SMN Rework/Update Pitch

Let's be honest: Solar Bahamut is purely cosmetic and ultimately redundant because it does the same as Bahamut and Phoenix combined. There is already a Bahamut and there is no need for another one, it's even uncalled for since nobody really asked for it and many people were disappointed because we were all hoping for another DIFFERENT primal to be added, specially when there are already several existing ones to choose from.

If the point is to NOT be redundant and give each Primal a somehow distinct function and identity (or feel) Here's my pitch (or more like my cope):



- Keep Bahamut (the normal one), Garuda, Titan, Ifrit unchanged.

- Ramuh: (Purple jewel color) DMG to all targets when called (same potency as Garuda/Ifrit/Titan openers) BUT with a larger radius like within 8-10 yalms
Gemshine: Single target DoT (like BLM's "Thunder", 1 charge)
Precious Brilliance: Multiple target DoT AOE around caster (like Ramuh does, but with lower potency/duration than the single target cast, 1 charge)
Astral Flow: Refresh DoT OR spread DoT to nearby targets (like SCH's old "Bane" skill used to, 1 charge)


- Shiva: (Light Blue jewel color) Lower DMG (than Garuda/Ifrit/Titan openers) to all targets within 5 yalms when called BUT adding a brief (5-10 seconds) debuff to target(s) DMG dealt.
Gemshine: Medium range cone with low (Garuda potency) DMG to all targets in range BUT with brief (8-10 seconds) slow effect (2 charges)
Precious Brilliance: Wide arc (fore and flanks) low DMG (again, Garuda potency) around caster (similar to BLU's "Glass Dance") with a brief (8-10 seconds) slow effect (shorter range than the single target cone, 2 charges)
Astral Flow: Brief DMG taken reduction to self and party members (8-10 seconds meant only to mitigate the next incoming attack. Kind of like a PLD Sheltron but without the regen effect from Holy Sheltron. 1 charge)


- Leviathan: (Aquamarine jewel color) Medium DMG (than Garuda/Ifrit/Titan openers) to all targets in front of caster when called BUT with a knockback effect.
Gemshine: Long range straight line AoE (Titan potency) with brief (3 seconds) stun effect (just like BLU's "Tatami-gaeshi", 2 charges)
Precious Brilliance: Medium DMG (again, Titan potency) AOE with Hydro Pull effect, can be cast either on self or party member (1 or 2 charges)
Astral Flow: "Veil of the Whorl" effect not only to self but to all party members for around 10 seconds which counters incoming attacks with water DMG and/or a brief (3 seconds) stun effect at enemies when they hit you or any party member within the 10 second Veil effect (just like the BLU spell but party-wide, 1 charge)


- Phoenix: Just upgrade cosmetically to look more Light aspected (like the Rising Phoenix mount) since we already have Ifrit for purely Fire element.

- Physick: Either increase potency (or adjust to lvl while leveling) or remove it altogether because it is useless as it is now. if kept, upgrade cosmetically to be Good King Moggle Mog-themed.

- Resurrection: Upgrade cosmetically to be either Phoenix or Good King Moggle Mog-themed.


***WITH THESE WE GET A NEAT FULL ELEMENTAL WHEEL***

In this setup, at Max lvl, the rotation would go more or less like this:

- Bahamut is still your opener
- The next 3 Primals you pick now become optional, no longer mandatory. You would just need to pick ANY 3 Primals
- Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda keep being your basic damage dealers with the addition of Ramuh as DoT dealer to pick from
- Leviathan and Shiva would be more situational
- Phoenix unlocks not until after using all 6 primal jewels but just after 3 Primals OF YOUR CHOICE. This kinda fixes the monotony of the rotation
- After using Phoenix, ALL the jewels refresh and you can pick another 3 Primals from your 6 options so you don't have to use all of them always. Therefore, you can either choose to go full damage or strategize on whether the situation requires you to use crowd control or mitigation in each 3 Primal jewel window between Bahamut and Phoenix

Basically: Bahamut> Any 3 Primals> Phoenix> Any 3 Primals> Bahamut> and so on.


***ALL OF THESE WOULD NOT BE MEANT TO BE RELEASED AT ONCE OF COURSE, BUT MAYBE WITHIN THE NEXT 2 EXPANSIONS OR SOMETHING***


Yes, yet another SMN dreamer, I know. But I don't think my pitch is too out of the park. All of the skills already exist so there is nothing groundbreaking but it does give some variety by adding defensive/buff/debuff effect skills other than just damage and healing and that makes all of these doable.

What do you think?

Hey, at last arent there 4 Bahamuth, like in FF7.^^

To your summons:

- What is it with the 5 Yalm thing? Siummons are allways by the chara, or? This 5 Yalm thing looks useless, because in most cases, are you away from enemie (aside of solo content).

- Ramuh: Looks like the thunder spell from the Blm. But, how much around the caster would be the second attack? It would need a high yalm number. Otherwise would the skill be useless (had the same problem, like the original Blizzard 2 skill, Aoe around the cvaster, but with just a short range, that it became useless, esspecial, because caster stands away from enemies -even, when the idea and look wasnt bad-).

- SHiva: a corne attack would be nice for the optic. And is something, that as good as no one has (most classes has only bombs/ circle attacks or line attacks). Most important would be the range of the attacks.

Biggest problem with 6 summons, who has there own uses:
How are you able to choice betwéen them?
Increasing the gauge to 6 jewels? Or has a switch skill, like BLM has it, to switch to the second set of gems?

In addition would i think, that one problem of the summoner is, that the summons stay to shortly. The 3 main primals are only for a few seconds there.
Instant of adding new summoners, could they maybe increase the duration the primals stay, and give them more action to do.
One complaiment is, that there skills doesnt feels much differently to all the other spells.

Ok Good points. Here's my reasoning:

Bahamut: Big DMG boi
Garuda: quick DMG dealer, low potency
Titan: Mid speed DMG dealer, Mid potency
Ifrit Slow Dmg dealer, High Potency
Phoenix: DMG and Heal

Then:

Ramuh: DoT DMG dealer (To me, the single target DoT would be just like the BLM thunder spell but the multiple target would be ONLY around the caster but with a decent radius which i would leave to the devs as well as potency. Im focusing more on what it could be like in general, not so much on specific numbers). At max lvl Ramuh would be used mostly as opener because of the DoT.

Shiva: Positional low DMG dealer BUT with Slow Effect AND mitigation. (I'm thinking the DMG from the skill it would do right when you summone her may be lower than other Primals but to compensate, it could come with a DMG debuff to the targets. In my head, the animation for when she pops would be similar to how she does in the Aitiascope boss fight but instead of the giant ice block you need to get behind of, it would be a skill that lowers the target's DMG for a few seconds 5 to 10 and you would use her right before a mob attack hits calling her would be situational and her phase skills would have slow effect and/or DMG debuff for targets.

Leviathan: Im thinking this could be a Crowd Control Primal. His opener could be a Tsunami and have a knockback effect at least on regular mobs and ads and the Precious Brilliance could have a pull effect like BLU's Hydro Pull. Lastly the Astral flow could be the Party-wide Veil of the Whorl effect with counter DMG and/or stun effect when target hits you or the party for around 10ish seconds. So this one would be used mostly for trash mobs or ads.

And yeah, following this logic you would have 6 jewels but you only need ot use 3 OF YOUR CHOICE per window. Additionally, notice Ramuh would have only 1 charge and both Shiva and Levi would have 2 charges at most in order not to make you too op since they would have added effects and party utility with mitigation and crow control respectively.

I honestly don't think we should expect to have all the element anymore, it'd give SMN way too many unique animations and VFX compared to other jobs and be unfair in that regard. It was actually more likely when the egis were their own thing and didn't give SMN specific actions for each one.

That said if they do decide to go with it, I think we can expect there to be a mechanic separating the two "rows" of summons. Like how astro now has astral and umbral pulls, I could see the new summons being unlocked during a specific phase of the rotation. Maybe have them be tied to Solar Bahamut, because obviously they're not gonna get rid of it completely ? I could see it going that way:

Instead of having solar bahamut be the first summon in the rotation for no reason, there could be a new gauge that fills up when you land hits as phoenix, that represents our umbral ether, which when filled would allow us to summon Solar bahamut as the next demi (changing his affiliation, essentially) which would grant us the new gems instead of the old ones. And after using all three you would get access to Lunar Phoenix as the demi, which would fill the gauge with astral ether, turning everything back to how it currently is.

I also assume we'd get an action that fills up the gauge with umbral ether instantly, so that we can match other jobs' burst windows during openers.

But maybe that's too similar to other existing jobs.

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Originally Posted by Zykorberus

***WITH THESE WE GET A NEAT FULL ELEMENTAL WHEEL***

***ALL OF THESE WOULD NOT BE MEANT TO BE RELEASED AT ONCE OF COURSE, BUT MAYBE WITHIN THE NEXT 2 EXPANSIONS OR SOMETHING***

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I’m all for anything that gives me Levi-Shiva-Ramuh as gem summons. I want all 6 elements! However, I’ve seen a couple people now suggest also having astral/umbral phases as well, and I really think that would be a great addition, as well as adding a way to choose which triad of gems you’re going to use without it being clunky.

So we already got Solar Bahamut, which is basically “Hydaelyn/Light”… eventually we’d probably get Lunar Phoenix, aka “Zodiark/Dark.” (Just as a logical progression, who knows what they’d call it, or what model they’ll use, but I’m sure a case could be made for Shinryu as Dark… lol) After that we’d just need a astral/umbral shift button to switch between phases, maybe akin to BLM’s Tranpose. Starting in Umbral would be default, or you could hit the button to start in Astral. So that would make the basic rotation:

Umbral Demi > Umbral Gem Triad > Astral Demi > Astral Gem Triad > Bahamut > Umbral Triad > Phoenix > Astral Triad

Seems rather long, but assuming the 2 minute burst window doesn’t get increased as more new skills are added, you would have some choice as to what phase you want to have for your burst. Because of that, I wouldn’t make the potencies of the second gem set too far off from the original, but make the buffs/debuffs of the summon phase the deciding factor for which one to open with.

Like you said, things would probably need to be added over multiple expansions… but they really need to throw us the other gem set next!

Definitely take a look at the other recent SMN threads though, I can’t remember which one at this point, but someone else put together a really good visual rotation image that probably makes a lot more sense than mine.

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Originally Posted by AlphaXXI

I honestly don\\'t think we should expect to have all the element anymore, it\\'d give SMN way too many unique animations and VFX compared to other jobs and be unfair in that regard. It was actually more likely when the egis were their own thing and didn\\'t give SMN specific actions for each one.

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PCT will have spells with unique animations and VFX for all elements at Level 100. So I’d say SMN is far behind in this. They’ve built a nice template for adding new summons with the gem buttons. So adding the other elements is the easiest way to add new skills without adding a ton of new buttons.

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Originally Posted by Khryseis_Astra

Definitely take a look at the other recent SMN threads though, I can’t remember which one at this point, but someone else put together a really good visual rotation image that probably makes a lot more sense than mine.

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Found the graphic… it is Epikairekakia’s post on this thread:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...499369/?page=3

I think the gem sets may need tweaked to match up with the elemental wheel, but I’m really liking the astral/umbral/full element approach.

I'd like it if they had Leviathan, Garuda, and Titan in one set building white magic to charge up Phoenix, then Ifrit, Ramuh, and Shiva building black magic to charge up Bahamut. Idc how exactly each primal plays beyond that personally.

I'm not a fan of the concept of Solar Bahamut in general. I'd rather them just round out the primal wheel and call it a day. Tbh I don't even think I'd want more summons to be added after that either, unless they reworked how classes worked in general. Otherwise the class would get too convoluted too quick. Maybe just new skills each xpac that fleshed out the existing summons or something.

Eh for several reasons I still do not think adding the other three summons will actually improve the job, aesthetically or mechanically. I think, for at least as long as we have strict 2-minute rotations, it has all the summons it needs to feel like it has a base kit and some extra powerful spells; anything more would actually dilute the "summoner" feel imo (Solar Bahamut is already kind of doing this), as none of the base kit summons would be around long enough to feel consequential. Any notions of introducing the concept of "choice" like how SMN has been represented in every FF game prior, is just ignoring the reality that FFXIV is not designed to accommodate a traditional iteration of SMN.

THAT said, the obvious and elegant solution is just to implement glamours. That would provide plenty of player choice without affecting the job design.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Eh for several reasons I still do not think adding the other three summons will actually improve the job, aesthetically or mechanically.

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This is correct. The core problem with modern SMN is that there is no variation or deviation to it. I mean, there has been a video proving that the entire current SMN kit can be condensed to a single button. And it is, i kid you not, able to do its rotation. If this doesn't look broken, i don't know what is.

Even if they implement every iconic summon monster in the franchise, for as long as it will make use of the current system, it will never be able to change how boring, uninspired, and unrewarding the job is. The only fix to this is to re-introduce the situational needs/opportunity costs to the job... let it have other things to monitor.. i dunno.. like a pet, like they used to.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Eh for several reasons I still do not think adding the other three summons will actually improve the job, aesthetically or mechanically.

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Originally Posted by rawker

This is correct.

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(Snipped down both quotes for character limitations.)

So I get what you two are saying, and it's not entirely wrong, but it needs to be both. Whether people like to admit it or not, aesthetics and class identity are a major aspect of the game, and the latter specifically has been missing from SMN since it's addition. DoT mages are fine as their own thing, but it wasn't a "Final Fantasy Summoner", and the changes the last couple xpacs have been taking steps to making it resemble what it should look like within the games current set parameters for classes. Adding the other three summons will give the class a virtually complete/rounded out identity, and from there you start talking about mechanics and how to make it work in a fun and exciting way. Personally I have some ideas like removing Phoenix and Bahamut from the core rotation, and filling their spots with Fenrir and Carbuncle, then moving Bahamut and Phoenix to a more "major summon" position that you earn via job gauge. And then you can add Alex, Odin, etc to that "major summon" list in future xpacs.

That said though, keep in mind that for the most part no dps really has much variance. SMN might be the worst case scenario when you dissect them all, but all dps have a pretty strict dps rotation that you aren't going to change up if your goal is to do the most dps. It's a problem that has been bothering me more and more as time goes on because classes are starting to feel too samey and frankly it's getting boring. But it's not uniquely a SMN problem by any means. My hope is that if we are sacrificing class overhauls in 7.0 in favor of new boss mechanics, etc, that in 8.0 it becomes the inverse and they hard focus on changing up how classes are played in a major way. Giving them all their unique class identity faithful to the series while also just making them more interesting to play. It's just unfortunate that that'll be at least two years out at this point regardless.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

(Snipped down both quotes for character limitations.)

So I get what you two are saying, and it's not entirely wrong, but it needs to be both. Whether people like to admit it or not, aesthetics and class identity are a major aspect of the game, and the latter specifically has been missing from SMN since it's addition. DoT mages are fine as their own thing, but it wasn't a "Final Fantasy Summoner", and the changes the last couple xpacs have been taking steps to making it resemble what it should look like within the games current set parameters for classes. Adding the other three summons will give the class a virtually complete/rounded out identity, and from there you start talking about mechanics and how to make it work in a fun and exciting way. Personally I have some ideas like removing Phoenix and Bahamut from the core rotation, and filling their spots with Fenrir and Carbuncle, then moving Bahamut and Phoenix to a more "major summon" position that you earn via job gauge. And then you can add Alex, Odin, etc to that "major summon" list in future xpacs.

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I really don't think we can expect there to be so many summons (including Carbucle, those you mentionned add up to 12) unless you completely rework the job again. If all summons change the actions the summoner can use, each with their own unique animations for flair, that need to be adjusted for every race and gender, the amount of work that requires is enormous and it would also be near impossible to balance. Only way this would work is if the player and the summon's actions were completely independent again, or if they massively reused animation, or if all the "big summons" you mention were essentially the same except visually, and that's already an issue with solar bahamut.

It's all really a matter of choosing between more summons or having the ones we currently have do more. And honestly, as much of a fanboy for many summons as I am, it's pretty rounded to have a triad already (think pokémon starters), so adding complexity through those seems more likely to me. I could see other elemental summons being added, up to three, or new upgrades, but we need to have realistic expectations and strive for a balance between cool factor, workload and gameplay.

As much as I want to add more summons, arguably that is not what the job needs. The reason DT SMN landed so flat is not simply because Solar Bahamut is another Bahamut but that it changes so little to nothing.

The rotation is still Demi > Primal Gems x3 > Demi > primal Gems. Whether Solar is every other is immaterial because it adds nothing at all bar a different graphic.

What the job needs is a change to its core mechanic. Whether that is how gems work, or the rotations of each phase either could be good. It fundamentally needs something to build up towards. Something to manage, and more cast times. Heck at this stage I would cast off the differentiation between Demi and Gemstone Primals and have them all linger, just do different things.

If you had to build up to Solar Bahamut, it would have much more impact. But it doesn't. Your suggested change, while would shake things up a little, play into the roles basic issues: The illusion of choice. But as the impact of that choice is so minor, it leaves the job feeling stale.

I do think the rework conceptually is good. I just think that the implementation is problematic.

No job should be "braindead easy" to facilitate learning mechanics.

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Originally Posted by AlphaXXI

I really don't think we can expect there to be so many summons (including Carbucle, those you mentionned add up to 12) unless you completely rework the job again.

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My suggestion at the end with adding Fenrir/Carby + "big summons" would absolutely require a rework, but that is simply the direction I'd like to see them take the class if I had it my way, and not something I would ever actually expect to happen. However, the other three primals would not require a full rework. You're simply replacing round two of Ifrit/Garuda/Titan with them in the same sense Phoenix already replaces Bahamut, and the class would otherwise flow exactly the same for better or worse. Would it largely feel like they are just doing what Ifrit/Garuda/Titan are already doing right now? Honestly, probably, but that's really just the way the game is rn. Having different summons come in doing largely the same, but slightly different things is pretty much like how SAM has 2 diff "1,2,3" combos + a "1,2" just to get different stickers. Or BLM switching from Fire IV to Blizzard IV then back again.

Would it take a lot of time and development to implement? Yeah, just as much as they put in for Endwalker when they added the first three, but honestly my sympathy for that work is a bit low atm since this is all stuff that should have been slowly implemented 10+ years ago. The reality is they waited a long time to course correct this class, and now that they clearly are trying to there is a lot of catching up to do.

I get the arguments that some want the current ones to be fleshed out, and that is something they should do eventually, but thematically having 3 elements + 3 random finishers is not rounded out. Pokemon starters work because they make a "rock, paper, scissors" triangle, but FF has their own established 6 sided version in the elemental wheel, which only half is represented right now. In hindsight they should have started with 3, added the other 3, then worked their way up to Bahamut/Phoenix/etc, but that's not what they did. So it kinda feels like a mess atm.

That said, with the exception of Solar Bahamut feeling like a bit of a set back, I feel like SE has been making great strides in making SMN thematically how it should be within FFXIV. So I def want to give them credit there. I'm hoping that in 8.0 and beyond the class gets fully realized.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

I get the arguments that some want the current ones to be fleshed out, and that is something they should do eventually, but thematically having 3 elements + 3 random finishers is not rounded out. Pokemon starters work because they make a "rock, paper, scissors" triangle, but FF has their own established 6 sided version in the elemental wheel, which only half is represented right now. In hindsight they should have started with 3, added the other 3, then worked their way up to Bahamut/Phoenix/etc, but that's not what they did. So it kinda feels like a mess atm.

That said, with the exception of Solar Bahamut feeling like a bit of a set back, I feel like SE has been making great strides in making SMN thematically how it should be within FFXIV. So I def want to give them credit there. I'm hoping that in 8.0 and beyond the class gets fully realized.

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I agree… the reveal of Solar Bahamut was disappointing to me, not so much because it’s “another Bahamut,” but because they didn’t round out our elements first, to change up the rotation building up to it. Solar Bahamut is essentially “Hydaelyn/Light,” so that’s fine, IF they’re actually building up to an elemental balance.

But for what it is now, SMN actually does feel more like a true “Final Fantasy Summoner,” just woefully incomplete at level 100, especially compared to PCT’s full elemental kit.

Honestly I think a lot of the issues stem from one, the Arcanist into SCH/SMN split, and two, the decision (whenever it was made, but I have a hunch it was before the SMN rework) to add Beastmaster. I know some people miss all the pet actions, but Summoner has not traditionally been a pet class, it’s supposed to summon things! lol Looking at all the FF6 references sneaking into Dawntrail and knowing my SMN can only summon 6 things, and not even the most logical six, is sad. And I did enjoy the whole DOT plus spread of old SMN, but that’s one of those things that was more Arcanist than SMN so I get why they took it out.

I guess to sum up, I feel like the rework was a step in the right direction, but they waited way too long and now SMN is feels like it’s fallen behind the other casters and isn’t complete. I still love the job, but it’s not where it could be or should be at level 100.

I wonder what the reception to Solar would have been if it was straight up Hydaelyn with a filter or something. Sure it'd be spoilery but they included her amano artwork in marketing material for endwalker so it's not like they really care that much. Of course it wouldn't fix the rest of the issues.

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Originally Posted by Khryseis_Astra

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If what you say is correct, then what about FF10, FF11, FF12, FF13... does that mean that the representation of summoner in those games are wrong? I get that some people here hate pets. I get that.. but as this game took inspiration to the pet based summoner, it should have stayed as such and have fixed the underlying issues that made it clunky.

It is very saddening that you drew in people who are into the pet mechanics, only to flip them off.

That's something haters will never understand.

Honestly I kind of wished they had made an entirely different job for a summoner that infuses themselves with primals, call it Esper or something. I.e. the side of summons that behave more like FF6 Terra, FF14 Shiva and FF16. Then there are the other shapeshifter type characters in the series you could use for inspiration. There's a lot you could draw from, instead of this nonsense that's the most diluted possible version of the concept, where wielding the primal mostly just means your Ruin changes color.
It's not a proper pet summoner, not a proper fusion summoner, and not a proper caster summoner. So I still don't understand in what sense it's a "rEaL SumMoneR nOw".

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

I'd like it if they had Leviathan, Garuda, and Titan in one set building white magic to charge up Phoenix, then Ifrit, Ramuh, and Shiva building black magic to charge up Bahamut. Idc how exactly each primal plays beyond that personally.

I'm not a fan of the concept of Solar Bahamut in general. I'd rather them just round out the primal wheel and call it a day. Tbh I don't even think I'd want more summons to be added after that either, unless they reworked how classes worked in general. Otherwise the class would get too convoluted too quick. Maybe just new skills each xpac that fleshed out the existing summons or something.

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Yeah to me Solar Bahamut feels very ast minute "let's just reshade Bahamut and add a heal to make it seem different and say we did care".

And also I agree Bahamut as opener makes no sense, it should be the finisher you charge up to. The gauge should be inversed you should have Garuda/Titan/Ifrit open by default and then after you use then you unlock Bahamut/Phoenix/AND ANOTHER NEW SUMMON since those are the big bois you should look to "earn" to use by building up damage or using the 3 gems for the 3 basic primals FIRST.

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Originally Posted by Khryseis_Astra

I agree… the reveal of Solar Bahamut was disappointing to me, not so much because it’s “another Bahamut,” but because they didn’t round out our elements first, to change up the rotation building up to it. Solar Bahamut is essentially “Hydaelyn/Light,” so that’s fine, IF they’re actually building up to an elemental balance.

But for what it is now, SMN actually does feel more like a true “Final Fantasy Summoner,” just woefully incomplete at level 100, especially compared to PCT’s full elemental kit.

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I even would agree to eliminate the "phase" aspect to it (as well as the egis) and make the summons be spells, each with a different effect/range/targeting/duration and give those spells the Primal animation so it does feel like a summon in order for your rotation to not be eternal but still be able to use and see your character call more summons which is the satisfaction factor if the point is not to "clutter" the job's rotation or whatever.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Honestly I kind of wished they had made an entirely different job for a summoner that infuses themselves with primals, call it Esper or something. I.e. the side of summons that behave more like FF6 Terra, FF14 Shiva and FF16. Then there are the other shapeshifter type characters in the series you could use for inspiration. There's a lot you could draw from, instead of this nonsense that's the most diluted possible version of the concept, where wielding the primal mostly just means your Ruin changes color.
It's not a proper pet summoner, not a proper fusion summoner, and not a proper caster summoner. So I still don't understand in what sense it's a "rEaL SumMoneR nOw".

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Yeah overall it feels unfinished but with cool visuals to mask the incompleteness and the not knowing what to do with it vibe it has.

A simple solution is to change just the skin of the 3 basic primos. Keep the same power and effect, but change the skin only.

So with bahamut you summon the 3 original primos, with phoenix you summon the 3 new ones.

Ifrit > ramuh
Garuda > leviathan
Titan > Shiva

Garuda and leviathan are close in visual terms, tornado and wind vortex > tornado and water vortex.

Titan and shiva > replace the stone attack visual with ice

Ifrit and ramuh > change fire explosions to lightning

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Originally Posted by tribo

A simple solution is to change just the skin of the 3 basic primos. Keep the same power and effect, but change the skin only.

So with bahamut you summon the 3 original primos, with phoenix you summon the 3 new ones.

Ifrit > ramuh
Garuda > leviathan
Titan > Shiva

Garuda and leviathan are close in visual terms, tornado and wind vortex > tornado and water vortex.

Titan and shiva > replace the stone attack visual with ice

Ifrit and ramuh > change fire explosions to lightning

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That's kind of boring.
If they were to reuse player animations and use the same casting pattern, the potency and effects would need to change, because otherwise what's even the point ? Simply having more summons doesn't add anything if they don't do anything special with them.

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Originally Posted by tribo

A simple solution is to change just the skin of the 3 basic primos. Keep the same power and effect, but change the skin only.

So with bahamut you summon the 3 original primos, with phoenix you summon the 3 new ones.

Ifrit > ramuh
Garuda > leviathan
Titan > Shiva

Garuda and leviathan are close in visual terms, tornado and wind vortex > tornado and water vortex.

Titan and shiva > replace the stone attack visual with ice

Ifrit and ramuh > change fire explosions to lightning

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I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

If more primals are to be added but will not have anything unique to them other than a mere button/animation swap, it will accomplish nothing. The joy it will bring for seeing a new animation will not last you for approximately 2 years.

With EW BLM, even though you were still doing Blizzard 1/Fire 1 as part of your rotation, you have to at least do something to unlock Paradox. There's nothing like that with EW SMN... If each Primal had a specialization, like what the egis used to, then we're talking.. and with DT coming along, I hope the macro used to do the 1-button SMN rotation can fit Solar Bahamut so it will not be ruined so it will serve as a reminder to whoever thought of the rework be haunted of the atrocity they have made.

With a system where all skills replace others as you level, the removal of physical pets (including auto-attacks), and an incredible oversimplification, the SMN is probably the worst job in the game to play. It's boring, it's simple, and totally unrewarding.

FFXI's SMN is absolutely much, much better than this.

Quite honestly, i'm considering to play ff11 for what they have done to SMN and SCH. Though 11's SCH did not have a pet to manage, it does not have Seraphsim

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Originally Posted by rawker

haunted of the atrocity they have made.

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Damn, you'd think they killed your puppy. I agree otherwise but geez...

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Originally Posted by rawker

If what you say is correct, then what about FF10, FF11, FF12, FF13... does that mean that the representation of summoner in those games are wrong? I get that some people here hate pets. I get that.. but as this game took inspiration to the pet based summoner, it should have stayed as such and have fixed the underlying issues that made it clunky.

It is very saddening that you drew in people who are into the pet mechanics, only to flip them off.

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Maybe I should’ve said “old school FF Summoner” then. lol For me, Carbuncle was one out of like what? 20 or 30 things I could summon? And now I get 5, and in DT, 6. While I’d love it to do more, in this world it’s more like a focus of our aetheric energy, not so much a pet. And I definitely don’t want to have to micromanage its every move.

I’m really thinking they were already planning Beastmaster when they did SMN’s rework. In their mind, it was probably “some of them might be disappointed, but we’re going to give them an entire class built around pet management and make it better!” But I get that it being a limited class makes it less appealing to a lot of people.

Let's see.. aside from SMN, there's MCH with their Automaton Queen, DRK with Esteem..

Using your logic about Beastmaster, then MCH and DRK should lose their pets

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Originally Posted by rawker

Let's see.. aside from SMN, there's MCH with their Automaton Queen, DRK with Esteem..

Using your logic about Beastmaster, then MCH and DRK should lose their pets

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I mean... Bahamut and Phoenix are as much pets as Queen and Esteem, your comparison doesn't really work.

The point I am trying to make was that removing every job that has a pet just to make way for Beastmaster is problematic.

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Originally Posted by rawker

The point I am trying to make was that removing every job that has a pet just to make way for Beastmaster is problematic.

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And that's obviously not what they're doing since as you said these jobs get to keep them, just as SMN still has Bahamut and Phoenix.
Pretty sure what Khryseis_Astra meant is that they're making beastmaster itself as a response to the changes, not chanding jobs to give it a niche. It's the opposite process.

Still isn't justifiable to remove the pet management entirely from the job when they had all the time to fix said issues.