The Dawntrail MSQ has writing issues, but it’s still a good expansion regardless.

While playing DT MSQ I had enjoyed everything, but once we started to learn what the issues of the Mamoolja were things began to feel rushed and glossed over.

MAMOOK:
I also think that Mamook abandoning the practice of having two headed children happened with too little resistance considering that these people had been so committed to the point of sacrificing thousands of babies through the generations.

Zoraal Ja:
Very little is stated about what his end goal was. Zoraal Ja was raised by Gulool Ja Ja and spent time with his siblings as a family, people who stand completely against this way of thinking, so how and why did he arrive to such a radical and diametrically opposed position to the rest of his family?

Sphene and the Endless:
I personally liked Sphene but it’s a bit disappointing that we as the WOL did not get to speak with her more considering her goals and motivations. Sphene’s story is about the grief that comes from losing those we love. After Endwalker the WOL has a PHD on existential anxiety and loss, yet we never did in a meaningful way? As the WOL we have saved the source, the first and helped kick start the recovery of the 13th. I was half expecting Sphene to just dump Zoraal Ja and ask us for help at any moment. I like her character a lot and wish I could have been more involved with her.

The Scions:
I know this is an unpopular opinion but some of the Scions should be retired from the spotlight and make space for newer characters. Thancred and Uriange have peeked regarding character development, there is nowhere else left to go with them writing wise. The Twins I also think have reached a development ceiling until Square finally decides to age them up. I think it is best to just let them go and focus on a new cast for now.

Krile and Erenville:
I loved both of them in MSQ but considering how connected they were to the plot of the Golden city it felt like they did not get enough development?

Gulool Ja and Otis:
Ok where did Gulool Ja come from? This is just never explained. As for Otis, he died protecting Sphene, someone that we saw in the previous quest cannot be killed in reality due to being an Endless.

Things in the MSQ feel like they happen simply because the writers wanted them to happen to reference various themes and motifs without properly building up to them.
To be fair, I have felt like this before in previous expansions. I personally dislike how in Endwalker the Garleans were dealt with as victims instead of a tyrannical empire whose Karma finally caught up to it and the Dragon Song War Ended a bit too cleanly in my opinion too. In Dawn Trail however, the poor pacing and lack of explanation in various key parts make this problem more pronounced, things just feel rushed and underdeveloped. Because of this the otherwise wonderful characters and world that they crafted suffer and it’s a real shame because I really like those parts of Dawn trail.

I'll just respond to this point by point to keep it concise.

Mamook: Yeah, that felt really rushed. Like yeah great there was a solution to their underlying problems, but it's super unrealisitic of them to just drop their entire way of life that they've sacrificed and suffered so much for at the drop of a hat. All because it turns out they never needed to do it in the first place. Also Zareel Ja doing a complete 180 after you completed his trial gave me whiplash. Bakool Ja Ja turning his attitude around felt more appropriate because you could kind of tell he was trying to live up to someone else's impossibly high standards early on.

Zoraal Ja: His motivations boiled down to "I am going to engulf the world in flames so people will appreciate water more". He wanted to crawl out of his father's shadow and prove himself "a miracle" so it would have made more sense if his motivation was "i want to spread peace to the entire world" and wanted to go about it the wrong way in a desperate act to outdo his old man.

Sphene: I would have appreciated more opportunities to talk with Sphene earnestly about the things we've seen and done to at least give her some hope that we could help her. They briefly allude to the fact that she is not a normal endless, and the scientists that made her programmed her to preserve the status quo at any cost, and she couldn't defy it. As it went, it felt like she didn't really like what she was doing but was determined to do it anyway. It would have felt better if it were made clear that she literally couldn't stop. The unlost world as whole made me feel rotten because i felt like i was ending a civilization by turning off the lights. The "only life force aether will do" bit to sustain the endless made little sense as well since they weren't keeping dead people alive so much as they were making AI based on their memories.

The Scions: I agree, having one or two of them around at a time is fine but it's fun to get to know new characters. It does feel like they're setting up Erenville as a regular traveling companion so that's pretty good.

Krile and Erenville: They were good. Krile felt like she had more going on than Erenville. I kind of wish we got to meet his mother before she got borged.

Gulool Ja and Otis: I was half expecting Gulool Ja to be some sort of clone or something, but nope, actually his son. No clue where he came from. Otis was explained as being a prototype for Sphene. He was not aware that he had been made into one of the first endless as well, his robot self only knew that he was shoved into a mechanical body, meanwhile his Endless self wasn't aware of the robot version.

Maybe they'll expand more on the things that felt rushed in the patches, but who knows

Whether it's good expansion will depend on the 7.1 PvP tweaks.

If they finally give some worthwhile stuff to grind ranked over to fill the patch down time then it's good expansion. Otherwise it's just business as usual.

I thought you are going to say that the combat design is good. New dungeons are pretty fun. But no, I absolutely disagree that the story is enjoyable or good overall.

The thing about Zoraal Ja thou is that his warmongering is stated to be the likely reason that inspired Gulool Ja Ja to do the rite of succession which starts the plot of Dawntrail. The reason Koana and Wuk lamat wish to be Dawn servant is because there is someone whom they deem “Not fit to rule” That being Zoraal Ja himself. Koana and Wuk Lamat always say they tried to understand him, but Zoraal Ja was not receptive their attempts. Although it seems like the people had placed great expectations upon him, he had about as many supporters as Koana did, so why did he need to go to such extremes to get what he wanted? Even Zenos, whose motivations are nonsensical at best, is better explained. I know what he is trying to do during the first half of the MSQ but he seems to abandon that and only wants power in the second half. My question is how did he get to that point? What happened in his past that caused him to believe what he believes? The best explanation about what drove him is given by the Wandering minstrel when you unlock the EX-version of his fight, which is just unacceptable to me.

As much as I like to meme in the 'Wuk Lamat Bad' thread I do think this expansion will probably end up being like Stormblood where people warm up to it after a while.

The quality of the Post Launch content will also determine this.

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Originally Posted by CastDeath

so how and why did he arrive to such a radical and diametrically opposed position to the rest of his family?

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I think we came to learn that his father was actually kinda bad at being a father. Great leader and all, but maybe he should have spent a little more time with his kids instead of fighting dudes with spears.

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Originally Posted by Maxilor

As much as I like to meme in the 'Wuk Lamat Bad' thread I do think this expansion will probably end up being like Stormblood where people warm up to it after a while.

The quality of the Post Launch content will also determine this.

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That reminds me what will the Patch Story be?
The Second half of the mains story kinda felt like a patch story already and at the end we dont really have anything else to do.
So will it be a stand alone story again or a extra long prolog into what ever 8.0 will be.

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Originally Posted by Ayalu

That reminds me what will the Patch Story be?
The Second half of the mains story kinda felt like a patch story already and at the end we dont really have anything else to do.
So will it be a stand alone story again or a extra long prolog into what ever 8.0 will be.

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It'll probably be learning more about the shard we just deleted or whatever.

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Originally Posted by Maxilor

As much as I like to meme in the 'Wuk Lamat Bad' thread I do think this expansion will probably end up being like Stormblood where people warm up to it after a while.

The quality of the Post Launch content will also determine this.

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If they deliver on what was said we were getting in the live letters on top of continuing the quality of dungeons we got I agree with you, I think it will be looked at as equivalent or better than Stormblood with regards to gameplay content at least.

The dungeons and trials (other than that scene near the end of the third one) are all good. The changes to fates are good. The zones are ok. The music is ok. If you remove the MSQ from the equation it is an easy 7-8 out of 10. Unfortunately to fairly evaluate it we have to consider the MSQ and that on it's own is a 1-10.

I'll just comment on some points:

Zoraal Ja: I think certain cut scenes are made to imply that he is under pressure since he is considered a sort of miracle as a child of a two-headed Mamool Ja. He is the leader of their military as well. When Bakool Ja Ja is talking about him not being around at the beginning of the contest, Koana comments that he is not around because he is protecting their people or something. Now why they need him to lead an army of such a peaceful nation and why that army has been fighting is not explained.

Sphene and the Endless: Many of your issues tie into others including the use of the Scions and ignoring character development. For example, how is the WoL a mentor when they do no mentoring especially in the instance you list? Some have said "you listen to her" and "you affirm her choices". That sounds like a nanny or a "yes man", not a mentor.

The Scions - I do like the scions and don't think there is nowhere else to go with them. The issue is more that they were more prominent the last 2 expansions, but previous to ShB they weren't there all the time and they didn't feel "forced" into content. If they want to do a sort of reset, then they should do the same as in ARR, HW, and StB where maybe we don't see some scions for an expansion. It really felt like they tried to find ways to fit them in rather than using them in their best spot. For issues involving Alexandria and Zorall Ja's invasion, Cid and Nero are what I thought of first. So basically why does it always have to be the Scions brought in when we have many characters we have called on outside of the scions.

The other issue with the scions is just changing how they would act which they did in at least 2 or 3 instances. I think this goes to your point of things happening just because the writers wanted them to. Urianger just walked away from people potentially being killed after spending 2 expansions lecturing other's on saving the lives of others? Alisaie who is always rushing into a fight holds back the WoL at one point? And Y'shtola is staring at a potential portal into another shard and seems to be kind of meh about it? If they aren't going to remain true to these characters then I agree that they need to be retired and characters that have the traits they desire should be created.

It's way too early in the lifecycle to be deciding whether it's a good or bad expansion.

3.0 was great but Heavensward almost killed the game.
4.0 was mid but Stormblood was arguably the best expansion we've ever had.

Based on what the devs have said about the content that will come during the patch cycle, it sounds like Dawntrail will be a very solid expansion. Time will tell.

If it's biggest selling point, which is the story, is a trash then I'm afraid that by association, the good things in this expac will be on the crossfire aswell. We cant really blame people for regretting buying the expac when the biggest thing about new expacs in FFXIV is the story. They really do have something going I admit. The story IDEAS are fun and exciting, but they FELL REALLY REALLY REALLY SHORT on the execution of those ideas. Everything is so shallow compared to how nuanced everything had been written in the past.

That being said, the good things in this expac FOR ME is:
-The zones
-The music except for Smile
-The dungeons are pretty
-The fights are more interesting in this expac

Too bad it's connected to such a lackluster and shoddily written story.

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Originally Posted by Gortys

I'll just comment on some points:

Zoraal Ja: I think certain cut scenes are made to imply that he is under pressure since he is considered a sort of miracle as a child of a two-headed Mamool Ja. He is the leader of their military as well. When Bakool Ja Ja is talking about him not being around at the beginning of the contest, Koana comments that he is not around because he is protecting their people or something. Now why they need him to lead an army of such a peaceful nation and why that army has been fighting is not explained.

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Even without an active war, the people would still need protection from bandits, wild beasts, and other normal problems. We also saw at least a few groups that resent Galool Ja Ja's rule, so keeping them in line is also important. As the old saying goes, the price of peace is eternal vigilance.

Subjective and all, but when an expansion makes me want to take a break only a week after its release... I cannot, for myself, consider it a good expansion.

Of course patches may bring some absolutely incredible, mind blowing content and story (though I expect those things to be good at most). But. The patches are when? By the time the appropriate patches will have released, I'll have paid their price through subscription. I do still consider patches to be part of an expansion (because what else would they be), but nonetheless a huge chunk of the expansion is what we get on the first day of its release. That's when we get the biggest story chunk. That's when we get the biggest dungeons chunk. That's when we get the major system changes (like the graphics update, new races, new classes, etc, etc). In that sense, I have seen a relatively large part of what this expansion has to offer.

I am excited for the raids, I am especially excited for the new field operations. But the latter especially isn't coming any time soon. I don't even want to try and count how long we'll have to wait. Bozja released like a year after the expansion...

So sure, maybe in a year or two, once I finally see the entirety of the expansion, I will maybe change my mind for the better. For now, like I said, I'm just bored and burned out because of the MSQ. Thankfully another MMO currently has some fun stuff to do in preparation for their end of August expansion release, so I can have some variety. And then maybe I'll be back in November for 7.1.

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Originally Posted by Maxilor

As much as I like to meme in the 'Wuk Lamat Bad' thread I do think this expansion will probably end up being like Stormblood where people warm up to it after a while.

The quality of the Post Launch content will also determine this.

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Stormblood didn't suffer from these same issues. Because the "Wuk" of that expansion was Lyse, who, honestly, was mostly harmless. We just hated her because she lost any character she had as Yda, and became a completely useless character. She didn't force herself into every single situation we were involved in. And we also had Hien on the other side, who was a fairly enjoyable guy to hang around with. The combat in SB was also miles above the combat in DT, because it hadn't yet become the soulless Job Design we have now. Like, don't get me wrong. I still hate Lyse, and that hasn't changed, but to claim SB needed "warmed up to" is a bit of a misleading way of looking at the problems of SB.

Otis was Otis' actual soul put into a mechanical body, while Sphene was an endless copy of the real Sphene's memories. Otis explains earlier that he would die if his body was destroyed.


The expansion wasn't terrible, the later half of the story was good, but the first half really sours the whole experience imo. Wuk Lamat being a massive Mary Sue with terrible voice acting definitely didn't help either. I think they can stand to learn a few things from this, and improve the writing going forward, seeing as the story is almost universally criticized for the same few things by both the English and Japanese player bases.


As long as they deliver good battle content though the story won't matter as much. I'm definitely liking what I see with these new dungeons and how they made them a bit more hectic and difficult. We'll have to see where things go. I'd like them to shake up the formula a little but I doubt that'll happen.

To respond:

MAMOOK
Yes.

Zoraal Ja
I think this would come down to his martial position, and more predominantly the fact he's essentially a 'miracle', which comes with a whole set of burdens on its own. I think maybe trying to prove worthy in his own way? I think this is what they were eluding to later in the story?

Sphene
Didn't like Sphene very much. Felt like the complete excessive opposite to Meteion, and it was far too soon to have this much of an imposed threat. Should have been more grounded in earth, and honestly this entire segment should have been an entire expansion on its own.

Scions
If there is no where left for these characters to go then they shouldn't have been included in the story. Scions have always been pivotal characters, and how they were handled was a disservice even greater than the staying-time. Their presence, in addition to ours only served to exacerbate the issues with Wuk Lamat. So many characters were put on the side for her to get very little development.

Krile and Erenville
They needed some more development, hence another reason why the whole latter half of the story should have been an expansion in itself.

Gulool Ja and Otis
Both of these characters needed more screen time. They spent a LOT of time trying to build Gulool Ja, but missed out on some important pieces. To only have other parts reiterated time-and-time-and time again. Yes, Wuk, we know your Papa is a great person.

Bakool Ja Ja
Is probably the best done character. His development was very straight to the point, it comes across as organic and didn't feel forced. e.g., putting Wuk on a boat or some other thing for the umpteenth time. If Wuk's development could even remotely mirror something of this or even Zoraal, then IMO, the expansion would have been a lot better.

The expansion had a good premise but failed really hard in execution of the story, and having an MC in Wuk is difficult. If you put everything into that one character then it's a single point of failure/determination for the expansion. This was my biggest problem. They pushed Wuk too much, and it meant that if you didn't like her then... this expansion was only going in 1 direction for the initial story

It had a couple pacing issues but I think overall it was good. Those people who are REFUSING to see there was any good in it can't seem to accept that others opinions can be different from theirs. For me it was better then Stormblood and ARR. It was no Shadowbringers, but I enjoyed it and look forward to doing it again on my alt.