Just a thought -- Disciples of the Land

...Do they really have to be exclusively gathering classes?

To be more clear, this came up along the lines of thought of trying to make whatever job a player wanted for themselves, whether it comes by an exact name or not (Tanaka's view or Yoshi's, doesn't really matter). At present, it's possible to produce almost any job out of mixtures of our original classes in Disciples of Magic and War, but I was wondering how much more fittingly this could be done if it also included Disciples of Land. This may be due to a connotative difference; when I think of the term, I don't just think of using the land (gathering) but also almost any and all interactions with it.

For example, a botonist learning about different plants, plantkin, and therein certain enemy weaknesses, how to make more out of certain plant materials, poisons, etc. Or, taking the same note further, new classes like Scholar (paired with a DoM class in the case of a FFXI "Scholar") or Artificer (Mechanist via DoW, Puppetmaster via DoM) or Tamer (Beastmaster and Summoner).

To be honest this idea probably won't fit the model of 'all jobs each stem from one main class', but as the model is little more than prerequisites meant to be fitting to the product job I believe it can change, both in terms of programming and by finding a better fit for the rationale. I'm not saying this will supply it--all this is just a passing thought. Please tell me if my logic is unsound. I ask only that you base it on the theoretical, or the possibilities of the system, rather than assuming limitations due to what is current.

Passive abilities will work too but some lazy bums will probably scream unfair at that.
E.g.
Botanist - +5% dmg on Morbols
Miner - +5% dmg on Golems
Fisher - +5% dmg on Anglers

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Originally Posted by tymora

Passive abilities will work too but some lazy bums will probably scream unfair at that.
E.g.
Botanist - +5% dmg on Morbols
Miner - +5% dmg on Golems
Fisher - +5% dmg on Anglers

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Tbh, though that would help too, and I certainly wouldn't consider it unfair, I'd rather see a little more ingenuity in those bonuses.

Let's try this for example:
- all nodes (assuming we keep the simple node system, still plenty of fun to be had with that) that occur in an area follow a more regional pattern
- this regional pattern follows a sort of elemental basis, as would, therefore, the materials to be mined from these nodes
- the same pattern applies to golems spawing in the area, because they spawn with the composition of that area

So even if you have an online list of monsters telling you that golems will generally be vulnerable to x or y, a miner can tell (just by what the mineral composition in the area) what vulnerabilities he has and to what extent.

Likewise a Botonist might be able to recognize additional parts in vegetation, which can also be additional parts to conglomerate monsters similar to Morbols. Or perhaps the same compositional factors could apply: Morbols around this area tend to be more "braken" which would be more vulnerable to fire but less to physical damage. And you know this because you can actually figure out stuff from the scenery, both through mechanics given to you, and just accuracy between those mechanics and the enviornment (even without UI telling you). Botony should be a study, not just swinging an axe and a scythe at shiny piñata points, also gaining xp not only from gathering. It certainly can have far more of its own unique and interesting quests for it. (Through the Sagahin, the ferry, the fishing guild, the mining guild, and imperial excavations in northern Thanalan, and the many actual mines dotting the deserts, Fishing and Mining certainly could too.)

-- A summoner could recognize and (through another study) animate a kind of ivy to attack a treent vulnerable to it. Or, when faced with a kind of aquatic-plant for whom water is largely connected to health and power (along with some vulnerabilities), a Botonist could immediately realize that he could:
- Saturate it, increasing its health but increasing the damage it takes from concussive blows
- Pierce it while at high health to start decreasing its water content
- Burn it but avoid wasting strong fire attacks until water content is low
- Note that drain will have an equal effect on water content
- Predict the effects of ice magic on it

Class connections and jobs aside, there's quite a bit it can do in combat. Now add increased knowledge of materials to crafting -- allowing new explosives or poisons through alchemy, perfecting smelting, bringing out additional uses of kind of wood, coral, and rare metals -- and it can do a whole lot for a DoH classes too.

I honestly do believe that if you add Scholar (Land), Arcanist (Magic), Artificer (Land), and maybe Scout (War or probably Land), you can cover just about any job in the entire FF arsenal, with potential to do it through your own style much more than before.

Every node used to be unique in the items dropped. We had Oak Trees, Yew Trees...etc, but people snuffed at the idea to need to write things down...lol

So now we have this crap system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tymora

Every node used to be unique in the items dropped. We had Oak Trees, Yew Trees...etc, but people snuffed at the idea to need to write things down...lol

So now we have this crap system.

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Yeah... I guess there had to have been enough people favoring overwhelming simplification for Yoshi to implement it...
Any ideas on how to achieve complexity while appearing simple?

Drops that only drop or have higher chance of dropping when someone in party has DoL leveled will work too.
E.g. Coblyns has chance of dropping better ore if you have a high level Miner.

I remember similar threads about incorporating DoL and DoH into battle content a year before we were given Hamlet!
We must find the OP and throw him in the pit!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tymora

Drops that only drop or have higher chance of dropping when someone in party has DoL leveled will work too.
E.g. Coblyns has chance of dropping better ore if you have a high level Miner.

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The term 'Intelligent Random Number Generator' comes to mind, even if the concept has been considered a bit cheap. It basically just means that the drops, while remaining random, come from a smaller total pool of more useful loot, or that the drop rates are dependent (though generally to a small extent) on who they're dropping for, in order to be more useful. In that way though it would seem less a bonus so much as just getting something you can actually use, in the same way as every other drop in the game...

Nevermind, I like your idea better. You can better identify the components in the corpse that can be used --> you get more of that kind of loot. Smooth and effective.

This is all bringing to mind some smallish but very handy additions to inventory / bag systems...

As a mechanic I read somewhere that disciples of the land are the least popular to play, so any redesign is better. The idea of rolling them into your other classes also isn't bad, gain strength from mining, intelligence from gathering, vitality from logging, etc. in other words make what are some fairly bad mini-games at least give your other classes some stats to work with, I.e. warrior and miner, white Mage and botanist, etc.

Support! DoLs have so much potential, i really hope we aren't the bastard step-child of the classes much longer. But then, i will say that by adding cross-class perks, we're going to end up with a lot of DoLs who dont really give a crap about it, they just want the boost. as someone who actually enjoys the long, tedious, often thankless task of gathering im gonna be bummed having to deal with crowded nodes and pushy DoWs who just want their +5 STR. If there was some kind of cross-class bonus from DoL it should be tied into achievements or special guild quests somehow, not just levels. You gotta earn that bonus dammit!

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

...Do they really have to be exclusively gathering classes?

To be more clear, this came up along the lines of thought of trying to make whatever job a player wanted for themselves, whether it comes by an exact name or not (Tanaka's view or Yoshi's, doesn't really matter). At present, it's possible to produce almost any job out of mixtures of our original classes in Disciples of Magic and War, but I was wondering how much more fittingly this could be done if it also included Disciples of Land. This may be due to a connotative difference; when I think of the term, I don't just think of using the land (gathering) but also almost any and all interactions with it.

For example, a botonist learning about different plants, plantkin, and therein certain enemy weaknesses, how to make more out of certain plant materials, poisons, etc. Or, taking the same note further, new classes like Scholar (paired with a DoM class in the case of a FFXI "Scholar") or Artificer (Mechanist via DoW, Puppetmaster via DoM) or Tamer (Beastmaster and Summoner).

To be honest this idea probably won't fit the model of 'all jobs each stem from one main class', but as the model is little more than prerequisites meant to be fitting to the product job I believe it can change, both in terms of programming and by finding a better fit for the rationale. I'm not saying this will supply it--all this is just a passing thought. Please tell me if my logic is unsound. I ask only that you base it on the theoretical, or the possibilities of the system, rather than assuming limitations due to what is current.

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That would be great, I always thought it would end up like that. But it didn't so far. I hope it does!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akubikumo

Support! DoLs have so much potential, i really hope we aren't the bastard step-child of the classes much longer. But then, i will say that by adding cross-class perks, we're going to end up with a lot of DoLs who dont really give a crap about it, they just want the boost. as someone who actually enjoys the long, tedious, often thankless task of gathering im gonna be bummed having to deal with crowded nodes and pushy DoWs who just want their +5 STR. If there was some kind of cross-class bonus from DoL it should be tied into achievements or special guild quests somehow, not just levels. You gotta earn that bonus dammit!

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It's funny when you go out to camp nine Ives everyone is fishing for that materia. Anyway, I found some trees to log and then Bam! Another player on a chobo harvested them right in front of me... Botany is hard work, but that dye is thanks enough in the marketplace.