New MNK is too reliant on staring at an UI element

Hello.

I find that new Monk feels particularly bad to play because I have to look at my fury gauge too often. Because it now takes more than 12 reps to loop, memorization of the entire loop of 36 GCDs becomes unintuitive, and I regularly need to check if I have fury to spend; this does not feel good, as this is not the case for any other job in the game.

This feels particularly bad with new encounters in the game that require more attention: while they are very fun to play on other jobs, having to take your gaze away from the patterns to check if you have fury does not feel good. I feel like if the rotation was more like EW\\'s (something closer to 1-1-2 instead of DT 1-2-3) it would make it more intuitive to memorize and reduce the dependence on the UI Element.

Thank you for reading.

I agree, it's unreasonable to expect people to develop muscle memory for a combo that long. 1-1-2 would be better, but at the same time I think it's pretty sad that most monks want the timers back, but we have ask tor small tweaks to this system because we know there's a limit to how much effort they'll actually put into fixing monk.

I hope once they see this version isn't getting more people to play it, they'll try to give the class back some of it's identity.

It’s so funny that they wanted to change Monk in an effort to have them look at buffs more, now we’re staring at the job gauge.
What a mess

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Originally Posted by ChaunceyDlamini

I think it's pretty sad that most monks want the timers back

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Literally no career monks wanted them gone in the first place?

I'm saying it's sad that we're resorting to asking SE to tweak this current version, so that it somewhat feels like it did before. Instead of SE recognizing that the majority of monks want the timers back.

The monk thread on the japenese side has been much more active than over here. Most of the responses are prefaced with "I like the EW version better, but can you at least change it to 1-1-2..."

That should be a clear sign to them that they should bring the timers back. It's kinda ridiculous that they won't. If this was an attempt at a quality of life change that was meant to play the same, but all the feedback they recieve says the jobs less flexible, less intuitive, and less fun... just change it back?

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Originally Posted by koko-on-da-forumz

Literally no career monks wanted them gone in the first place?

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lol yes!
We actually would LOVE to not only have our timers back but Greased Lightning back too. Just give us tools to manage it, not a single serious Monk wanted these things removed.

Honestly, I am having a blast with the new monk it's super unique and its finally a crit focused DPS with the Fury chakra boost the crit rate that honestly is a good idea with the new DRG rework being absolute s- Monk and reaper are both my favourite DPS right now

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

lol yes!
We actually would LOVE to not only have our timers back but Greased Lightning back too. Just give us tools to manage it, not a single serious Monk wanted these things removed.

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Yep, fundamentally the issue with Greased Lightning wasn't inherent to the job or even the concept of it being a buff meant to incentivize you to hound the boss to upkeep it, it was that the tools to actually upkeep it when that was literally impossible were always insufficient by design and that our recovery tools were hamstrung compared to other similar buffs. Greased Lightning actually worked very well at the end of Stormblood when Monk had recovery tools on a reasonable cooldown, and if the devs didn't want people spending GL on Tornado Kicks then the answer was always to make Tornado Kick do something else, not to make Monk's recovery terrible.

Went from 6-8 steps to 12. Not too bad.

Just to be that person, but old Monk was reliant on you looking at UI elements as well, those being your buff bar and the enemy debuffs.

Now, without knowing how long you have played old Monk for, for someone like me who has played it pretty much close to 2.0 launch (second job I levelled to 50), I have over 10 years of keeping track of things via the above. Could it just be that, since you aren't used to looking at your hotbars, or a different UI element, it is just throwing you off? Fundamentally, it is the same concept, just displayed differently.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Could it just be that, since you aren't used to looking at your hotbars, or a different UI element, it is just throwing you off? Fundamentally, it is the same concept, just displayed differently.

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That's part of it, definitely.

But it's also worth accounting for the fact that the buffs and debuffs are integrated into the rest of the combat UI. Your hotbars are layered ontop of that with bulky flashing skill icons. Either you place them somewhere that covers important visual cues or you have to look away from important visual cues to look at your hotbar.

Personally, I wouldn't mind the change so much if they took away the glowing hotbar and forced us to rely on the job gauge. But as is, looking at the job gauge is one step abstracted from literally telling you what button to press next, so it's hard to force myself to not just look at the glowy button in the heat of things.

I agree with you here honestly. I actually have been enjoying the new monk and feel like I'm staring at UI elements slightly less than I was before. It's really not all that difficult to glance at the fury bar before every 3 hit and mentally note, okay the next two 2nd hits are going to be X, the next 3 third hits will be Y. Your 1 button changes every time so it's not like you need to really keep track of it all that often to begin with.

My point is that the rotation was so much simpler back then that you didn't need to stare at the buffs and debuffs with a reasonable amount of time on the job. Remembering to alternate your 1s and 2s was very easy, and the most taxing part on your mental stack was remembering to fit demolish after two True Strikes, but even that was a normal ask. For comparison, the old DRG filler rotation was 10 GCDs long; MNK's was 12 . At even a somewhat moderate level of playing MNK, you likely did not need to stare at your buffs.

My point is that doing that has become a lot harder, now that the sequence has tripled in size. You now need to basically check your UI element at the beginning of every 1-2-3 GCD loop, as memorization of the entire rotation (as in, the 12 repetitions of the 1-2-3 GCD loop, ergo, the 32 GCDs) has become something only accessible to MNK players that are a lot higher on the skill spectrum. No other job, as far as I'm aware, has this long of a filler rotation.

I posit that having your BASIC rotation being this hard to memorize and thus being dependent on you checking on a UI every few seconds is worse design. I know they aren't bringing the timers back, which is why I proposed that they just make the rotation smaller by adjusting the amount of fury granted by each of the setup weaponskills.

My compete opinion on new monk is meh it's fine, yet another monk rework.
Honestly they should look into adding auras to characters to fix ui staring issues. When you switch stance have you glowing or something to show you should use your enhanced moves or something.
I don't think it's a major problem because as I get used to monk I can glance at my beast bar and memorize the next few combos. But yeah it could be handled better.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

My compete opinion on new monk is meh it's fine, yet another monk rework.
Honestly they should look into adding auras to characters to fix ui staring issues. When you switch stance have you glowing or something to show you should use your enhanced moves or something.
I don't think it's a major problem because as I get used to monk I can glance at my beast bar and memorize the next few combos. But yeah it could be handled better.

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Could move the resource bar to the middle of the screen. Or move skill bar to the center to see the highlighted abilities.

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Originally Posted by Hazusu

My point is that the rotation was so much simpler back then that you didn't need to stare at the buffs and debuffs with a reasonable amount of time on the job. Remembering to alternate your 1s and 2s was very easy, and the most taxing part on your mental stack was remembering to fit demolish after two True Strikes, but even that was a normal ask. For comparison, the old DRG filler rotation was 10 GCDs long; MNK's was 12 . At even a somewhat moderate level of playing MNK, you likely did not need to stare at your buffs. ...

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The problem is you are thinking about how log it takes to get back to the start and treating it like a rotation, however, since Monk doesn't follow the rotation like normal jobs, it isn't a fair comparison.

Monk only has 1 'combo' (using that term loosely here), and that is Opo-Opo > Raptor > Coeurl. Each of these has 2 attacks which you use based on what buffs you have. This gives you 8 possible permutations for possible combos, you just need to use the right ones.

However, on the topic of '36 GCD combo strings', you wouldn't even get a chance to go through the whole thing anyway. 36 GCDs, at 2 seconds per GCD, is 72 seconds, which takes you through PB phases, which is going to misalign you from the '36 GCD string' you want to follow anyway.

Again, this is just you thinking about the job wrong. Rather than following a set GCD pattern, you need to adjust on the fly, think ahead, just like old Monk. Which also ties in with Dragoon, I don't think you memorise the full 10 GCD rotation, you, in your head, think Chaotic Spring combo, Heaven's Thrust combo and muscle memory takes it from there.

As an aside, here is the full 36 GCDs in number form, 1 is buff, 2 is spend:
111
222
122
212
121
222
112
222
121
212
122
222

I have similarly highlighted the differentGCD strings that appear more than once. In total, of the 8 possible permutations, only 6 different ones are actually used, missing 211 and 221. This doesn't mean they will never be used as the PB windows can scramble this as I have previously mentioned, which again highlights the importance of adapting to the situation rather than just following a static GCD loop.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Could move the resource bar to the middle of the screen. Or move skill bar to the center to see the highlighted abilities.

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Yeah that's an okay way to fix it but still the beast chakra is connected to the lunar solar thing so it's a pretty big bar, pretty bad if you have a small screen.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

Yeah that's an okay way to fix it but still the beast chakra is connected to the lunar solar thing so it's a pretty big bar, pretty bad if you have a small screen.

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Ideally, they would split the Beast Chakra and the Fury gauges into 2 separate elements so that they can be moved independently, however, I don't think any job has more than 2 elements to their job gauge, so I suspect there might be a limit to what they have allowed jobs to have. Howe easy it would be to change that, I'm not going to comment on.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Ideally, they would split the Beast Chakra and the Fury gauges into 2 separate elements so that they can be moved independently, however, I don't think any job has more than 2 elements to their job gauge, so I suspect there might be a limit to what they have allowed jobs to have. Howe easy it would be to change that, I'm not going to comment on.

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This is the same game that took 11 years to put a countdown on your effects on the party bar. I don't even think they know how to change UI stuff within a reasonable amount of time.

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Originally Posted by Hazusu

because I have to look at my fury gauge too often.

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I don't understand why you would ever need to look at the fury guage when the hotbar literally tells you which button to press next for optimal damage. To be fair, I kind of agree which your overall conclusion, because I find myself looking at the hotbar more often now, and sometimes that makes me get hit by a boss mechanic. But I almost never look at the fury guage.

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Originally Posted by Noox-115

Honestly, I am having a blast with the new monk it's super unique and its finally a crit focused DPS with the Fury chakra boost the crit rate that honestly is a good idea with the new DRG rework being absolute s- Monk and reaper are both my favourite DPS right now

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I'm feeling like we're in the minority, but I recently picked up MNK and I'm having a lot of fun with it also.

As a background, I never liked the low duration Twin Fangs DPS Buff and DOT and found them annoying to keep up.

I do sympathize with MNK mains who hate the change though.

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Originally Posted by Maxilor

I'm feeling like we're in the minority, but I recently picked up MNK and I'm having a lot of fun with it also.

As a background, I never liked the low duration Twin Fangs DPS Buff and DOT and found them annoying to keep up.

I do sympathize with MNK mains who hate the change though.

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Tbh as someone whose had monk as their main melee for years. You get kinda used to it.
Almost every expansion has monk getting reworked. This new iteration isn't that bad imo.
I do miss snap punch already, I like themeing of it but I wish they just kept the snap punch animation with a new effect. It was just so satisfying.

I'll also add that if people really do miss the monk buff and dotting aspect Viper has a dot (well a weakness but it's the same) a damage buff and ninjas Huton. So if you really do miss that from EW, do go and try viper and see if it scratches the same itch. The 2 button combo thing is a bit weird after playing monk for so long but its still worth trying. Also don't worry about Reawaken I know some people view it as enshroud and though it does the same thing it does it in a way more smooth and fun way.

I don't intrinsically mind the Fury redesign.. once I wrapped my head around it and realized it was just a means of holding the players' hand to show which attack they should use next. Yes, I do be glancing a lot a the hotbar to catch what I should/shouldn't be hitting.. but I can appreciate this from a standpoint of trying to elevate some of the lower-skill players that may not have grasped the nuances of the previous rotation. Rather than confusing those players with lighting every skill up, it helpfully only lights up the skills that are currently buffed, or the skills that give buffs if you don't have them. I can respect that.

What I haven't yet grasped is why I have two meditation buttons, that both get upgraded to two different meditation buttons, that all have the same exact effect. Sure, yeah, I get it, one for single, one for aoe.. but best I can figure is they needed to make upgraded buttons just for being able to turn into different skills.. idk. Bit of a sloppy design there.

(disclaimer: am just an 80 MNK picking it back up to level in Bozja after not touching the job in a long while...)

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

I'll also add that if people really do miss the monk buff and dotting aspect Viper has a dot (well a weakness but it's the same) a damage buff and ninjas Huton.

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My understanding is that they're really not things you have to maintain. Just click the glowy button and it'll hand itself, so they're built-in vestigial systems.

Is that wrong?

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Originally Posted by koko-on-da-forumz

My understanding is that they're really not things you have to maintain. Just click the glowy button and it'll hand itself, so they're built-in vestigial systems.

Is that wrong?

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It's true for the buffs but not for the debuff

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Originally Posted by koko-on-da-forumz

My understanding is that they're really not things you have to maintain. Just click the glowy button and it'll hand itself, so they're built-in vestigial systems.

Is that wrong?

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For the buffs kinda, the dot not at all.
If you get stuck bursting a lot like if you saved 2 reawakens and got the 2min cd at the same time with 3 bursts in a row your buffs could drop off, and if you don't use your deathrattles regularly and not follow your main combo inputs correctly you can drop the buffs too. I would of liked if the buffs dropped off quicker to mitigate this.

I don't think the Fury design would necessarily be worse UI wise than our old Disciplined Fist (our status effects) + Demolish (target status effects) if it could just be split from (the rest of) the Master's gauge.

That said, neither would splitting it fix what seems Fury gauge's biggest issues: At this point, nothing but RoF impacts Blitzes or, therefore, Blitz-to-rotation interactions, and the even less frequent maintenance buff / discrete ammo generator (new Demolish) feels worse than a per-18s spreadable debuff nuke (old Demolish). [EDIT: Demolished changed again to every 9th GCD with the Monk changes].

It's more fun, imo, to have something else to want to maximize within RoF windows (alongside empowered Opos, only 1) in soft-CD-limited fashion than one more thing to minimize (alongside Dragon Kicks and Twin Snakes, already 2), and to have more skill options in 2-4 target (where each has at least 6 ticks of life remaining) scenarios. In that regard, EW Monk was head and shoulders above what we're left with now.

I preferred the old: "I glance at my DoT and buff timer and adjust my combo accordingly."

Because at a glance, I can see what skills I need to use, and which ones are next in my rotation. Also, your RoF window just devolves into "How many Opo-Opo's can I fit?" Like, outside of Wind's Reply there is no functional thought process behind playing the job other than standing behind the boss every 9 GCDs after the first application of your Couerl ball; you just hit shiny button or look at your gauge to see how many fillers you have until your RoF window.

It's genuinely baffling how many jobs would just be a better place if they went back to their Stormblood eras, but even Monk in 5.4 was actually decent, Endwalker was a time where CBU3 had an actual idea of what the job was supposed to be, but now... It's just another shitty 2 minute meta job that has absolutely zero things going for it other than the aesthetic, like you're looking for damage? Go with Viper, Reaper, or Samurai, they're infinitely better, and 2 of those jobs don't get reworked every expansion into some unrecognizable mess.

I haven't played new monk much yet, but isn't it just hit the shiny buttons now? If you hit Demolish, you get 3 fury stacks, so then Snap punch lights up for the next 3 attacks. Do you really need to look at the gauge for that?

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Originally Posted by OliverQ

I haven't played new monk much yet, but isn't it just hit the shiny buttons now? If you hit Demolish, you get 3 fury stacks, so then Snap punch lights up for the next 3 attacks. Do you really need to look at the gauge for that?

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Well in hard content I do glance at it sometimes just to see what the cycle is. Then I know what I'm pressing for the next few cycles, I do think it can be shown better with effects on your character. But yeah it's more of an accessibility issue.