Another "I made a forum account just to talk about this" user here. Reading the ongoing discourse about DT has been interesting, validating and a little entertaining if I'm being honest, and I wanted to throw my 2 cents in. It goes without saying this will contain spoilers for the whole of the MSQ.
First: I wouldn't call myself a DT hater. I wanted to leave my thoughts to stew a bit after finishing, because I had a feeling there was a bit of a Honeymoon Period going on in my brain, but after almost a week of being done with MSQ I'd probably still give it a 7/10. Call me easy to please, but I got a lot of enjoyment out of the story even with its failings. Sure there are problems, and quite a few of them too, but I still came out looking forward to seeing where they will go next with the plot and I enjoyed the worldbuilding of Tural. I don’t think it’s as good as Shadowbringers or Endwalker, but it’s still enjoyable enough that I would play through it again. The dungeons and trials are fun, the zones were pretty (lower part of Yak T’el * chef’s kiss *) and the music was great too.
Now for the issues.
Story & Worldbuilding
DT is definitely not the worst thing I have ever played in my entire life, like I've seen some people saying. I can however see how the first half of the story could get very, very boring if you don't feel invested in the feel of your WoL being relegated to side character status. I'll get to Wuk Lamat in a bit more detail later, but this being "her story" didn't necessarily bother me that much, but I don't think it was executed as well as it could be. Constantly feeling like your WoL had next to no reason to be involved in what was happening is not good, and I feel like if you don't see your character as the type to fit into the (somewhat limited) dialogue choices you are given, then there is absolutely no way you're going to get satisfaction from this.
I personally could get behind not being the main character- I was a Stormblood enjoyer when I did it for the first time and because I didn't play it on release (took a break from the game from post-HW to mid post-ShB), I had no idea about how divisive it was to the community. I played it, enjoyed it, and then later found out how many people absolutely despised it. But in comparison to Stormblood, DT unfortunately suffers from not giving much of an overarching threat/villain to the story until way too late into the game. I felt from the near get-go that Bakool Ja Ja wasn't going to be the "real" villain- honestly I thought they were going to kill him off when they inevitably plot twisted into showing the real threat, but not showing said real threat until like 80% through the game really hurt. In Stormblood, Zenos is shown very early on and is a recurring figure throughout. There are other threats established and even though Lyse is the "main character" the threats also threaten you personally. The villains in DT only ever seem to care about Wuk Lamat, up until the very last trial when you are recognised as the "real threat". But since you have next to no connection to this person its a bit empty.
Imagine if Zenos was introduced in the second to last area, only spoke to Lyse, and then decided you were his target in the final dungeon when you fight him. Sphene as a villain has next to no connection to you, she is sus from the get go but you have no option to tell Wuk Lamat she shouldn't be trusting her (again, another point for later) even when your WoL is shown to be giving Sphene the side eye at multiple points in cutscenes. It's frustrating. I'm not sure what I was meant to feel towards her, compassion? Sympathy? All I got was a random woman who appears, has an army that is literally stealing the souls from the people they gunned down when they attacked the city (which Krille sees and then never mentions to anyone btw) and then we have to be friends with her...? At least the final fight against her was cool.
I feel like the worldbuilding in the first 4 zones carried my enjoyment of the story, and then my curiosity/hope for more character development carried me through the last 2. I've played maybe a few hours of FF9 so I recognised some of the references, but it wasn't enough to make me that invested in Alexandria, I just kind of accepted that it was happening and moved on because what I actually wanted (meeting a settlement of Shetona Viera and learning about that culture) was obviously not going to happen.
Side quests seem to be the way to go for getting a tiny bit more of the lore info I wanted. I'm not usually a Yellow Quest completer, but I decided to do them for exp when leveling Picto, just for a change, starting with the ongoing questlines from aether current quests but eventually I just started clearing the map of everything. The role quests are also very good so far (highly recommend the miner/botany questline), but it feels bittersweet that I'm getting this enjoyment from the side content and then thinking "huh if I never did this yellow quest I wouldn't have known anything about this plot point that sounds like it might be important to later story/content".
Characters
Moving on to character writing, I think this is where my main bugbears with DT are. As much as I enjoyed playing it, the parts that made me feel the most frustrated were mostly related to not getting full satisfaction from character development. I feel like most characters got to the end of their story and had said development, but the path to get there was either rushed, a bit lacklustre or in some parts leaving me feeling like I had to do all the mental arithmetic to stitch the story together because the game just refused to touch on the points I felt were important. Note: I play with JP voices, and had no real problems with the voice acting.
Wuk Lamat
I'll get this out of the way first because I don't want this post to turn into another rant on how much she ruined everything. As a character I like Wuk Lamat. The issue is I practically became her conjoined twin. There was this slight frustration throughout where I wanted to spend time with other characters but was forced to pretty much always be with her if the group split up. Everyone knows this, I think most people hated it, but I felt I could just about cope with it until there was one specific quest that made me actually shout at my screen in frustration at being made to go off with her once again. In Heritage Found, I think just before dungeon and the Everkeep trail, Erenville says he wants to talk to you about something, but decides it can wait because dealing with Wuk Lamat's war mongering brother is more important. After all that kicks off and you return to The Backrooms, you are then forced to go back to the Capital and follow Wuk Lamat around with mini Ja and Koana as she just rehashes all the story points up until now (that you, the WoL, was there for and has no need for an explanation of) and you barely even have any comments to contribute (I don't even remember if we say anything, I'm saying "barely anything" to be generous). This was honestly the final straw for me and made me start thinking she was actually hogging screen time. You never follow up on what Erenville wanted to say to you, it's just memory holed I guess, and you are following these guys around doing absolutely nothing when you could be contributing to the group back in Solution 9 who are trying to sort out a solution to the now discovered World Ending Threat. It was what made me start looking back at previous story thinking longingly about how "i really wish I got to do x instead of going with Wuk Lamat again". She took away a lot of time that could have been spent with literally anyone else- I mean the obvious casualties are Erenville and Krille, but even spending just a bit more time with any of the scions would have made them feel like less of an afterthought. I almost forgot Alphinaud and Alisaie were traveling with us at one point, and if I hadn't done a lot of the dungeons with duty support that probably would have felt even more apparent.
I don't have a massive problem with her personality and constant love for peace and understanding, though I do wish that her naivety was punished a bit more and she didn't just suddenly gain the confidence to do everything and anything after 1 pep talk from the squad saying "you need to rely on others :)". I really hope something in a future patch makes it hit home to her that you can't fix everything with the power of friendship- because her Dad being murdered in front of her didn't seem to do that. Also, considering Wuk Lamat seems to consider Erenville a very close/important friend, she doesn't really ever show it (in DT at least). I will give Erenville his own section, because the issues I had with how they handled his story are probably what got me down the rabbit(lol) hole that was critiquing this expansion, but I was really specifically disappointed about how it felt there was next to nothing mentioned about their friendship and Wuk Lamat is so busy getting to know the local AI generated residents of the last area that she forgets to show a shred of care for her friend who is dealing with not only the sudden, unexplained death of his mother but also the complete loss of his village?? She doesn't even console him in the final area before he has to delete his mother, it was like fucking whiplash seeing how caring she could be to everyone around the continent, even the "people" in Living Memory that we are told repeatedly aren't even real, but doesn't even try to be there for Erenville who, in her own words from 6.55, is someone who she's been "thick as thieves with since they were kids". She's more concerned about Sphene's thoughts and feelings than someone she's seemingly known for like 20 years?? Knowing the game has many really well written characters then seeing inconsistencies like this is really jarring and disappointing.
Erenville (& Cahcuia)
I didn't expect to come out of DT with this guy being my favourite character in the series, sure I liked him enough in Endwalker but he was just a side character that I didn't expect to see again. But apparently YoshiP liked him a lot, and now I guess I'm on the same team. Following on slightly from what I wrote about Wuk Lamat, when the two appeared in 6.55 I really loved the dynamic between them and was looking forward to learning a bit more about their relationship/history come the expansion. That didn't happen, and I'm very disappointed.
Honestly, that statement could apply to how I feel about a lot of Erenville's storyline. There were so many times where I felt there was an opportunity to give him a chance to talk about himself but then they just... didn't happen. It started to feel like a bit of a running joke where he would open his mouth to say something personal and then he'd get cut off by something. Now, maybe this was intended to make him seem mysterious and that didn't want to talk about himself to people. This might have been true, but how do we know this when barely anyone ever asks him anything. The quest summaries in the journal felt like they were gaslighting me at points where it says he’s reserved and not giving away personal information, when no one ever even asks 90% of the time. Most of the times where people do ask him something (Alphinaud on the boat in the beginning for example), he starts to talk about it pretty casually, but then gets cut off before he can finish what he was saying and then it's never followed up on again.
I think the writers did well in some parts, but then didn't really go in and capitalise on it, leaving me to come to my own conclusions and then wondering "was that intentional?" or if I just created a headcanon. For example, I started getting the impression Erenville had some feeling of resentment towards his mother and I think that was semi-confirmed in the final area, but it's not really explicitly said at any other point than when, just before we turn off the terminal in the last area, Erenville snaps at her saying something along the lines of that she is "making all the decisions and then leaving again". In sheriff town, Iyaate tells you that Cahcuia regularly went off exploring, leaving Erenville behind, and that he would cry and beg to be taken with her. She then tells him when he becomes a real explorer he can come with her and tasks him with finding the Golden City, which according to Wuk Lamat in 6.55 he was trying pretty hard at doing, but eventually he gives up assuming its a fairy tale or just some way to tell him to grow up and go see the world. Nice story telling, I like it. When you enter Solution 9 for the first time, Cahcuia asks him to tell her about you and your adventures together. Erenville makes a passing remark about finding the Golden City, Cahcuia is shocked and wants to know more, chasing after him. You’re practically invited to join in with that interaction, but no. Why, game, after all the build up to this moment do I have to go explore with Wuk Lamat instead of getting to see that interaction take place? I was waiting for them to bring it up again later but, again, that does not happen.
I was hoping there could have been more interactions between Erenville and Cahcuia before the literal last section of the last area of the game, but most of the time Cahcuia is around before then is to advance the plot of dealing with Zarool Ja. She is someone who is there to be part of Erenville's story and development, but she’s used as part of Wuk Lamat's instead. Why is it constantly shown that Cahcuia traveled around with Gulool Ja Ja (she even appears in the Echo flashback of ending the war between the Mamool Ja and Hrothgars in Yak Tel), but I get no opportunity to hear her talk about that except right before she's about to get deleted she says "wow that was so much fun even better than my travels with Gulool Ja Ja"? Did Erenville even know about her adventures? I assume so, since he wanted to go with her so badly, but he seemed shocked to see his mother's name on the stone remembering the heroes that defeated Valigarmanda (which no one asks him about even though he seemed to read it aloud audibly). I just feel like there were so many missed opportunities for moments characters could have shared together that would have helped make everything feel more fleshed out. I was hoping to finally see them reconnect since Erenville only was going back to Tural in the first place to visit home after 3 years away, and if she was just straight up dead after The Dome incident that would have been pretty emotional (honestly what I was expecting before entering the zone). But instead, she’s (kind of?) alive, and I’m left with all these unanswered questions that felt like they had ample opportunities to cover. At least sheriff land was fun while it lasted. Hopefully the hints at the future of the story from post credits (him looking into animal issues with the cats) actually leads to either main or side content.
Krille
Despite it being implied she was going to be an extremely important core character to the expansion, my girl really got shafted. I can complain about Erenville’s story all I like, but at least he had more than Krille got. The fact she found out about her real parents was great, but apart from that she didn’t get to do much at all. Even her earring didn’t work on the door without mini Ja using it. Considering her motivation to come with us was that she felt kind of useless during the final days, at least during that time she was acting as some kind of vessel for Hydaelyn to talk to us. I did like her echo showing Zoraal Ja’s emotions in a very foreboding way, was a nice touch, but maybe it would have been nice to have a few more instances of it- for example foreshadowing Bakool Ja Ja’s mental breakdown. I can only hope this is used as a set up to give her more of a place in the story going forward and they don’t just forget about her.
I could go on about more but I don’t want this to get much longer. The expansion’s writing as a whole had a lot of flaws for sure, and I think people are right to be voicing their complaints so CBU3 know they need to work on it in the future. Although Wuk Lamat is at the centre of a lot of these issues I don’t think it’s fair to dumb it down to just that. Even if she was pulled back from screen time I think the general plot had holes that still needed to be fixed. But is it the absolute worst thing I’ve ever played and the death of the game as a whole? No, far from it, and I will look forward to what they do next.
[Feedback] Another Post about Dawntrail MSQ
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07-08-2024, 03:25 AMaTanpopo[Feedback] Another Post about Dawntrail MSQ
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07-08-2024, 03:41 AMVerathel
If they add a personal duty in 7.1 where we duel Wuk Lamat and we get to beat her senseless I will instantly change my score to 11/10 from 7/10 so far.
All jokes aside(not really) she really needs a reality check if for nothing else for narrative reasons.
Yeah, the lack of continuity, plot holes, obvious overlooking of important character traits, one dimensional conversations...The quality of the writing has been all over the place. All in all it feels quality control was lacking or I don't know honestly. First expansion I ever played where these things became glaringly obvious.
Yet, just as you said at the end of the day I still like the expansion so far and outside of the MSQ I actually have a lot more positive stuff to say about it. -
07-08-2024, 03:47 AMAerstzwyn
I'll just harp with you on the Wuk Lamat issue. She is ubiquitous. She is front and center this entire expansion and I was fine with it. I understood we were sort of mentoring her and raising her up and I was on board with that. I got that she was supposed to be young, naive and insecure. All good. But in the last trial fight, the one where we could have gone full Warrior of Light and just shown that yes indeed, there is things only the WoL and his companions can accomplish... she comes in, shouts her nonsense and gives us HER buff. No, we don't get Brilliant Conviction or any other WoL-themed buff. We get a Wuk-themed buff. By that moment my feelings towards her instantly dipped into the negative, and far. They couldn't even give us that one tiny moment apart from her. She HAD to appear. She HAD to claim the victory. She HAD to keep yapping.
Overall I agree with the 7/10. Pacing issues, constant "talk to X NPCs" quests, constant "clench fist" emotes, constant Wuk Lamat. No character development. No character depth. Shallow philosophy. Shallow villains. This is mediocre start to finish.
The art and music teams did a stellar job, as usual. No complaints there. -
07-08-2024, 04:59 AMaTanpopoThat made me chuckle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Verathel
I do feel like if most of my issues with character writing could be explained by "i wish i didnt have to spent all this time with Wuk Lamat" its a bad sign, but i can't hate her completely. She was enjoyable at times, just... everything in moderation? Especially when I only met you 5 minutes ago and now you're trying to be my best friend.
Also the interruption in the final trial alone wasn't my issue, it was more the fact even after Sphene made it very clear she is not a good person here, Wuk Lamat is still trying to "understand" her and be besties with her. If she actually changed her mind on her maybe i would have celebrated the interruption as some much needed character development lol -
07-08-2024, 05:11 AMAurumis
I think if you erase Wuk Lamat after the first half of the story, right after the Rite she steps back to help her people, and Erenville and Krile became the main MC with you, DT would have a solid 7/10 or 8/10 but as how it is, no. It's at most a 5/10 because the these 5 are dungeons, music and enviroment.
The writting is bad, but we could cope with it if it wasn't for Wuk Lamat. So yes, she is the main issue in the story. And yes, she had to step back in the last trial and don't intervene. And if she does, G'raha and Krile HAD to be there too to make sense.
G'raha is more powerful than Wuk Lamat, and Krile should have shine in battle as she wanted to do since the beginning. -
07-08-2024, 05:24 AMAmenara
I agree, I think Wuk shouldn't have taken center stage in both halves of the story. She made a lot of sense and I enjoyed her in the first half but I think the second half should have been entirely an Erenville and Krille story. It would be fine if she tagged along because of her brother but they should have left it at that instead of doing a complete rehash of the first half of the game showing Sphene as another leader who like Wuk cares about her people. I am probably on the minority but I think the first half was much better put together narratively than the second half. I was really interested in the premise of going on a trial to retrace Gulool Ja Ja's steps and to learn about the new area as well as all the new cultures. The second half just felt tacked on and didn't click with me.
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07-08-2024, 05:36 AMManamaru
The song "Smile" used in Dawntrail and what seems like the devs finding whatever excuse or moment to hamfist this highschool musical disney-esc song I'd almost wonder if Squenix was working on something kingdom-hearts/disney related at the time of development and decided to put their music talent to work since they already had them over.
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07-08-2024, 05:50 AMaTanpopoI think the first half was better in that sense too. I enjoyed the second half up until The Dome appeared, then it started going a bit off the rails for me. I wondered if it was just because I couldn't get behind all the FF9 references (it felt a little shoehorned in) because I haven't played much of it, but if it was better written then that probably wouldn't have been a problem. The longer it went on, the more bitter I was feeling that the story points I wanted to see weren't happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amenara
Honestly I understand a 5/10. The only reasons I was bumping it up for me personally were that there were a couple of parts that made me cry, not just wet eyes but actual crying. Shadowbringers is still my favourite story but even that didn't make me cry. Endwalker I got a bit teary, but still i didn't need tissues. But in saying that, the only reason I did get that emotional in Dawntrail was because I felt for the characters involved- there were plenty of other parts I felt were meant to be emotionally impactful that didn't do anything for me at all. So it was kind of hit-or-miss on that front. And also a bonus point for the side content being pretty good so far, motivating me to level my other classes so I can do more role quests and find out what else there is to experience, and also getting me to do random yellow quest chains because I got interested in the lore of the areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurumis
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07-08-2024, 05:55 AMjumps004
Really well written post that conveys many great points of in both measured praise and criticism. I felt like you conveyed a lot of my own feelings towards Dawntrail even. To not just completely parrot your post, more Krile and Erenville are sorely needed in my eyes.
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07-08-2024, 12:11 PMVerathelDesperately needed and partially to add she's now the co-ruler of an entire freaking continent. Narratively wise if she met the leaders of Eorzea and other places....It would be ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by aTanpopo
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07-08-2024, 02:50 PMPapayatar
You reminded me of how much I was bothered by Wuk Lamat’s and Erenville’s friendship dynamic in this expansion.
Pre-expansion the build up of what their relationship was, was interesting and it makes you want to learn more. Seemed like a typical Tsundere friend + energetic friend dynamic so it could have been fun.
But what we get is like you said, Wuk Lamat doesn’t treat him like a childhood friend she’s known for decades. We’re always told, not shown, how close they were as kids. I think even Cahicua makes light that Erenville was very happy (or clingy?) toward Wuk Lamat when they had playdates or whatever when they were together as children.
What we get is Wuk Lamat barely acknowledge his existence, then on Erenville’s side he’s always scolding her and treating her like a child (rightly so tbh) but his follow up actions seem more like, I have to help with this idiot. And not I’m helping my idiot friend while joking about it, in a way that friends do. Like with playful back and forth banter you do with friends. Sometimes he seemed just as exhausted with her as some of us IRL people felt about her and her actions.
Top it off with the Golden City, and Wuk Lamat seems so uninterested, and considering to how she treated everyone else, downright cold to Erenville. He’s her childhood friend, possibly even best friend, and even if he’s slow to open up about his feelings, she at minimum doesn’t ask him how he’s doing? It’s like she cared 0 about her “friend” who was being made to speed through processing his grief. I think it was either Krile or G’raha (not 100% on this but it wasn’t Wuk Lamat) who actually mentioned something about Erenville’s attitude.
Wuk Lamat had more compassion for Bakool Ja Ja than she did her childhood friend. -
07-08-2024, 04:51 PMMondschnee
Erenville for me was by far the highlight this expansion. He's grown to be my most favorite FFXIV character. He was well written, but I still think they didn't fully do him justice. I have so many questions. My biggest questions being, how did his mother even die? What happened, and why? And why did he not get the opportunity to ask her? Why was this not addressed, and why does she have a different accent than her own son? Is this just an oversight? Because at this time, it feels like one.
I would have loved to spend more with him and also Krile, who unfortunately felt like a bit of an afterthought even though she was supposed to be a main character. I felt like other expansions did a better job at balancing characters.
And while I do *like* Wuk Lamat overall, there was a point where she became just too much and they should have given other characaters the spotlight instead. Her conclusions and lines felt extremely repetitive towards the end. Other characters definitely could have contributed more.
Overall I did have a good time with the story. The parts others found boring I enjoyed, but I am biased. Erenville's optional dialogues where very entertaining and sometimes heart-wrenching and I couldn't wait to get more of them, and also... the scenery and music where amazing.
Edit: Another thing. I have to agree that our Warrior of Light felt really out of focus. Most of the time, we were just watching from the sidelines, which is a shame. Even as a mentor, we could have done more; For example, we could have had a training session with Wuk Lamat, fighting against her to give her more combat experience. Instead she just randomly became stronger at one point.
I wish we could have been more involved with her character development, too. I don't know. Something was just missing. -
07-08-2024, 05:00 PMLoggosSomebody would have to confirm this because I don't speak Japanese but I've heard that in the Japanese localisation she doesn't even say that he was very eager and happy to play with her when they were children.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papayatar
Kind of like "fussy little bunbun" is an invention by the English localisation. I don't know if the Japanese version still conveys on an unspoken level that he was excited to play with her or if the English version changed his characterisation in that regard. -
07-08-2024, 05:36 PMMnemy
Ok since this is a DT MSQ feedback and I want to be heard so badly forgive me If I copy paste parts what I said in the other DT discussion thread to here
I'm I made a forum account right now just to share what I have in mind. I actually enjoy the 90 to 93 part of the story if you can believe it mostly because Tural is such a beautiful place and the zones are absolutely gorgeous except for the last one, I didnt like that. But then as the story goes on, It started creeping up on me. The scions are a lobotomized versions of themselves, WukLam is always stuck with you, and unlike Lyse, Alphi, Estinien, back in their respective DLC, WukLam doesnt get any bonding moments/ heart to heart with the other Scions so the others ended up stagnating and only WukLam gets character development If I can even call it that. And her always being stuck with us IS SUFFOCATING. When we reached the 1st part of Xak Tural, I actually breathe a sigh of relief cus I can finally, FINALLY, get a moment to myself and I actually thought its time for Erenville's spotlight and maybe later, Krile's spotlight too! But then no! It's WukLam until the end. She hogged all the spotlight away from the other characters, Krile and Erenville deserves better than this.
Zoraal Ja is a very forgettable villain for me. I literally forgot the guy existed and I only remembered he does when we reached Mamool Ja area. And then after that we dont even know why the hell is he doing what he's doing and by the time we do, its too late.
As the other DT MSQ discussion said WoL is literally just an accessory. WoL is not part of the story. WoL is not even the fifth character they're an extra. I know alot of people who like the story keeps saying that "the reason why you dont like the story is because you are not the main character" It's not even about us being a main character that I want, I just want to feel like I'm part of the story! This is not just Wuk Lamat's story its supposed to be ours too! The people barely recognize our existence, I'm pretty sure the story could exist without us. WE ARE LITERALLY NONEXISTENT. All I want is for people to see our WoL and recognize he's there, and Gulol is the only person who did that, who recognized us. In StB and HW I dont mind Lyse and Alphi+Estinien being the main characters because they are well written and we are still part of the story. We are still there! In DT we are literally like a fly on the wall. We are literally just standing there menacingly and nothing more. No recognition, not character development. Its the "Just standing there menacingly" DLC. I want to be a part of the story. The reason I loved FFXIV from HW to EW is because its not just our friend's journey its also our journey, with character growth both for our old friends and new friends along the way.
I just want to be heard so bad becuase I love game but oh man this DLC really bummed me out. I hope the patches win me over I really do cus I love this game. -
07-08-2024, 07:06 PMaTanpopoTrue, but there's also opportunity for some good character growth there i think. If she acted unprofessional/really inexperienced in front of world leaders and she was judged pretty harshly for it I think it would be a good moment for her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Verathel
Yeah I wondered how she died as well. Since rabbits live for like ~400 years, and Erenville is 25 according to the latest Encyclopaedia, unless Cahcuia was already super old when she had him I doubt the 30 year time skip would have been enough to make her die of old age.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mondschnee
Also the accent thing was a hilarious double take for me- I didn't know because JP voices, but I asked a friend what she sounded like in english and they said "black american woman". Honestly I wish I could have seen my own face in that moment, the confusion I felt lol.
I went back and checked, she does say they played together as kids. Unfortunately she does speak extremely fast for my non-fluent ears so unless I change my text language I'm not gonna get the absolute specifics on that lol. She does speak about Wuk Lamat with nostalgia though, so I get the impression it was at least a fond memory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loggos
Yeah honestly biggest disappointment for me was not getting that dynamic between them again. It's kind of there, but Wuk Lamat spends so much time concerned about everything else that after the first area or 2 she's treating us as her best friend instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papayatar
And the lack of compassion in Living Memory bothered me probably more than it should have done. I went back and checked the scene you were talking about. Wuk Lamat tries to talk with Erenville but he walks off saying he'll explore alone, then Krile brings up that he's still coming to terms with everything. Wuk Lamat then just says "you can't really blame him, lets just leave him be" and you go off on your volcanic exploration. If she was saying that at the beginning of the zone maybe I'd get behind it, but at this point it was starting to feel like the elephant in the room everyone was ignoring. You can't really dedicate that area to trying to find Erenville and console him, because that would mean Krile wouldn't get her moment with her parents, so it just ends up with, again, more frustration at how the writers paced everything.
Even in the final area, when Cahcuia is asking you to help her have a little adventure before she dies (i dont think the english really says it, but in JP voice she literally says "before i die :)"), Erenville says something like "you can't seriously be asking me to do this right?" but Wuk Lamat still doesn't show any concern and is just like "Yeah we'll help you out Cahcuia of course :D!" It just feels completely tone deaf, and no one else says anything which makes it feel even weirder. Cahcuia is such a 'Free Spirit' who loves adventuring that she regularly leaves her kid with a babysitter just to go have fun exploring- at parts I found my self saying "hey Erenville your mum's a bit of an asshole", but idk if that was intended by the writers and it was never explored in interactions so I guess that's just gonna stay as a headcanon for me. -
07-08-2024, 09:22 PMLoggosAh but that's in line with what I was told. I heard that she did mention they played but the part of Erenville being explicitly excited was not part of the Japanese original.Quote:
Originally Posted by aTanpopo
I was also told about the nostalgia part, as in, she muses about their childhood from her own perspective and focuses on her own positive feelings of nostalgia.
(So in theory it could have been the case, that for her their childhood was cute and nostalgic as it is for most parents when they think back to their children being small. But that doesn't automatically mean Erenville was actually actively excited to play with Wuk. I also don't mean to claim the opposite, I just think the Japanese version doesn't answer this question at all in that part of the dialogue?
Or does the feeling of nostalgia imply that Erenville was excited from a Japanese perspective?) -
07-08-2024, 10:28 PMaTanpopoHonestly i'm not sure, but it feels kind of open to interpretation so i can't completely blame the localisation team. I mean, if it's nostalgic its probably a fond memory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loggos
Listening again, Cahcuia said something along the lines of "Aren't you Gulool Ja Ja's daughter? That takes me back! You and Elene'shpya used to play together sometimes! Do you remember me?"
So there's nothing specific that says he was excited, but you could spin it to say she was remembering it nostalgically because she was seeing her son enjoying playing with someone, given how people say he seemed pretty antisocial growing up. But the english localisation definitely is adding in more meaning to the scene than the original lines- debatable whether that's a good thing or not. Sure they haven't changed the overall story that much by doing it, but it does make me question how much the characterisation of certain people is changed just from a few lines here and there. I'll be interested to go back and look at the japanese text for non-voiced scenes and see if that changes my impressions of anyone. It's also an issue that could have been less of a problem if the story elaborated on their relationship more than a few off hand comments, but instead I guess we just have our imaginations to play with.
All we can probably piece together is they know each other because their parents adventured together in the past. Wuk Lamat says they're childhood friends (she says in JP they are 幼なじみ which checks out- childhood friend/playmate), Erenville says they're just acquaintances who have known each other for a long time (「昔から知り合いだけだ」). I always interpreted it as Erenville playing it down, given how other NPCs reacted to it too, but now because of how there's seemingly no chemistry between them in DT I'm starting to wonder if he was telling the truth lmao. -
07-09-2024, 02:20 AMPapayatarI knew she said something but that actually seems worse than I remembered. Because she treated like, he’ll get over it eventually let’s go do something else. Just dismissed completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by aTanpopo
I wish the zones were split in two so it would be Krile story beats in the first two, Erenville story beats in the second two. Then we’d have dedicated time to talk to at least Erenville about what’s going on. Even if he wanted to be left alone it’d have been nice to have the WoL (with or without Wuk Lamat Velcroed to our hip) to check on him. If they went that route it give Wuk Lamat a moment to actually show us that she does care about her friends feelings and what he’s going through right now.
Then at least when she glazes over Erenville feeling uncomfortable about giving his mom her last adventure it could maybe be read as diffusing the tension of the situation and not wanting to draw attention to Erenville quietly suffering. But without any check-in on him from Wuk Lamat it seems plain mean. And no one in our group saying anything after his outburst did make it so weird. I know every moment we could interact with NPCs I was checking in on him. It gave me a peace of mind that, for my WoL story and personality they’d actually make sure Erenville is doing alright in some capacity. -
07-09-2024, 02:50 AMaTanpopoYeah i did the same with the interactions, not just at that part but i think from maybe the 2nd area onwards? Just to try and make it feel like I was getting to interact with people. But as it got to the later parts of the story I felt like I was trying to convince myself my WoL was paying attention to her friends/consoling them. Even before that final point (i think i mentioned it in a previous post) she just says "lets leave him to it", and yeah some people do just like to be left alone, but considering Wuk Lamat is obsessed with trying to understand everyone she meets, I wonder why she doesn't seem to try and do the same with her friends?Quote:
Originally Posted by Papayatar
Part of me really hopes they follow up on these missed story beats in future patches, but I also don't want to disappoint myself if they never do...