[DT Benchmark] Specific Feedback re: Mouth/Lip Color Updated Shapes

(scroll down for screenshots if you don't want an essay)

Before I describe the issue, I'd like to suggest a solution:

I propose implementing a new customization option for Lip Color Shape.

Where applicable, one of the new options for Lip Color Shape would be close to how lip color appeared in 6.58.

By "lip color shape" I mean the specific application of lipstick/gloss/tint to the lips, e.g. whether it precisely covers the lip geometry or if it deviates by covering less or more. See screenshots for what I mean.

Why?

Many races/faces/mouths have a substantially different appearance in DT when lip color is used due to adjustments in how lip color is applied. This very minor change nonetheless leads to an "uncanny" appearance change for some WoLs that we've had for years.

Changing lip color shape would also be accessible from the aesthetician and so not require a fantasia use. It also wouldn't require devs to make any changes to the 3D models.

This change would allow for new ways to apply lip color that haven't been possible before and enable players to go further in customizing their WoLs. For example, a lip color shape option could allow applying lip color to only the top or bottom lip.

Shouldn't they just adjust lips to all look how they used to?

No, I specifically am not suggesting that the dev team attempt to adjust the existing single shape for lip color, much less actual mouth geometry, since such a feature obviously can't be implemented for quite some time and we'll all be used to these updates by then.

That said, I think there are some individual instances where lip makeup application is so different that changing it ASAP may be for the better.

Screenshots

DT is on the left, 6.58 on the right. I tested most race+gender combos except lala and hroth. Most race+gender combos except M Roe had at least one face whose lip color shape seemed to change substantially.

I mostly tried to use pale skin and dark black lip color.

Viera
https://i.imgur.com/0sDAsJ3.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/5lu04yc.jpeg

For both male and female Viera, the lower lip appears to be rounded out. For F this results in a plumper lower lip and a wider apparent angle at the corner of the mouth. For M this makes their mouths appear substantially more effeminate.

Miqote
https://i.imgur.com/jwCrC1f.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/rYvAXz3.jpeg

The rounded lower lip appears on Miqote as well, though it's more noticeable on the M. For F she used to have something of a smirk or :3 face; now she just looks pissed/serious.

Elezen
https://i.imgur.com/o61AH9e.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/JhJGiGz.jpeg

F has the rounded out lower lip that I'm seeing a lot, in addition to a very thinned upper lip. M's seems to cover the entire lip up to the corners rather than stop short.

Highlander
https://i.imgur.com/TdefOAW.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/flQupTP.jpeg

I quite like the changes to F, though again there's a rounded out lower lip. M's has been smoothed out and the lower lip fattened.

Au Ra
https://i.imgur.com/oWbx8V5.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/kVz4oqn.jpeg

M was the only one where I had to use dark skin and light lip color; pale+black was almost invisible... Anyway, again, rounded bottom, and the top outlines the cupid's bow a lot more. For F, her bottom lip appears much fatter and she looks like she's "puckering up" -- I think what happened was in 6.58 the lip color application didn't reach all the way to the "fold" of the lower lip, while in DT it does.

Midlander
https://i.imgur.com/hCBweLG.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/k8epIk0.jpeg

Both once again have a rounded lower lip, and both also have thinner upper lip color.

Femroe
https://i.imgur.com/pG9mr0z.jpeg

THIS is why I made this thread! Just look at my girl! :(

It's actually more obvious at an oblique angle but she looks older now (or "more mature" you could say). The lower lip is significantly rounded off. The upper lip seems to have a sharper cupid's bow -- some of the color seems to extend beyond the fold at the points. I wouldn't mind this as an option but I'd like the old shape back.

I'll say that while I'm not sure if simply changing where the lipstick applies on the face would help with it, but what I like the most about your screenshots is how very good they are at showing how there was quite the change in lip shape for everyone.

It's very clear all the shapes changed significantly and altered the expression. Female Miqo'te as you pointed out is a very big example in how her expression changed entirely. But F Au Ra clearly have the lower lips a lot more full, and many other instances of the shape having been altered.

Male Au Ra gives the most clear example of the low resolution of the texture, but it also shows they had no cupid's bow, while the updated was given one.

As a side note, it also is a good example of what people mean by how the Black Hair now looks grey...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caesius

Screenshots

DT is on the left, 6.58 on the right. I tested most race+gender combos except lala and hroth. Most race+gender combos except M Roe had at least one face whose lip color shape seemed to change substantially.

I mostly tried to use pale skin and dark black lip color.

Viera
https://i.imgur.com/0sDAsJ3.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/5lu04yc.jpeg

For both male and female Viera, the lower lip appears to be rounded out. For F this results in a plumper lower lip and a wider apparent angle at the corner of the mouth. For M this makes their mouths appear substantially more effeminate.

Miqote
https://i.imgur.com/jwCrC1f.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/rYvAXz3.jpeg

The rounded lower lip appears on Miqote as well, though it's more noticeable on the M. For F she used to have something of a smirk or :3 face; now she just looks pissed/serious.

Elezen
https://i.imgur.com/o61AH9e.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/JhJGiGz.jpeg

F has the rounded out lower lip that I'm seeing a lot, in addition to a very thinned upper lip. M's seems to cover the entire lip up to the corners rather than stop short.

Highlander
https://i.imgur.com/TdefOAW.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/flQupTP.jpeg

I quite like the changes to F, though again there's a rounded out lower lip. M's has been smoothed out and the lower lip fattened.

Au Ra
https://i.imgur.com/oWbx8V5.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/kVz4oqn.jpeg

M was the only one where I had to use dark skin and light lip color; pale+black was almost invisible... Anyway, again, rounded bottom, and the top outlines the cupid's bow a lot more. For F, her bottom lip appears much fatter and she looks like she's "puckering up" -- I think what happened was in 6.58 the lip color application didn't reach all the way to the "fold" of the lower lip, while in DT it does.

Midlander
https://i.imgur.com/hCBweLG.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/k8epIk0.jpeg

Both once again have a rounded lower lip, and both also have thinner upper lip color.

Femroe
https://i.imgur.com/pG9mr0z.jpeg

THIS is why I made this thread! Just look at my girl! :(

It's actually more obvious at an oblique angle but she looks older now (or "more mature" you could say). The lower lip is significantly rounded off. The upper lip seems to have a sharper cupid's bow -- some of the color seems to extend beyond the fold at the points. I wouldn't mind this as an option but I'd like the old shape back.

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No lalafel??!

I really don't think the underlying mouth shape actually changed for anyone. It's a really subtle thing but it demonstrates just how much tiny changes in lip makeup application can affect someone's appearance.

Of course it's also a strong argument for implementing more customization options for lip makeup, not just for shape but also gloss and "metallicity" (like in Baldur's Gate 3) but that's getting ahead of ourselves :)

Here's that F Au Ra again without makeup to demonstrate. I believe the most prominent difference is that there used to be some shading on the upper lip to give the appearance of folds; that's gone now. But that was a texture trick, not an actual difference in shape.

https://i.imgur.com/6UQRHia.jpeg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

No lalafel??!

---

lala mouths are SO SMALL that I had trouble describing what actually changed :(

But here they are anyway, in all their tuber-y goodness

https://i.imgur.com/mpnzUle.jpeg

I hope you don't mind, Caesius, but I went through your pictures and outlined the shape in both comparisons, in hopes that it will show clearer what the issue is.

And I also want to say in advance, it's very, very clear how much the textures improved, and the details do look incredible. It's clear the Dev team is putting a lot of work into this, and this comment is not meant to undermine that. But to help address why people still feel like something is "Off" and different about their characters.

Lips give a lot of personality to the face, and their shapes have clearly been altered and modified.

I apologize in advance that this got large.

https://i.imgur.com/Z0E5g4D.jpeg

Now, I've been noticing two main things in how the lips where changed:
The lips have all been extended to the very corners of the mouth. Which is something that does not always happen, not to mention it changes the expression of the face.

The most clear examples are Male Viera, Miqo'te, and Elezen, but that is noticeable on most faces.
Here, with the outline on the picture itself, you can see how the lips now extend to the very corner of the mouth, altering the original shape.
https://i.imgur.com/sa7Xh91.jpeg

Though that is far from the only issue. Some cases the lip shape was altered almost completely.
The Female Au Ra is an example of how the lip is now much more Full, rounded, and heart shaped.
https://i.imgur.com/CF1xPat.jpeg


Honestly, looking through all of them, what saddens me the most is how the shapes have become generic, and uninteresting. They have lost almost all, if not all, of their uniqueness, and personality. Especially in the Female Models, they look very generic, doll-like, and standardized, though the same is true across all faces.

It does feel a bit like they got a little "Over-Zealous" rounding out the shapes, and in turn, losing much of their uniqueness.

I do hope this helps showcase the issue people are having and how the shape itself has been altered, and why people are upset over it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caesius

lala mouths are SO SMALL that I had trouble describing what actually changed :(

But here they are anyway, in all their tuber-y goodness

https://i.imgur.com/mpnzUle.jpeg

---

I saw this afterwards, but made a similar comparison with the power of extreme zoom-in:
https://i.imgur.com/JYZjaqB.jpeg

What I noticed is the upper lip was significantly made smaller, and the lower lip a little larger.
Which, unfortunately, makes it look like a tiny version of th exact same lip everyone else has, and furthers my impression that the lips were homogenized and made generic-looking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kanehon

I hope you don't mind, Caesius, but I went through your pictures and outlined the shape in both comparisons, in hopes that it will show clearer what the issue is.

And I also want to say in advance, it's very, very clear how much the textures improved, and the details do look incredible. It's clear the Dev team is putting a lot of work into this, and this comment is not meant to undermine that. But to help address why people still feel like something is "Off" and different about their characters.

Lips give a lot of personality to the face, and their shapes have clearly been altered and modified.

I apologize in advance that this got large.

https://i.imgur.com/Z0E5g4D.jpeg

Now, I've been noticing two main things in how the lips where changed:
The lips have all been extended to the very corners of the mouth. Which is something that does not always happen, not to mention it changes the expression of the face.

The most clear examples are Male Viera, Miqo'te, and Elezen, but that is noticeable on most faces.
Here, with the outline on the picture itself, you can see how the lips now extend to the very corner of the mouth, altering the original shape.
https://i.imgur.com/sa7Xh91.jpeg

Though that is far from the only issue. Some cases the lip shape was altered almost completely.
The Female Au Ra is an example of how the lip is now much more Full, rounded, and heart shaped.
https://i.imgur.com/CF1xPat.jpeg


Honestly, looking through all of them, what saddens me the most is how the shapes have become generic, and uninteresting. They have lost almost all, if not all, of their uniqueness, and personality. Especially in the Female Models, they look very generic, doll-like, and standardized, though the same is true across all faces.

It does feel a bit like they got a little "Over-Zealous" rounding out the shapes, and in turn, losing much of their uniqueness.

I do hope this helps showcase the issue people are having and how the shape itself has been altered, and why people are upset over it.

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Dawntrail label looks like a D + which sounds about right XD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by programcanaan

Dawntrail label looks like a D + which sounds about right XD

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My handwritting is bad, but it was faster than making Proper Text lmao

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caesius

I really don't think the underlying mouth shape actually changed for anyone. It's a really subtle thing but it demonstrates just how much tiny changes in lip makeup application can affect someone's appearance.

Of course it's also a strong argument for implementing more customization options for lip makeup, not just for shape but also gloss and "metallicity" (like in Baldur's Gate 3) but that's getting ahead of ourselves :)

Here's that F Au Ra again without makeup to demonstrate. I believe the most prominent difference is that there used to be some shading on the upper lip to give the appearance of folds; that's gone now. But that was a texture trick, not an actual difference in shape.

https://i.imgur.com/6UQRHia.jpeg

---

it might be purely a texture change, indeed, but that does not mean that the Apparent shape that we perceive was not altered in the process. Besides the middle shading, the corner of the upper lips was given the appearance of being made smaller. Even if the underlying model remained the same, which we cannot tell unless we are comparing a raw 3D model and its polygons, what it Looks like is what impact us.

On a unrelated note, but the scales on the chest, almost out of view of that picture, are a lot Thinner in width too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kanehon

The lips have all been extended to the very corners of the mouth. Which is something that does not always happen, not to mention it changes the expression of the face.

---

Yup, the lower lip especially now seems to always be a corner-to-corner arch of uniform curvature that extends to the very bottom edge of the lip. Additionally, getting rid of upper lip fold textures on F Au Ra and M Viera made their lips appear much more smooth and flat than before, removing the :3 expression. That fold was even prominent enough on F Au Ra for you to trace it out.

Again, though, it's the same underlying lip geometry! They can make everyone happy if they just give us MORE OPTIONS :D

So, I don't know what'd need to happen for the dev team to see this, but between the screenshots and diagrams on the first page I think there's enough proof of a specific, widespread issue that in many cases result in a change to a WoL's appearance that players wouldn't want. The problem is that it's so subtle that most players probably wouldn't spot it and just complain that it "looks off."

The catch-all complaint is that lip makeup all looks the same now -- it lacks the per-race "personality" that it used to have. But there's many individual instances where a WoL's appearance changes wildly, e.g. F Au Ra face 4.

Probably the only way for this to be seen though is to go viral on JP Twitter. I have no SM presence and I think the most effect I've ever had on game development was when I very rudely complained that the cockpit view in the Dodge Challenger made me feel like a grandma in Forza 5.

Anyway, feel free to signal boost by reposting the screenshots and diagrams, or even posting side-by-side comparisons of your own WoL.

Unpopular opinion but I like the new lip textures :< I#d be upset if they reverted it.

Do you mean the gloss and actual texture/"look and feel" or are you talking about the shape as well?

I'm not suggesting reverting the lip gloss/textures but just providing an option to have it look closer to the original shape (though I do think in some cases a touch-up is urgently needed). See the series of outlines on the previous page.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caesius

e.g. whether it precisely covers the lip geometry or if it deviates by covering less or more.

---

Already posted this in the updated benchmark thread but it fits into the discussion here too:

https://i.imgur.com/gpKg7bR.png

Femroe face 2's (the same one you use in your screenshot) lip textures don't even line up. The normal map (the faux geometry, essentially) has the upper lip almost a completely straight line with a... bizarrely stiff and straight philtrum, while the diffuse map (the colour texture) has a very exaggerated cupid's bow. I know the colour of a person's lips don't always reach the edge of the physical lip, but it certainly doesn't tend to extend beyond it!

Now I don't use lipstick on any of my characters (I think I hated the way it was obnoxiously shiny, so maybe it's something I should look into with the new graphics), but bare-lipped I really miss how the lip colour faded naturally into the skintone on the bottom lip and towards the corners of the mouth - that felt a lot more natural to me. It also appears (at least on my skintone) that they've altered the colour of the lips... We all know the texture has been changed to make them more glossy than the skin as well as defined creases being added, but all of that combined with the more uniform colour and the more defined edge makes it look like I've got lipstick on when I don't. P: I genuinely went back and checked my character data multiple times for lipstick because it looked so... lipstick-y.

Putting the lipstick so far into the corners of the mouth strikes me as a very bizarre decision, particularly on fem highlanders. I certainly wouldn't put my lipstick that far irl. For the most part they just look like that awful overdrawn style that was a thing a few years back which, as you said, vastly changes the lip shape for most of the faces.

I did always tend to notice that femroe face 2 had lipstick around the corners of the mouth, which looked kinda weird, but there was still an interesting, defined shape to it, at least compared to the new lipstick.

But now that you mention it, I think the impression I got that the lipstick extends beyond the points of the cupid's bow is wrong. Rather it's the opposite; it doesn't even reach the points which is why there's a slight color change right at the tips.

I'm kinda wondering if they made the new lipstick in a single universal shape and then stretched it to fit to the mouth corners and the central edges of the lips.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caesius

I really don't think the underlying mouth shape actually changed for anyone.

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They did. At least mine did. A lot.
F Moon Miqo'te, face 4

https://i.imgur.com/MXQNH50.gif
https://i.imgur.com/Ff2vGH2.gif
They really flattened everything and closed her lip part to hide the lip gap for no reason. I very much dislike these changes. They gave the same treatment to her nose and eyes too. Made her nose straighter and thinner with smaller nostrils. Made her eyes more rounded and soft. It really feels like they did a cosmetic surgery pass and I don't know why they decided to do this. I loved my characters features just how they were.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by noumen0nn

https://imgur.com/VmM5YmJ.jpghttps://imgur.com/AXhgTBt.jpg

And the lips (type 4). I don't even know what to say. The way the lipstick is drawn has changed completely, making the lips seem like a drastically different shape; she looks like her lips are permanently pursed. Her philtrum is much thinner, and her cupid's bow is an entirely different shape, even without the lipstick.

I know the devs worked hard improving the benchmark, but I cannot find it in my heart to thank them right now. I can't stand looking at my WoL in the benchmark, and I'm dreading the release of Dawntrail when I should be getting excited for it.

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You can see pretty clearly in my image that the shape of the actual lips themselves has changed, but regardless I think you are right and the lipstick is a MUCH bigger issue. Hyur midlander F face 1 in particular looks like they're sucking in their lips or doing a duckface.

I think the rounded lower lip is more a result of lighting/shading on most faces, but I can attest that face 3 M Miqo has a different mouth shape all around.

https://imgur.com/i5JjnrP.jpg

Above current game, below DT.

This is mouth 4, which as one can see already had significant shading beneath the lower lip, however the lower lip is thinner now. The upper lip has gotten slightly longer and the space between the Cupid’s bow is smaller. This detracts from the sort of puckered, cat-like shape of the mouth that I loved. I understand smoothing the sharp points of the upper lip, but the whole shape changing I really hate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

Unpopular opinion but I like the new lip textures :< I#d be upset if they reverted it.

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the Textures are amazing, and there is much detail in the lips too, and I love it.

But they changed the shape of the lips, which changed how characters look and their expressions. And I hope they will keep revisiting it to keep it closer to the original look even with the high quality and improved textures

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

Unpopular opinion but I like the new lip textures :< I#d be upset if they reverted it.

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I don’t think the textures are an unpopular opinion. They’re gorgeous, my boy’s lips look so soft now! I love them. But the shape is not the shape I fell in love with and really changes his expression.

So, just for the sake of having a thorough record, I took screenshots of M roe and M lala as well. I "would" test every face and mouth combo across every race but that would be insane.

I didn't notice much of a difference for M Roe when I tried it the first time around, but now that I know what to look for it's more obvious. I don't have an issue with the lip color updates on this face, but it does confirm that the specific pattern of changes are universal:

• The application of lip color is now a single universal shape or "mask" that applies identically to all races and faces.
• The mask is stretched horizonally to the very corners of the mouth and vertically to the very edge of the lip.

Dawntrail benchmark on the left.

https://i.imgur.com/fBRFupy.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/8T386at.jpeg

By the way, if anyone wants to check what their character used to look like, you might still be able to use the Endwalker benchmark, though you may have to download it from a third party since it seems Square have replaced it with the Dawntrail benchmark entirely.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caesius

By the way, if anyone wants to check what their character used to look like, you might still be able to use the Endwalker benchmark, though you may have to download it from a third party since it seems Square have replaced it with the Dawntrail benchmark entirely.

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Techpowerup still has all the benchmarks.

Just my imagination but I feel like femroe faces lost a bit of the wickedness and turned a little more. . .domesticated. Not a good thing in my book. As well, for all the races, there seems to be a noticeable loss of luster in the eyes.

Hi lander F however. . . “. . .hold my beer.” Me: “Absolutely.”

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vandi

Just my imagination but I feel like femroe faces lost a bit of the wickedness and turned a little more. . .domesticated. Not a good thing in my book.

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Probably not your imagination, and I think it's largely due to their lip makeup, thus this thread. However, it does look like their eyebrows and eyeliner have also lost a bit of definition/thickness, which is also true for a lot of faces/races.

Quote:

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As well, for all the races, there seems to be a noticeable loss of luster in the eyes.

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I think this is due to catchlights no longer being a static, always-on application and now dependent on lighting+environment. You may be able to get a stronger sparkle in the eye with precise lighting, but that's so hard to do already....

Quote:

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Hi lander F however. . . “. . .hold my beer.” Me: “Absolutely.”

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Agreed :P

this is exactly what I wanted to express too! I think the team that worked on faces didnt understand very well what makes a face unique and an expression important...

Wanted to add to this as I feel the same way, the lips along with the eyes are the only stand-out features that make my characters feel completely strange and unfamiliar every time I look at them. It sounds silly but they look like they were swapped with a sadder, less excited impersonator.

https://i.imgur.com/veYqR86.png
https://i.imgur.com/eWYP8S7.png

Worth noting, I think, that in order for this lip color solution to work, the lip textures in both the normal and diffuse maps would need to be stripped. Lip color, as it currently exists, is a semi-transparent layer that sits on top, without hiding the normal or diffuse textures. The discrepancy with the diffuse map would be the most obvious to the naked eye, but the normal map would also have glaring discrepancies depending on lighting conditions. I'm not sure there's an elegant (and resource-efficient) solution to that problem without at least partially back-pedaling on the graphics update (by painting a diffuse-like texture onto the lip color overlay, etc., rather than allowing the normal map to do its current job, which looks more "real"), at least as it pertains to characters. Which some people do clearly want, to be fair, but just as many don't.

Honestly, as someone who is not a 3D modeler, it does not look to me like it should be terribly complicated to add additional options for lip color shape.

It's plainly obvious that currently they apply the lip color in exactly the same way on every single face, with what seems like four "anchor points" at the very corners of the mouth and the very edge of the central lip folds.

So let's say all they defined were the anchor points and the lip color is then applied automatically rather than by hand. In that case, they could add customization options where the anchor points are simply moved by transformation functions, or even where the shape of the lip color application itself is transformed with e.g. a more dynamic curvature on the lower lip.

But if this was indeed a process that took a lot of work by hand then I'm even more confused as to how it came out like this. In another thread I mentioned that F Au Ra face 2 mouth 1 looks like its mouth geometry was adjusted to fit the lip color shape rather than the reverse. Like, sure, the old mouth was wide and it would've looked silly to have the new makeup go from corner to corner. But then why was the constraint that the "anchor points" always have to be at the mouth corners done anyway?

They implemented the graphical update in such a way that they had to butcher certain faces on account of the constraints they put in place. If they did not also put in some framework to ease the addition of new customization options then in my view it was simply released in an unfinished state.