I am once again asking for better 'textured' hairstyles

(for the purposes of this thread, replace the words 'curly' or 'textured' with 'african-american', 'african', 'ethnic', or whatever depending on how you're feeling at the moment--just know that I'm not talking about the curls you might imagine on, say, a ginger or someone similarly european, even though the game is lacking hair for them as well)

When I play MMOs, I like to build my character's appearances similarly to my own, but as a person with many blacker qualities this can range from semi-annoying but possible to almost demeaning or outright impossible depending on the game. Thankfully we're past the dark ages where half of every MMO had options for skin color amounting to 50 shades of sandy peach and a single shade of 'dark chocolate mixed with charcoal' (looking at you, early-2010s Mabinogi), but sadly we haven't really gotten to that point with hair.

It seems to be a trend among MMOs, especially Korean/Japanese MMOs, to have god-awful options for curly/textured hairstyles. I'm not entirely surprised or disappointed to see that FFXIV falls in line with them... but it would be nice to see a little more variety.

Take, for instance, the afro. The word 'afro' inspires a number of hairstyles that share that general poofiness, from the classic afro, to afro puffs, to the cruddy, coils, shaped up, etc.

Or if you want something with looser hair, you can go for long braids, waves, sisterlocks, twist out, etc., or just let it get frizzy and it works.

So many things you can do with textured hair. So many possibilities. Some examples: https://imgur.com/a/cvjEIV6 https://imgur.com/a/kxsKmBR

Now let's see what XIV has for us.

https://i.imgur.com/2fsLWkw.png

Sigh...

I remember when I was a sprout, resigned to using the pompadour ironically because I couldn't find anything that fit better. And then I heard that there was an afro for sale in the Gold Saucer! Perfect!

No, not perfect. It's quite possibly the ugliest hairstyle in the game (in my opinion), a spherical disco fro smashed over the head like a helmet. Yes, it's a hairstyle that people actually wear in real life, and it can look good... but the implementation of it in XIV 1. is god-awful, 2. was obviously made with the ironic 80s disco theme in mind, and 3. hurts especially when it's the only hairstyle with this texture in the entire game, Saucer and Online Store included.

I know that, due to their more homogeneous culture and racial demographics, Japanese media tends to either pretend black people don't exist or hit them with some nasty (though admittedly funny) stereotypes, but since so much of their playerbase these days is American, wouldn't it be cool if they, y'know... added some customization for those Americans?

Of course, not having these customizations certainly hasn't killed the game for me, nor is it even the biggest thing I'd want to be changed. But since we're redoing all the visuals anyway, it would be nice? Maybe?

I probably should have said something about this months ago...

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

Take, for instance, the afro. The word 'afro' inspires a number of hairstyles that share that general poofiness, from the classic afro, to afro puffs, to the cruddy, coils, shaped up, etc.

Or if you want something with looser hair, you can go for long braids, waves, sisterlocks, twist out, etc., or just let it get frizzy and it works.

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I think the problem there is "Asian MMO", because without any western artists and developers in the art department, that information doesn't get to them. Western MMO's don't fare much better though, and often not only is hair style is a problem, but also the skin color. This game doesn't fare too poorly on skin color varieties, they're just kind of tribe-locked. Doesn't explain why the hair is the way it is though.

If you want any kind of improvement on that front, someone has to go out there and take some photos of actual hair styles that you want to see.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I think the problem there is "Asian MMO", because without any western artists and developers in the art department, that information doesn't get to them. Western MMO's don't fare much better though, and often not only is hair style is a problem, but also the skin color. This game doesn't fare too poorly on skin color varieties, they're just kind of tribe-locked. Doesn't explain why the hair is the way it is though.

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Yah, I mentioned this in the thread, which is why I think it's unlikely that it will ever happen.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If you want any kind of improvement on that front, someone has to go out there and take some photos of actual hair styles that you want to see.

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I planned to include some pictures, but doing so went way over the character limit. Though to be fair, if some dev or artist can't picture in their minds eye what an 'afro' or 'braids' look like, they need to broaden their horizons a bit...

It's about time we get curly hair in this game; variety is what makes ongoing services valuable; netflix as an example.
Elden Ring got it right with their latest curly hairstyles; square enix could learn a lot from Fromsoftware.

Morever, if they add curly hairstyles they should look at 2024 styles, not something from the 19th century or the 1950s.

Frankly, it's 2024. If games like Elden Ring and Dragon's Dogma II can manage to have quite decent black hairstyles, so can this game.
Please, SE! We need the curls and the coils!

I agree with you, they should really improve on that front. Also, they do seem to have an international audience in mind (at least at this point), since they tried to be more culturally accurate in Dawntrail.

It's not much but if you look at the winning entries from the 2023 hair style contest there are two to three styles that might go into that direction ("Natural Curls", "Gold & Locs" and perhaps "The Elegant Twist").
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...686c364efc07a2

As far as I understand, all winning entries will be implemented in the game so those hair styles should come in the future. The question is just how long it'll take.

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Originally Posted by Loggos

I agree with you, they should really improve on that front. Also, they do seem to have an international audience in mind (at least at this point), since they tried to be more culturally accurate in Dawntrail.

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It is this point that made me particularly disappointed in seeing their first choice of implementation from the hairstyle contest winners' selection. Considering that Tural is supposed to be very culturally diverse in-universe, too, I was really hoping one of the first hairstyles they implemented would have been one of the three you mentioned.

They're even unlikely anything I'd have a character switch to myself; it's just that it feels more fair to have them. The vast majority of hairstyles we have are straight, and we got two more straight ones added. The last textured hairstyle they attempted was that dud of an afro from 2015, and they've gotten considerably better at working within their limitations since then.

Well, regardless, I hope they implement those natural/curly hairstyles sooner than later. I only get a little nervous about it since some (well, I think just one? a masculine-looking samurai-styled ponytail?) previous hairstyle contest winners never made it in. It'd be cool if they un-genderlocked that one long dreadlocks hairstyle, too.

Here's hoping.

Granted I'm not black personally, but I have 3B curly hair in rl, so I would love to see more curly hairstyles in the game.

For reference here's a chart:

https://i.gyazo.com/8afd16d3d130e6cd...bb55d80333.jpg

So far we only have type 2 wavy hair in the game (plus the one afro that people only ever use ironically...), so it's about time the range gets expanded to type 3 and 4 curls and coils.

I think there is demand for more curly hairstyles from straight hair people too, considering how popular curling wands, rollers and the likes are :D

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Originally Posted by TheCat

Granted I'm not black personally, but I have 3B curly hair in rl, so I would love to see more curly hairstyles in the game.

For reference here's a chart:

snip

So far we only have type 2 wavy hair in the game (plus the one afro that people only ever use ironically...), so it's about time the range gets expanded to type 3 and 4 curls and coils.

I think there is demand for more curly hairstyles from straight hair people too, considering how popular curling wands, rollers and the likes are :D

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Yeah, it's honestly weird. I know I purposefully excluded more fair-toned people from the OP, but looking at the current selection of hairstyles again, it's weird how there's next to no options for curls, at all. I know it's Final Fantasy and everyone is supposed to either be a Super Saiyan edgelord or a Tifa, but for an MMO with one of the best character creators, it sucks that they're lacking in such an obvious area.

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

when it's the only hairstyle with this texture in the entire game

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It isn't. The one for fem hyurs is actually adorable. Also I think it's extremely cringe for you to jump to the conclusion that a lack of hairstyles is due to the devs being Asian and ignorant and not the simple fact that curly and frizzy textured hair can't easily be done in a way that looks good. It's a pretty common shortcoming in games especially older ones unless the devs really go out of their way.

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Originally Posted by TheCat

Granted I'm not black personally, but I have 3B curly hair in rl, so I would love to see more curly hairstyles in the game.

For reference here's a chart:

https://i.gyazo.com/8afd16d3d130e6cd...bb55d80333.jpg

So far we only have type 2 wavy hair in the game (plus the one afro that people only ever use ironically...), so it's about time the range gets expanded to type 3 and 4 curls and coils.

I think there is demand for more curly hairstyles from straight hair people too, considering how popular curling wands, rollers and the likes are :D

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vey nice I'd like to see all this added, but they are a Asian company and they don't have a diverse population and I suppose their workers don't like curly hair.

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

but for an MMO with one of the best character creators, it sucks that they're lacking in such an obvious area.

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You have to be kidding LOL

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Originally Posted by Len_

Also I think it's extremely cringe for you to jump to the conclusion that a lack of hairstyles is due to the devs being Asian and ignorant

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In my defense, this is something observable in pretty much every Korean or Asian MMO. I'm not faulting them for it, but when it comes to lack of representation, ignorance is usually the first non-malicious reason that comes to mind.

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Originally Posted by Len_

and not the simple fact that curly and frizzy textured hair can't easily be done in a way that looks good. It's a pretty common shortcoming in games especially older ones unless the devs really go out of their way.

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Well,

1. It wouldn't be too hard for them to use their existing texture for Curls with at least reasonably better models. Shorter afros and afro puffs are just a single modeling session away.

2. There are already braids textures in the game, decent cornrows and long thin braids are a half-step away already.

3. Considering they're doing an overhaul of the graphics in 7.0, I don't think the 'older game' argument holds much water. But for what water it does hold, take a look at World of Warcraft, whose current graphics are currently at least several years old, with a number of perfectly serviceable options along this vein. For all the problems WoW has, exclusivity is not one of them (though tbf they still have one foot in that 'dark chocolate mixed with charcoal' puddle mentioned in the OP)

https://i.imgur.com/gKl0R7l.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/kNBqCZD.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/cerXFmX.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/f6CSu7O.png

Not asking for them to model every individual strand of hair.

Im'a have to say naw dawg. Compared to anything else in the game they could be working on that more people would enjoy just....no

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

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Ok so you're up in arms that XIV has ONE fewer hairstyle than WoW that would satisfy your need for """inclusivity"""? It's almost like this is about as much as you can do within the limitations of MMO cartoon graphics. Also black people are not the only ones with curly hair. You really come across as not serious.

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Originally Posted by Mouthbone

You have to be kidding LOL

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Maybe a little. Certainly better than ones I've played.

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Originally Posted by Azureskies01

Im'a have to say naw dawg. Compared to anything else in the game they could be working on that more people would enjoy just....no

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Can't really argue with that, but I find it hard to believe that adding a few textured hairstyles would be that big of a dev time sink.

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Originally Posted by Len_

Ok so you're up in arms that XIV has ONE fewer hairstyle than WoW that would satisfy your need for """inclusivity"""? It's almost like this is about as much as you can do within the limitations of MMO cartoon graphics. Also black people are not the only ones with curly hair. You really come across as not serious.

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The fact that you're getting inflamed about this makes me doubt that you have good intentions with this conversation.

If you can point me towards decent alternatives to the WoW hairstyles I posted that exist in XIV, though, I will eat my bandana and clamp the OP in a spoiler tag.

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Originally Posted by Len_

Ok so you're up in arms that XIV has ONE fewer hairstyle than WoW that would satisfy your need for """inclusivity"""? It's almost like this is about as much as you can do within the limitations of MMO cartoon graphics. Also black people are not the only ones with curly hair. You really come across as not serious.

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Come on, man. You can't be fighting for them to return the original character stylization to the updated graphics, and then come over here and argue that stylized curly hair is too complex for them. I don't understand why this is gettin' you heated.

Black people aren't the only ones with curly hair but they are by far the vast majority who possess 4a-4c styles, which are criminally unrepresented hair textures in nigh everything.

One of the styles like that you even mentioned is locked to fem Midlanders. The dreadlocks are also locked to fem races. You can clearly see OP has a male Roegadyn character, so their only option is that insulting afro. The best they have otherwise is straight hair with some braids.

If they can spend man-hours addressing and fixing the 2B butt armor not being plump enough, they can do this and any other number of requests.

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Originally Posted by Doopliss

Come on, man. You can't be fighting for them to return the original character stylization to the updated graphics, and then come over here and argue that stylized curly hair is too complex for them. I don't understand why this is gettin' you heated.

Black people aren't the only ones with curly hair but they are by far the vast majority who possess 4a-4c styles, which are criminally unrepresented hair textures in nigh everything.

One of the styles like that you even mentioned is locked to fem Midlanders. The dreadlocks are also locked to fem races. You can clearly see OP has a male Roegadyn character, so their only option is that insulting afro. The best they have otherwise is straight hair with some braids.

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I didn't say it was "too complex" for them. I said it's probably the reason why there aren't more hairstyles rather than the devs being Japanese and therefore not wanting to be inclusive. He then posted a Western game example which is really not any better so why even jump to such a conclusion anyway? Also it's not my job to charitably interpret OP's post when he's saying wrong things. You can wish for more curly hairstyles without the "woe is me the devs don't care about black people" histrionics.

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Originally Posted by Doopliss

I really don't mean this with ill will, I'm really just confused.

But how else am I supposed to interpret this...?

Regardless, I don't really care about trying to argue. I'm mostly just surprised 'cause of the threads we've mutually posted in. This just feels like a weird lack of empathy to me.

People can be up in arms and angry about the graphics update (for a reminder, I do agree that the character updates are mostly bogus and the amount of bugs are concerning!) but not the fact they haven't been able to use a hairstyle with the same texture as their own for a decade?

I do agree with you that people shouldn't generalize Japan, Korea, China, etc. That happens a lot here. It's shitty and racist. But in this case I think it's just emotion and noticing a pattern that is, unfortunately, real. I mean, it's also ignorant to ignore that Japan has a really, really intense history of colorism and blackface as well. We still see it even slip through some of their modern media (for the record, I don't think the USA is any better in reality lol).

Like, again, I kind of understand where you're coming from, but please have some empathy here.

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Do you understand where I'm coming from? I do have empathy that's why I correctly pointed out that these type of hairstyles are more difficult to achieve in a way that's creative and looks good in games and it's due to the fact that they require more creative and advanced rendering techniques and not necessarily inherent racism. I don't accept that such editorializing like "the devs are Asian and so I get why they don't care about being inclusive" are justified because you aren't satisfied with the hair in a video game. So no, I'm not gonna not object to that in the name of "empathy." It's ridiculous.

If it would help you understand, imagine if in the benchmark feedback people were saying all the lips look different because the devs are Asian and therefore think ethnic features are ugly and made all the lips thinner. Would that not sound unhinged to you let alone beside the point? I mean maybe not but it does to me.

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Originally Posted by Len_

I didn't say it was "too complex" for them. I said it's probably the reason why there aren't more hairstyles rather than the devs being Japanese and therefore not wanting to be inclusive. He then posted a Western game example which is really not any better so why even jump to such a conclusion anyway? Also it's not my job to charitably interpret OP's post when he's saying wrong things. You can wish for more curly hairstyles without the "woe is me the devs don't care about black people" histrionics.

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I really don't mean this with ill will, I'm really just confused.

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It's almost like this is about as much as you can do within the limitations of MMO cartoon graphics.

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But how else am I supposed to interpret this...?

Regardless, I don't really care about trying to argue. I'm mostly just surprised 'cause of the threads we've mutually posted in. This just feels like a weird lack of empathy to me.

People can be up in arms and angry about the graphics update (for a reminder, I do agree that the character updates are mostly bogus and the amount of bugs are concerning!) but not the fact they haven't been able to use a hairstyle with the same texture as their own for a decade?

I do agree with you that people shouldn't generalize Japan, Korea, China, etc. That happens a lot here. It's shitty and racist. But in this case I think it's just emotion and noticing a pattern that is, unfortunately, real. I mean, it's also ignorant to ignore that Japan has a really, really intense history of colorism and blackface as well. We still see it even slip through some of their modern media (for the record, I don't think the USA is any better in reality lol).

Like, again, I kind of understand where you're coming from, but please have some empathy here.

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Originally Posted by Len_

Do you understand where I'm coming from? I do have empathy that's why I correctly pointed out that these type of hairstyles are more difficult to achieve in a way that's creative and looks good in games and it's due to the fact that they require more creative and advanced rendering techniques and not necessarily inherent racism. I don't accept that such editorializing like "the devs are Asian and so I get why they don't care about being inclusive" are justified because you aren't satisfied with the hair in a video game. So no, I'm not gonna not object to that in the name of "empathy." It's ridiculous.

If it would help you understand, imagine if in the benchmark feedback people were saying all the lips look different because the devs are Asian and therefore think ethnic features are ugly and made all the lips thinner. Would that not sound unhinged to you let alone beside the point? I mean maybe not but it does to me.

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What the OP actually said was:

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I know that, due to their more homogeneous culture and racial demographics, Japanese media tends to either pretend black people don't exist or hit them with some nasty (though admittedly funny) stereotypes, but since so much of their playerbase these days is American, wouldn't it be cool if they, y'know... added some customization for those Americans?

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These are true things about Japan. Just like how there is equally unbecoming and far nastier shit true about Northern America. They did not specify "asians". I hate saying this, but you're the one generalizing people here. They specified Japan and only mentioned things that actually are statistically true that even Japanese activists tend to bemoan and are trying to change. I get how their wording isn't exactly great but, again, come on, man.

The only other thing I can assume is questionable to you that they mentioned is the fact that these hairstyles are specifically absent in a lot of KR/JP MMORPGS. And, yeah, there are a LOT of Korean MMORPGS--I would know, playing a ton of them was my hobby as a kid and a fair bit into adulthood. The only options that frequently showed up in these MMORPGS were the "joke afro". It's not weird to notice this pattern. The only other JP MMORPG I played was PSO2, which also succumbed to this.

I'm not trying to be rude, but you don't need to generalize a criticism of Japan by turning it into a nebulous criticism of "all asian people". It's a little infantilizing, and it's okay to point out that some countries present weird patterns in their media.

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Originally Posted by Len_

I didn't say it was "too complex" for them. I said it's probably the reason why there aren't more hairstyles rather than the devs being Japanese and therefore not wanting to be inclusive. He then posted a Western game example which is really not any better so why even jump to such a conclusion anyway? Also it's not my job to charitably interpret OP's post when he's saying wrong things. You can wish for more curly hairstyles without the "woe is me the devs don't care about black people" histrionics.

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I'd be willing to admit that my comments on Japanese culture were unneeded, but it is certainly not out of the realm of imagination that people like me don't get cosmetics tailored to us because, since we're not the bulk of their target audience, we get overlooked.