Horrid Roar.

Like those jobs, the MNK can now make use of the new Purify buff to avoid that scenario if it's warranted (other than vs WHM or DNC crowd control, but both of those are kind of central to those jobs and should be tracked).

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Originally Posted by SKDLaeys

Thanks for your question. Yes, in this case - it would autoproc even if you're stunned. The only time it would not autoproc is if the MNK player died (which would be considered dispelled).

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Then: what the post just above me said.

Instead let MNK to keep Phantom Rush and not lose it because you are out of range or unable to engage/feed. Its already hard to do anything as a MNK because you get swarmed usually by DRKs.

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Originally Posted by Post

I'm not too sure I'd agree with it auto proccing, but especially I don't know about it automatically firing off when they're stunned or otherwise disabled.

While I understand the desire to make PvP more approachable in general for newer players, I think Riddle of Earth is incredibly powerful and one of the major ways to counter-play against it is the fact that you can crowd control a MNK that's being greedy with its duration while focused. I compare it more closely to people using crowd control on a DRK whose Living Dead is ending, or to prevent a SAM from capitalizing on Chiten procs than Horrid Roar.

Like those jobs, the MNK can now make use of the new Purify buff to avoid that scenario if it's warranted (other than vs WHM or DNC crowd control, but both of those are kind of central to those jobs and should be tracked).

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Thanks for your message. I appreciate your thoughtful response.

ROE is super powerful, I agree. Currently, ROE:

Deals physical damage to all nearby enemies within a 5Y radius and restores your HP.
Damage Potency: 2,000 plus 25% of compiled damage
Cure Potency: 4,000 plus 50% of compiled damage
Can only be executed while under the effect of Earth Resonance.

If we incorporate auto-proc without any form of balance change, an unfair scenario can occur. For example: a MNK (with a pocket healer), could walk in the middle of a Frontline engagement, act as a sponge through ROE, then deal a ton of damage with Earth's Reply at the end of the 8 second. So yes, in this case, ROE would be very imbalanced.

As mentioned in my second post, a ROE rework could incorporate a cap on damage and cure potency to account for an autoproc mechanic. Similar to how SCH's Excog work, Excog's heal would auto-proc upon reaching a specific condition (in this case, when the target HP reaches 50%). DRK's Blackest Night has a similar mechanic where the Dark Arts resource is accrued upon reaching a specific condition, ie., once the bubble "pops".

A ROE rework can introduce a similar mechanic to Earth's Reply, where the ability auto procs upon reaching specific conditions: 1) once ROE absorbed the max damage it's allowed to absorb, 2) or once the duration is finished, 3) or upon player input. The damage/cure potency of Earth's Reply can be adjusted to whatever make sense (ie., 4000DMG if the ability fully absorbs the max damage, or proportion of DMG absorbed between min-max DMG or 2,000 DMG if no one hits the MNK throughout the entire duration). The duration can also be adjusted for balance. Whatever works.

The point is this: currently - Riddle of Earth only provides its intended benefit if it receives input from the player. However, skills like DRG's Horrid Roar and SAM's Chitten provides immediate benefit for the player - where as ROE do not. My intent is to offer an idea of a redesigned ROE that aligns the ability closely with other jobs, while bridging the gaps between skilled and newer players.

I just don't like the idea of removing skill expression and depth of play and counter play on both of the MNK's and the opponents side of things. I don't think making things in line with each other is also healthy since it's what brought pve in the dire state it is right now. I'd hate to see pvp undergo the same process.

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

Instead let MNK to keep Phantom Rush and not lose it because you are out of range or unable to engage/feed. Its already hard to do anything as a MNK because you get swarmed usually by DRKs.

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It stays up for ages and to be honest the one thing MNK does best in FLs is 1) tanking with riddle by attracting enemy fire and 2) punish/delete people by punting them into your team and stunning/meteodriving them there. PR is just a nice bonus you get if you get to hit people in engagements enough until it's up, which isn't that hard to do. If you're mobile enough, go in, hit people, go out, go back in, hit more people with the next riddle up, then go out, etc, then PR will be up in no time.

Thanks for your message. I appreciate the idea that people would want to maintain status quo - and that's fine. To your point about job alignment, the alternative I am offering doesn't change the MNK playstyle - it merely makes ROE an ability that is more attractive to all players.

In agreement with your points - MNK's PVP gameplay revolves around the effective use of Thunderclap, Enlightenment and Six Sided Star. Phantom Rush isn't really central to the MNK PVP gameplay, and is exclusively effective in the game mode Shatter (where players must destroy PVE objectives). Otherwise - I use Meteodrive in all PVP cases (afterall, I just have to be in combat for 75s and the ability is up).

Regarding MNK, and how it stands out among other PVP job classes, effective MNK players use good positioning and their kit to punish greedy players. MNK can punt greedy players into friendly backlines for easy team kill; or provide peels for healers using SSS' stun. Meteodrive is also a really strong limit break - and is a more reliable DPS skill in PVP than Phantom Rush. It also immobilize players for 3 seconds and breaks Guard. I love it.

The rework I proposed still maintain the current sponge + punish element to ROE. I am not proposing we add a % damage reduction to ROE (similar to Chitten/Horrid Roar). There's a lot to love about MNK PVP, and I think a rework to ROE would not affect the MNK's overall gameplay.

Phantom Rush is central to MNK PVP in CC however. It just plays differently in FLs, but with enough BH you can still use PR in conjunction with Meteodrive to oneshot ranged squishies like you can by default in CC.

The problem I see is that your changes, while minimal in consequences in FLs because you just have better things to do than monitor a specific MNk's use of their RoE, are going to actually have a huge effect on the job's gameplay in CC especially, which is not a good thing at all in my eyes.

No matter what however those are the main points of contention that I have:

- Complete removal of skill expression for the MNK: the skill autotriggers on its own and you don't have to pay attention to time it, it's just fire and forget.
- Complete removal of counterplay skill expression for opponents: stunning or disabling the MNK at the right time to prevent them from using the skill effectively is now moot.
- While its healing being capped would potentially make up for the addition of mitigation to the skill, I still think that a a defensive that heals you AND mitigates is OP, period. No other job has something that good.
- Adding mitigation to already huge melee DRs in FLs would turn the job into literally a tank, but with crazy escape options, which all tanks lack. Melee DPS are already kings of survival due to their escape options (except SAM).
- Capping the damage counter to introduce a ceiling on healing and damage done by RoE is also sad in a way because one of the biggest fun you can have with the skill is trying to reach new heights with it...

I find a request to reduce the skill gap in PvP rather strange.

Leveraging your skill level to grant you an advantage over other players is literally what PvP is about. I don't really want to see skill gaps reduced in the name of making some jobs more accessible.

Not to mention that changing Riddle of Earth to automatically fire off would almost give MNK 2 lives in CC unless you cap the healing to the point of becoming useless.

Outside of 1-shot or atk up process before Midare, Sam’s Chiten is a pale shadow of its former glory. Horrid Roar and Riddle of Earth are equal in say a duel or in Crystal Conflict., with RoE coming out ahead for that 25% damage return. Both serve as nice damage nullifiers. Have to agree that it WOULD be nice if RoE automatically popped at the end of its duration as I’ve forgotten to use it a lot too. In combination with monk’s ‘excuse me, you dropped your face & buttcheeks’ lb, would just make mnk that much more the top melee.