To the devs, from a Viper fan, with love...

I think everyone who cares one way or another already knows about the announced adjustments to Viper from yesterday.

At this point, I think the devs have to have taken note of all the Viper fans asking them to reconsider making any major changes. The gaming press certainly has. (I saw an article on PC Gamer about it earlier this morning).

With respect to the people who don't like the job, I definitely fall into the "don't change it so soon" category. I made an account on the forum so I could post about it!

And with that in mind, I wanted to say something to the devs: I think you did a good job with Viper. I hope you see the immediate outcry against changing the job, and realize it is because you did good work that so many people already like viper this much. Is the job perfect? Of course not! (Looking at you, vipersight gauge...)

But people already really like the job, and while criticism is always a mixed bag on the internet, I hope you take it constructively, whatever direction you end up going with the job.

Thank you! :)

The changes make very little sense to me. The only problem I have with the job still remains, so it still won't be very comfortable for me to play (I'm not saying what it is because, frankly, I don't think the job needs any changes).

Hopefully they go further with the changes. Making the job less busy seems to be a step in the right direction. :)

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Heartnet

Hopefully they go further with the changes. Making the job less busy seems to be a step in the right direction. :)

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You have been in every single one of these threads saying that it's good they're changing it, and you have also argued that those who don't want any changes "aren't being constructive."

How about you be constructive here? What "further" changes would you like to see, and why? Clear examples backed up with clear reasons, please. If you need examples of that, you can look at my own thread on the subject relating to specific GCDs and weaves, etc.

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Heartnet
Hopefully they go further with the changes. Making the job less busy seems to be a step in the right direction.

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Respectfully, I disagree. You have the right to an opposing opinion, but I do not share it. Ultimately, I think if more people are saying they like the class as is (and it certainly seems that way, based on the threads im seeing across the last couple of days) it seems kind of mean spirited to cheer for gutting it even more than was already announced, and do so in every thread on the subject.

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Originally Posted by Arkrayven

You have been in every single one of these threads saying that it's good they're changing it, and you have also argued that those who don't want any changes "aren't being constructive."

How about you be constructive here? What "further" changes would you like to see, and why? Clear examples backed up with clear reasons, please. If you need examples of that, you can look at my own thread on the subject relating to specific GCDs and weaves, etc.

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Thank you for asking for my opinions. Please let me know in my following explanation on what you want more information or clarification on.

Personally, I would like to see positionals removed. This is a big thing for me as I see positionals as kind of a waste when you have several bosses in the game that are wall bosses that you cant use rear positionals on. I personally find it pointless to give a class positionals and then create bosses where you can't use some of the positionals. Even if all positionals work on a wall boss, I want to be able to get in that position as that is how the rotation should be done. TL;DR having bosses in the game that defeats the purpose of positionals makes positionals pointless to me and should be removed. Its just adding needless complexity that can't always be applied.

Compacting Skills: I would like to see either the single target melee combo or the aoe melee combo to have the combos compressed down to 1 or 2 buttons like it is in pvp. Preferably the AoE melee combo to reduce combo bloat. Normally I would have the combos in the main hotbar but there is no room die to the sheer amount of combo buttons the viper has and would be alot easier to manage and reduce business if at the very least the aoe combo is done like the pvp skills where u can combo on one button alone. To be clear, I am not asking for the removal of total skills but to compact the combo to less buttons.

Job Gauge: I would like the job gauge to more clearly represent if your main combo is a rear or flank positional. Correct me if I am wrong but as it is now, it just tells you left or right in ur 2nd combo step and that determines whether u end in flank or rear but doesnt specifically tell you on its own if it is flank or rear. Which can mess you up at the heat of the moment.

I hope I my feedback was clear to you. Thanks again for asking for my thoughts. :)

I REALLY don't like that they're changing a job like this and announced it less than a week after it's release. Viper is incredibly intuitive and plays about how you'd expect. I was excited to play a super busy job with lots of stuff to do and reducing that would be to strip the job of its unique identity. So what if it's difficult for some people? That should be wholly acceptable. The point of having so many jobs in the game is to cater to every play style. What then is the point in making every job for everyone? If the aesthetic style of a job is the only reason to choose it, why then would someone who doesn't care about aesthetic style every choose one job over another? Why even have 20+ jobs when you're just going to turn every job into a gray paste consumable by every player? Let jobs have identities and different skill floors and ceilings.

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Heartnet

Thank you for asking for my opinions. Please let me know in my following explanation on what you want more information or clarification on.

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I think why you're having a miscommunication with people here -- or the true tell that you're telling, whichever is which -- is that nothing you said has anything to do with the announced changes.

I actually have few to no issues with your analysis, but I do take issue with your conclusion. The fact wall bosses exist does not, in my opinion, invalidate the fact that positionals exist at all. Furthermore, their proposed change of reducing, not removing all of, the Viper positionals means that you won't get what you want anyway.

Secondly, compacting the AoE to one line/ it functioning differently in PvP is more due to a difference in those game modes.
would work better if you didn't have three buffs to apply, but I can see why you'd want it, although I doubt it's doable. Again though, this has nothing to do either with positionals or the job's "busyness", which is the purpose of the announced changes.

Thirdly, a clearer job gauge (or honestly, the ability to hide it while leaving Rattling Coils up) is a completely fair ask. You are both correct in that it indicates whether to hit "left" or "right" but that the final step itself doesn't have an indicator. There's no reason it can't.

However, you said that you think the announced changes are a "step in the right direction", yet nothing you said has anything to do with the jobs "busyness", and as I covered in the first paragraph, the removal of one positional hardy equates to the removal of all positionals in the game. For this reason it's still hard to tell whether or not you're just trolling, and you'll probably continue to be taken as such. But again, maybe that's your goal to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Heartnet

wall bosses

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don't have positional requirements.

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Originally Posted by ItsMeZee

Respectfully, I disagree. You have the right to an opposing opinion, but I do not share it. Ultimately, I think if more people are saying they like the class as is (and it certainly seems that way, based on the threads im seeing across the last couple of days) it seems kind of mean spirited to cheer for gutting it even more than was already announced, and do so in every thread on the subject.

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Thanks for voicing your concern. I apologize that it seems that way to you but I feel that it's important to voice my opinions just as you feel that its important to voice yours as we both wish opposing things. I have no malicious intent but as I've mentioned in other threads, people who voiced these concerns are the reason the changes were announced in the first place. There is clearly two sides and no real reliable statistic to gauge where people stand as feedback for one side usually comes after an announced change while the opposing side is usually quiet until they are the ones dealing with changes they don't want.

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Heartnet

people who voiced these concerns are the reason the changes were announced in the first place. There is clearly two sides

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That's another thing about this: nobody, here or on JP forums/Twitter, seems to be aware of who raised these concerns in the first place. The changes seem to have been announced from nowhere, and few to no threads have been created supporting the changes -- they are all negative reactions. So if you could link to any thread you made, or saw, asking for changes after the release of Viper but prior to the announced changes, I'd be incredibly curious to see it.

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Originally Posted by Arkrayven

I think why you're having a miscommunication with people here -- or the true tell that you're telling, whichever is which -- is that nothing you said has anything to do with the announced changes.

I actually have few to no issues with your analysis, but I do take issue with your conclusion. The fact wall bosses exist does not, in my opinion, invalidate the fact that positionals exist at all. Furthermore, their proposed change of reducing, not removing all of, the Viper positionals means that you won't get what you want anyway.

Secondly, compacting the AoE to one line/ it functioning differently in PvP is more due to a difference in those game modes.
would work better if you didn't have three buffs to apply, but I can see why you'd want it, although I doubt it's doable. Again though, this has nothing to do either with positionals or the job's "busyness", which is the purpose of the announced changes.

Thirdly, a clearer job gauge (or honestly, the ability to hide it while leaving Rattling Coils up) is a completely fair ask. You are both correct in that it indicates whether to hit "left" or "right" but that the final step itself doesn't have an indicator. There's no reason it can't.

However, you said that you think the announced changes are a "step in the right direction", yet nothing you said has anything to do with the jobs "busyness", and as I covered in the first paragraph, the removal of one positional hardy equates to the removal of all positionals in the game. For this reason it's still hard to tell whether or not you're just trolling, and you'll probably continue to be taken as such. But again, maybe that's your goal to begin with.

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For the second point, I am not entirely sure what is in squares ability or what is not since I am not a developer and do not know the limitations caused by the spaghetti code. All I know is that its done for pvp so I assume that its possible. Whether it truly is or isnt is unknown to me.

I disagree with positionals not equating to business as to me they do.

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Originally Posted by ItsMeZee

Respectfully, I disagree. You have the right to an opposing opinion, but I do not share it. Ultimately, I think if more people are saying they like the class as is (and it certainly seems that way, based on the threads im seeing across the last couple of days) it seems kind of mean spirited to cheer for gutting it even more than was already announced, and do so in every thread on the subject.

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Thanks for voicing your concern. I apologize that it seems that way to you but I feel that it's important to voice my opinions just as you feel that its important to voice yours as we both wish opposing things. I have no malicious intent but as I've mentioned in other threads, people who voiced these concerns are the reason the changes were announced in the first place. There is clearly two sides and no real reliable statistic to gauge where people stand as feedback for one side usually comes after an announced change while the opposing side is usually quiet until they are the ones dealing with changes they don't want.

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Originally Posted by Rhael

don't have positional requirements.

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Im aware hence why I said

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Even if all positionals work on a wall boss, I want to be able to get in that position as that is how the rotation should be done

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Thanks for trying to clear that up though.
My apologies. It seems like a few people get that troll feel for some reason but I am genuine about my response. To my understanding, trolling is done to infuriate people but I have been as respectful as possible and trying not to word things disrespectfully to not cause anger because when people get angry, they become stubborn and become closed to suggestions and thoughts of others which defeats the purpose of using this forum.

It's hard to gauge what square enix means when they don't make clear what the changes are. I am for the reduction of positionals but you asked "what further changes" I would like to see and I would like to see the complete removal of positionals.

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Originally Posted by Arkrayven

That's another thing about this: nobody, here or on JP forums/Twitter, seems to be aware of who raised these concerns in the first place. The changes seem to have been announced from nowhere, and few to no threads have been created supporting the changes -- they are all negative reactions. So if you could link to any thread you made, or saw, asking for changes after the release of Viper but prior to the announced changes, I'd be incredibly curious to see it.

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Maybe it was some streamer? That or whoever was filing a complaint was doing so through the "leave a suggestion" when directly contacting the devs so it would be harder to trace.

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Originally Posted by Arkrayven

That's another thing about this: nobody, here or on JP forums/Twitter, seems to be aware of who raised these concerns in the first place. The changes seem to have been announced from nowhere, and few to no threads have been created supporting the changes -- they are all negative reactions. So if you could link to any thread you made, or saw, asking for changes after the release of Viper but prior to the announced changes, I'd be incredibly curious to see it.

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My source is https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...6321a515d36909 which I took at face value.

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we’ve received feedback pertaining to the busyness of their skill rotation. To that end, we’re planning several improvements,

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Heartnet

My source is https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...6321a515d36909 which I took at face value.

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Which is not the question I asked; thereby, you confirm that you yourself have seen no actual call for change.

Furthermore, the removal of all positionals from all melee jobs is outside of the scope of Viper changes. It's also not based in any logic in the first place to argue they should get removed, solely because some wall bosses exist. To take your argument one step further, it's like saying that because some bosses favors ranged DPS or casters (see: Eden raids), all melee should be removed.

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Originally Posted by Arkrayven

Which is not the question I asked; thereby, you confirm that you yourself have seen no actual call for change.

Furthermore, the removal of all positionals from all melee jobs is outside of the scope of Viper changes. It's also not based in any logic in the first place to argue they should get removed, solely because some wall bosses exist. To take your argument one step further, it's like saying that because some bosses favors ranged DPS or casters (see: Eden raids), all melee should be removed.

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I apologize, I have taken squares response as a representation of said people. I have went to look for where this feedback is coming from since I assume it was from the japanese forum. I had some trouble since google translate wasnt letting me access some pages. I found a thread and realized that the early comments were before launch and the criticism started sprouting later down the thread. I believe and am not 100% positive that this is the source where square is taking the feedback. Here is the link.
Translate: https://forum-square--enix-com.trans...n&_x_tr_pto=sc
Raw link https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...82%B9%E3%83%AC

I dont fully understand your 2nd poiint you're making here. I believe the logic is sound. If you have positionals as part of your rotation, then all bosses should allow u to get in the correct positions. If it doesnt then it seems pointless to add in the first place. It's not one boss as a special case, theres many bosses like that. Both in easy and hard content.

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Heartnet

I apologize, I have taken squares response as a representation of said people. I have went to look for where this feedback is coming from since I assume it was from the japanese forum. I had some trouble since google translate wasnt letting me access some pages. I found a thread and realized that the early comments were before launch and the criticism started sprouting later down the thread. I believe and am not 100% positive that this is the source where square is taking the feedback. Here is the link.
Translate: https://forum-square--enix-com.trans...n&_x_tr_pto=sc
Raw link https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...82%B9%E3%83%AC

I dont fully understand your 2nd poiint you're making here. I believe the logic is sound. If you have positionals as part of your rotation, then all bosses should allow u to get in the correct positions. If it doesnt then it seems pointless to add in the first place. It's not one boss as a special case, theres many bosses like that. Both in easy and hard content.

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While this might be what they're going off of (and this isn't meant to argue your position, though I'll say for the record, I'm also in the camp of leaving viper as it is) the JP player base commenting here seems to be encountering the same steep learning curve everyone I've talked to about the job did on day 1 as well as are voicing the stumbling block that the same hot bar spot changes between being a button you press sometimes one the rear of a boss and sometimes on the flank. But it doesn't look like they're asking for those position requirements to be removed, but instead possibly for the buttons to be adjusted in such a way that buttons remain consistent as to if you press them for rear or flank.

As to your other comment... I'll say this as someone who was maining monk since well before truth north existed in the game. It's better to take a potency loss and keep your GDC rolling than to get frustrated because you lost potency due to not hitting from the correct position. This was something monks had to do with some regularity in the Alexander raids as if you didn't keep your attacks going, you'd lose your greased lightning buffs. Sometimes you simply can't hit the position. Sometimes its because a tank is holding a boss with just its nose sticking outside of the poo puddles, sometimes its because they're tanking them in the wall, sometimes its because of where you have to stand to do a mechanic (P11S had this problem for melee jobs) So you take the hit to your potency when the game forces it on you and don't stress it. Only saying this because it sounds like you're having the mentality that if you can't perform the job optimally then the job shouldn't make the ask of you at all, when in reality you simply do your best, and if the game forces you to not be able to do that 100% of the time, you do what you can the rest of it.

I hope as well they don't go through with the changes. True North after Dreadwinder covers 3 positionals which is plenty of time to adjust for the next one. The class was designed to be fast pace, don't go back on it being fast pace.