quest design

one thing coming up all the time is how boring ff14s quest design is. killing a few mobs there, walking back and forth and killing a few enemies again. with a lot of cutscenes in between.
we have dungeons and later they introduced a few more things like playing another character, aim at certain targets, walk around with npc's and follow them in secret. and then that famous quest as a garlean soldier.
they all bring a bit of variety but it doesnt feel like the players are overly keen on any of them. rather the opposit.

but what do player imagine as better quest design?

the mmos i played are metin2, aion, swtor, eso and ff14. i dont think in any of these games were better quest designs.

we had to kill like 20-50 enemies for a single quest. in aion sometimes even more. swtor pushed the killing into bonus quests but you still wanted the exp from them, so it was the same.
i enjoyed questing in eso a lot, which i think is because of the world and not the quests themselves.

so... what are better quest designs?

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a bit of variety but it doesnt feel like the players are overly keen on any of them. rather the opposit.

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There was a post about these quests, and it seems to me that the majority appreciated the variety introduced. Personally, they're my favourite, so I hope they keep them.

As for the other quests (the more classic ones: cutscene; go to X; talk to Y; maybe kill 2 mobs; then cutscene)... I'm more critical. Oh, I don't expect SE to revolutionise the questing model. On the other hand, I do think that they'd sincerely benefit from stopping relying on excessive cinematics that slow down the pace of the game. Endwalker took this trend to the extreme, so much so that you can sometimes find yourself spending almost an hour in cinematics.

It seems to me that there are more interesting (and more attractive) ways of extending the quest. Introduce bonus objectives, such as collecting items to fill your compendium; and generally multiply the number of mobs to kill by making the open world a little less accessible. But right now, the design that traps the player in an almost interrupted cinematic needs to be reviewed - and I admit that, if this pace continues at DT, I'm probably going to grumble a bit like a Karen who hasn't had her ice cream.

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true, nowadays you mostly walk from cutscene to cutscene with barely any enemies to kill (or doing other stuff), except the ones in the occasional duty.

They could obviously take inspiration from some solo games, which can for some of them have more production value cranked around their story quests (dynamic filming and screen compositing, storyboarding, action cutscenes, etc), but that obviously requires a lot more budget to achieve. For example I felt I was almost playing another game when I reached the epilogue of 5.3 due to the whole care they added with all those motion capture sequences in Mor Dhona and the Garlean Throne Room.

When it comes to gameplay sections, the ninja job quests or in from the cold are good examples of what you can do to shake things up. Another game series that is very good at this is Nier, swapping between platformers, railshooters, standard action gameplay, etc.

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Originally Posted by Valence

They could obviously take inspiration from some solo games, which can for some of them have more production value cranked around their story quests (dynamic filming and screen compositing, storyboarding, action cutscenes, etc), but that obviously requires a lot more budget to achieve. For example I felt I was almost playing another game when I reached the epilogue of 5.3 due to the whole care they added with all those motion capture sequences in Mor Dhona and the Garlean Throne Room.

When it comes to gameplay sections, the ninja job quests or in from the cold are good examples of what you can do to shake things up. Another game series that is very good at this is Nier, swapping between platformers, railshooters, standard action gameplay, etc.

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While I agree with you about the appeal of these quests, is it a good idea to introduce them in an mmorpg? Most of the time, you'd need to set up personal instances.

That's a fair point and I don't want to see Raubahn savage ever again.

When I started playing this game, I was immediately struck by the fact it asked me to kill only 3 enemies for a quest. It made me feel like finally an MMORPG had been developed by someone who gets it. That killing 100 enemies is tedious.

So, although it may not be the best quest design, it is certainly not the worst when so many other games will have you farming easy enemies for hours to complete quests which is a whole lot less waste of time than, you know, actually progressing the storyline.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

When I started playing this game, I was immediately struck by the fact it asked me to kill only 3 enemies for a quest. It made me feel like finally an MMORPG had been developed by someone who gets it. That killing 100 enemies is tedious.

So, although it may not be the best quest design, it is certainly not the worst when so many other games will have you farming easy enemies for hours to complete quests which is a whole lot less waste of time than, you know, actually progressing the storyline.

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To each their own, because I HATE FFXIV quest design. FFXIV might be progressing more story per quest than other MMOs, but it doesn't feel like I'm playing an actual game. And to be honest because of how their job design is tied so strongly to cinematic boss fights and lengthier encounters, it is either intentionally or coincidentally antithetical to traditional MMO quest design and world mobs. Killing mobs in FFXIV is boring. They have too few of HP, the GCD is too long, and there is next to zero mob density outside of ARR. So tbh, it feels like it's quite intentional at this point. When I played in ARR, it felt much similar to other MMOs with the endgame hubs being chock full of bad guys to the point where sleep and other CC was actually useful and you had to be careful how and where you were pulling mobs. Leveling other jobs often significantly increased your power and adaptability via increasing your cross-class skills. A progression system that was directly tied to overworld (and all) combat.

Better quest design is when the quests interact with your other game systems. But outside of solo instances the devs have eschewed this since ARR.

I will say The Secret World was the most fun I had in an MMO questing, especially with its investigation quests.
Love me a world that wants to be interacted with and that behaves intuitively.

I would like to have them add more quests that actually has you participate with other players, even if they are glorified Fates, it would be nice to occasionally interact with others aside from dungeons and trials. Also having more NPCs in some quests so they are less barren and lonely. I think just having some that are visual set pieces and "help" you with stuff occasionally would feel nice.

I don't think there are easy answers to this because there are a variety of factors involved.

Technology (not everyone has access to the latest in hardware and fastest internet connection speeds), player skill, roleplay immersion (once past 3.0, the WoL's rather unique skill set has been identified and best saved for the situations that demand it, not common combat), the player's own concept of who their WoL is. Quests might feel simple in design but there's still many things underlying them that have to be considered.

Could SE have taken the game in a more combat focused direction? Yes, but that's not the main story they chose to create. The quests in the MSQ need to reflect the story they want to tell.

I still think there's room for SE to create an optional leveling path to the MSQ for those with no interest in story but they want this to remain close to what SE envisions the Final Fantasy experience to be and a large part of that is story. It's up to the player to decide if the game gives them the experience they're personally looking for, or if they're better off playing other games.

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Originally Posted by ThaCa

I would like to have them add more quests that actually has you participate with other players, even if they are glorified Fates, it would be nice to occasionally interact with others aside from dungeons and trials. Also having more NPCs in some quests so they are less barren and lonely. I think just having some that are visual set pieces and "help" you with stuff occasionally would feel nice.

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I've had alts that I leveled side by side with alts of friends. We'd stay somewhat in character as we chatted during cutscenes or talked about quest dialog.

The option is there to be participating with other players except in the solo duties. That's another thing I wish SE would do - we should be able to stay in party together for the solo duties even if we're still forced to complete the duty alone. It would help make it feel like we're still doing them together.

Stormblood had some of the best ones imo; they were highly thematic to the expansion itself and very situational like the whole thing in Ruby Sea. Good quests are those that are not generic and that are tied to the specific purpose of the overarching story. Like if dawntrail's about collecting gold, then make a lot of quests related to finding gold nodes on the map; finding treasure chests as you do fates, etc. But we know square enix "doesn't have time" to make an interesting overworld; they'll just copy paste the fate system and add nothing new to it.

They are still just reskinning the same 5 or 6 FATEs we have had since ARR. But now with a currency to get ppl to do them so they can say they are still popular.

I would be highly surprised, happy but surprised, if they did anything really new and different. I mean the things they added in EW were really questionable. Escort quests? Sneaky sneaky follow the npc quests? Strip player of all power and force them to sneak through a field of enemies? These are things that are almost universally hated by gamers, yet they added them and acted like it was a new big thing. Which, funnily enough, is exactly what they did when they added jumping in 2.0. 1.x had no jumping, neither does XI, and they acted like they just invented a never before seen element to movement. So, even if they do branch out, I doubt it will be anything too inspired.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

They are still just reskinning the same 5 or 6 FATEs we have had since ARR. But now with a currency to get ppl to do them so they can say they are still popular. Sneaky sneaky follow the npc quests? Strip player of all power and force them to sneak through a field of enemies?

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Hey now, these were pretty good when used sparingly!

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

Escort quests?

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These were actively unfun though. They weren't even escort quests (which I am genuinely ok with), they were little more than chaperoning an NPC's field trip... Essentially a cutscene that you had to hold W to progress. x_x

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

They are still just reskinning the same 5 or 6 FATEs we have had since ARR. But now with a currency to get ppl to do them so they can say they are still popular.

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Honestly every time I see "exploration zones" being developed I get a bit sad. Not because I don't like that kind of content (though I do have opinions on their progression systems...) but because that kind of danger and world interaction should be happening in the regular open world at all times!!! Forget Eureka/bozja/wherever! Put Notorious Monsters, Skirmishes, Critical Engagements, Castrum Sieges, and whatever new mechanics In The Open World!! Queuing up for "field operations" feels absolutely ridiculous in an MMO! XIV is STARVING for activities you can just get sucked into.. I wanna be doing my dailies and get side tracked because some random cool thing is happening in the zone I'm in. Knowing exactly what I'm going to be doing at every second I'm logged in gets boring :T

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Originally Posted by Roda

but because that kind of danger and world interaction should be happening in the regular open world at all times!!! Forget Eureka/bozja/wherever! Put Notorious Monsters, Skirmishes, Critical Engagements, Castrum Sieges, and whatever new mechanics In The Open World!!

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Agreed, the world basically just being a backdrop for the MSQ is criminal. So many of us want to go out into the world to explore, fight and just do something exciting. But we are sequestered to sitting around LL or, if you're lucky enough. our houses waiting on a queue to pop or going to that 1 special zone. So much wasted potential in such a beautiful world. I would kill for something even as simple as Campaign from XI being added into XIV, or have Hamlet Defense from 1.x brought back. FATEs are a giant continually wasted opportunity.

The quest system is completely adequate. I've enjoyed the devs attempts to make questing more varied - escorts, stealth, playing as other charas, the target/search stuff, the THREE GCDS of mecha rhythm game [Would love to have more of that in particular!!! 3 measly gcds is not enouuuuuugh!] The chat and investigate/question dialogue minigames- all very cute! I love chatting to the npcs after every dungeon or quest update. I've done almost every sidequest in the game. My problems lie in the execution and integration of them and how they bump up against ffxivs pernickety systems. too much confirming and reconfirming and menu faffing. I hate how npcs just fade out of existence when they move onto the next quest point. I want them to be in the world with my character if there's going to be such a focus on them as my in universe party members. Personal wants for future questing would be for each overworld map zone to function like a trust dungeon while you have msq active. I feel like overworld mobs are simple enough for the trust AI to not struggle and it would mean they could implement story beats that require combat as fates so they're actually integrated into the world more. I'm sure that would have it's own issues but just...something more tactile and engaging than just clicking a sparkly portal. Where's the romance in that???

Edit: If I had my wish every overworld zone would be like day 1 Eureka. Nowhere is safe, mobs are a threat - I wanna recreate my level 1 experience of being 1 shot by a cactuar s rank.

I don't know what the better quest design is, but the way it is, and has been for so long is very dated and boring. It's so obviously designed to waste time, with a lack of creativity to make it fun or engaging/exciting... that it's actually pretty disrespectful. There are some enjoyable tidbits on rare occasion, but that's nowhere near enough.

I think capitalizing more on quests that involve solo duties/instances would help tremendously, even if the goal isn't necessarily to kill, but to stealth, e.g., In From the Cold.

I don't think they need to get too egregious with the quests, honestly, just need to look at the frequency of certain things. We need more solo duties, and less of the "Hide and go Seek" nature... The quests that had NPCs following you or you following them like they started in Endwalker was a little interesting. Would be nice to capitalize on that a lot more.

Oh, I dread quests in this game, especially side quests. The MSQ is slightly better due to somewhat better writing and, presumably, stakes. But side quests often involve menial tasks, listening to the life stories of some of the more boring people on Eorzea. Don't get me wrong if they were real people, it would be a different story, but they're so clearly artificial and the writing doesn't land, it's clear I'm just randomly clicking on shiny points for no benefit. This NPC's life isn't going to change because I've found them a buyer for their wheat. Though, when the writing is good, and the quests are interesting it can land and be effective. I've just seen way too much bad writing in FFXIV side quests for my taste. Though it's on par with most other MMOs.

I think the other two categories of quest I've come to despise is where you train someone by just doing a thing -- "If I can see you do something once, I'll get it" is so not how learning works -- and I'll do a thing for 5 minutes and then tell the professional how to do their job -- "Oh, sell things people want to buy and you'll succeed." The latter would be incredibly insulting to a real person. We're pretending to do their job for 5 minutes and then explaining it back to them.

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

On the other hand, I do think that they'd sincerely benefit from stopping relying on excessive cinematics that slow down the pace of the game. Endwalker took this trend to the extreme

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My personal low point was when my character needed to active some devices for a MSQ and instead of giving me agency to flip the switches I got to watch myself do it in a cutscene.

The cutscenes wouldn't be nearly as bad if there weren't so many exaggerated reaction shots in everything.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

When I started playing this game, I was immediately struck by the fact it asked me to kill only 3 enemies for a quest. It made me feel like finally an MMORPG had been developed by someone who gets it. That killing 100 enemies is tedious.

So, although it may not be the best quest design, it is certainly not the worst when so many other games will have you farming easy enemies for hours to complete quests which is a whole lot less waste of time than, you know, actually progressing the storyline.

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I took hardcore WoW Classic for a spin this year and realized how much I missed real questing after FFXIV. You generally fight mobs in the world, keeping an eye open for patrols, spawns, and other challenges. It feels much more engaging to fight your way into the jungle looking for an enemy leader than to walk to the glowy spot on the ground, clicking, waiting, and having a few easy mobs spawning. It's also much more fun to be given a quest, execute it, and then turn it in than to get drip-fed story by running from place to place and watching cutscenes. For example moving into some ruins to grab an artifact might alert you to the involvement of a notorious cult when you find their acolytes there, or you might see discarded gear from an enemy faction that tells you they tried and failed to do the same thing.

Sure some quests in older MMOs would have low drop rates, but that's a minority of the content. The model is more engaging than FFXIV, as you're engaging with the world instead of doing something entirely else on rails and watching endless dialog cutscenes

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I don't think there are easy answers to this because there are a variety of factors involved.

Technology (not everyone has access to the latest in hardware and fastest internet connection speeds), player skill, roleplay immersion (once past 3.0, the WoL's rather unique skill set has been identified and best saved for the situations that demand it, not common combat), the player's own concept of who their WoL is. Quests might feel simple in design but there's still many things underlying them that have to be considered.

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This is silly, as MMOs have had engaging quest experiences on what would be considered a toaster today. WoW had massive success with more organic and challenging questing, and much much older-than-FFXIV games figured out things like phasing and interactive quests. My concept of my WoL is more active than running back and forth to watch dialog cutscenes, but I don't get the option to do anything else.

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Could SE have taken the game in a more combat focused direction? Yes, but that's not the main story they chose to create. The quests in the MSQ need to reflect the story they want to tell.

I still think there's room for SE to create an optional leveling path to the MSQ for those with no interest in story but they want this to remain close to what SE envisions the Final Fantasy experience to be and a large part of that is story. It's up to the player to decide if the game gives them the experience they're personally looking for, or if they're better off playing other games.

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You're creating a false dichotomy between story and combat. Many of these quests could easily be tweaked to reduce spoken exposition and increase engaging combat. Instead of moving to a designated point and spawning 3 enemies, why not have us fight into a building to eliminate the bandit leader? Instead of having a character announce in conversation that they've figured out the enemy plans, have us hunt down and loot enemy lieutenants to read letters that explain their plans. Etc.

Showing rather than telling is important in books and movies as well, and games have a level of interactivity on top of that. You can tell a story without endless "shot-reverse shot-reaction" cutscenes.

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I've had alts that I leveled side by side with alts of friends. We'd stay somewhat in character as we chatted during cutscenes or talked about quest dialog.

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You can also chat during combat, walking between encounters, etc. Indeed there are more hooks for RP as you're fighting into an area and looking for an objective, instead of watching people talk back and forth.

To me the gold standard of questing has always been Guild Wars 2. The game gives you many options to gain experience: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exp...ing_experience
-Main story quests
-Completing hearts, which are essentially areas where you can perform several different tasks to "fill up" the heart for experience. So if bandits were attacking a farm you could say kill bandits, put out fires with water, capture escaped livestock, or rescue farmers. Completion rewards currency and XP.
-Vistas: Where there is a point on the map you need to puzzle out a path to with climbing and pathing. You're rewarded with a cinematic vista and XP.
-Waypoints (reaching fast travel points) / Points of interest (reaching specific points on the map)
-Hero challenges (a climbing puzzle, boss, or event that rewards a skill point).
-Gathering nodes.
-Dynamic events, which are like what FATEs should be. Varied objectives that often create branching paths for a zone's story. So for example if you fight off the centaur invasion you might help the farmers rebuild, or if the centaurs are not driven off in time you might lead a revenge strike on their leader. Later on these turn into complex campaigns that involve zone-wide coordinate and culminate in boss battles and impressive loot.
-Adventures, where you are given some sort of challenge with Bronze, Silver, and Gold tiers. It might be an obstacle course with a timer, defusing X mines in a minute, or surviving Y waves in an arena.

FFXIV has the worst questing I've seen in any MMO. The MSQ quests are 90% just watching cutscenes, and it's clear that the developers love movie content and only stick a few gameplay crumbs in to technically make it a game. I dread the MSQ, because it's less interactive than a game and disjointed compared to a movie due to all of the traveling to point X. The open world is just a bland canvas to sprinkle a few fates on and to spawn quest characters on.