It Hydaelyn sundered herself, why doesn't First Hydaelyn handle the flood of light?

https://i.imgur.com/deJiJQc.jpeg
If Hydaelyn is a Primal of Divine Light, and she can empower Minfilia with the capability to stop/contain The Flood of Light, doesn't that mean that Hydaelyn has the power to stop it herself? In Heavensward, Source Hydaelyn directs Minfilia to the First using the Aether of the 6 crystals of light given to her by the WoDs and WoL. We know Hydaelyn is weak due to her helping us with Ultima Weapon and from enduring 7 calamities, but the reflections of Hydaelyn on the other shards shouldn't be as weakened? That said, if Hydaelyn can empower Minfilia to stop the flood, why can't First's Hydaelyn simply mitigate the flood herself? If you say she doesn't have the power over that kind of light then explain how Minfilia does it when she received the gift as Word of the Mother directly from Hydaelyn? [

She didn't sunder herself; there's only a single Hydaelyn.

It's difficult to say what, if anything, her doing that actually means or does in any form, because she's a freak situation in the context of the already wack-as-hell context of the sundering. So any answer we can possibly give is a presumption on top of a presumption.

That said, my theory lies in comparisons to Zodiark. If this is true (it's hard to know how much weight to give it, being a single line that's never called to anywhere else), plausibly she's in much a similar situation to him, with pieces spread out within the core of each shard's aetherial sea. There are defintiely differences in their symptoms, but presuming that Zodiark's appearance is something of a physical manifestation of something that's more metaphysical with Hydaelyn, we can start making some inferences.

Zodiark was a goddamn mess. We can see what parts of him were still not reattached; he's missing most of a wing, several tentacles, a number of apparently individually-disconnected arms, basically every part of his torso below the ribcage. Unlike human beings, who got effectively split into smaller versions of themselves, it seems like the form of the sundering that Zodiark (and by extension Hydaelyn) was hit with more just cleaved off parts of them. Parts that may not even be independently operable, let alone of any notable power by themselves.

I think that, maybe the alleged First shard of Hydaelyn just wasn't powerful enough to stop anything. After all, Source Hydaelyn lacked much ability to do anything without us to lead a charge. Hell, she might not even be anything more than the Zodiark shards, just an inert body floating in the aetherial sea.


Alternatively, I can put forward an even bigger reach of a theory. I don't think this is true, because if it was then something in-game would've said it, but consider:

Being subject to the sundering herself, Hydaelyn had thirteen shards. We know very little of what Hydaelyn did post-sundering, but the largest thing we know she did involved using some amount of her own power to create beings that she'd give specific charges, based on the people who sacrificed themselves so that the Hydaleyn plan could happen.

Perhaps it's not a coincidence that there were thirteen of them. And that, of all the characters that could've been the one to give this specific piece of information, it was one of those thirteen.

This is, of course all speculation, but I always figured that Hydaelyn's shards were inert. As in, they had no will of their own, inherently. Assuming Hydaelyn's sundering is like Zodiark's, when Fandaniel took control of Zodiark, he didn't seem to take control of him across all of the shards, so presumably Hydaelyn's "heart" (will) stayed on the Source. Assuming each of her sundered shards is in each reflection, she might have been able to use her shards as a connecting point to interact with the various reflections (how she granted the Blessing of Light/Traveller's Ward to people automatically, how she was able to bring souls from one lifestream to the other, how she sent Minfillia to the First, etc.)

The most likely answer is that this is a poor translation or some other kind of writing error. There is never any other mention of "other Hydaelyns" existing; there is just the one at the centre of the aetherial sea, who can somehow reach into all the other shards and move souls between them.

In the earliest tellings of the sundering story, it was specified that "the power" of Light and Darkness was distributed throughout the dimensions. The most recent tellings specify that Zodiark was divided throughout all the moons' prisons. Several mentions in the middle actually leave out "Herself" in the list of things She sundered - listing only Zodiark, the planet, and everything on it. (The Watcher's speech being a notable exception.) "Herself" and "the planet" are sometimes used synonymously or to imply one another. I don't recall off the top of my head if the newest stuff ever gets this specific but I'll keep an eye out during reviews.

I suppose a possible explanation for the ambiguity is that She deliberately sundered the power of Light (as a counterweight to Zodiark's Darkness) without sundering her own mind/individuality. It's possible the act couldn't be completed if She became 14 copies of Herself in the middle of performing it; it's possible She didn't want to risk Her various selves drifting into 14 slightly different entities over the eons.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

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When Ardbert's team came to the Source, they had been deceived by Elidibus into believing that the only way to save their world was to destroy ours. Minfilia's decision to give up her friends and past life to save the First was what set the Warriors of Darkness on the right path again. It had to be a member of the Scions, as their Source equivalents. You could argue that had anyone else intervened in Minfilia's stead, then Ardbert wouldn't have had the growth that he needed in order to save us in turn during Shadowbringers.

The Hydaelyn question depends on what sort of impact Her absence will have on both the lifestream and the stability of the remaining shards in the future. If things start to destabilize over time in Her absence, that may explain a limitation around Her involvement.

How is this even a question? If Hydaelyn does have conscious, sentient reflections of Herself on the other shards, they are much weaker than She is. Even the Hydaelyn we know needed Minfilia as Her voice just to carry on a conversation with us. Hydaelyn's shards, if they exist, are too weak to do anything.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

She didn't sunder herself; there's only a single Hydaelyn.

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Literally look at the image in the OP.

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Originally Posted by PorxiesRCute

How is this even a question? If Hydaelyn does have conscious, sentient reflections of Herself on the other shards, they are much weaker than She is. Even the Hydaelyn we know needed Minfilia as Her voice just to carry on a conversation with us. Hydaelyn's shards, if they exist, are too weak to do anything.

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The source Hydaelyn is weak becsuse she had to shield us from Ultima. The shard versions didn't. Moreover, source Hydaelyn has endured 7 calamities and the Ascians say she gets weaker with each one which is why Matoya's crystal eye is said to be a stronger crystal if light than ours. In other words, the scions concluded Hydaelyn was stronger in previous eras because she didn't have as many calamities to endure. No calamities have befallen shards that have not yet been rejoined, so 5hos3 Hydaelyn shards should be fine.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Literally look at the image in the OP.

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Ah, my eyes apparently missed that, thanks for pointing me to it.

Honestly, my best guess would be a mistranslation or perhaps even a writing error. Zodiark's body was quite literally separated, with different parts of it in different shards. Meanwhile, Hydaelyn's body on The Source seems complete and we don't see any physical evidence of Hydaelyn on other shards. For example, when Zodiark died, his dark-aspected aether on the 13th was released. If some aspect of Hydaelyn existed on the 13th, then it would have resulted in a release of light-aspected aether, which would definitely have been noticeable and of great interest to "Golbez". But we don't hear anything about that, either in actual events or speculations by the Scions, etc when discussing restoring the 13th. Similarly, the need to send the Word of the Mother to the 1st suggests that there was no Hydaelyn there, because if Hydaelyn had in some way been on the 1st it would have been more efficient to just do something herself rather than to:
1. empower an otherwise powerless person
2. transport them between shards

Much of which you said yourself in your first post...and I agree with you! ^^

So all in all, Occam's Razor suggests to me that this is simply an example of humans making mistakes rather than an actual phenomenon in the world of FF14.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

The source Hydaelyn is weak becsuse she had to shield us from Ultima. The shard versions didn't. Moreover, source Hydaelyn has endured 7 calamities and the Ascians say she gets weaker with each one which is why Matoya's crystal eye is said to be a stronger crystal if light than ours. In other words, the scions concluded Hydaelyn was stronger in previous eras because she didn't have as many calamities to endure. No calamities have befallen shards that have not yet been rejoined, so 5hos3 Hydaelyn shards should be fine.

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Again: if we assume she was sundered in a roughly similar way to Zodiark, then we can only assume that a shard's Hydaelyn is even weaker than the Source's, possibly to the point of not even having will or agency. (If, indeed, those parts of Hydaelyn are on other shards; one line is hard to take as hard-and-fast measured proof of every single supposedly-logical extension of that claim.)

Do you ask why Zodiark's dismembered arm sitting around on the Fourth wasn't good enough for the Ascians to make do with?

But if Hydi was sundered, then why does she get weaker with each calamity? You would think she grew stronger by having the reflections rejoining with her. Much like our souls did with us, other ppls souls did with them and Zodi's did with him.

Some points to consider:
- It's been 12,000 years since the Sundering.
- We know the Ascians have been active during that time, working on other reflections to try to prepare them for Calamities. We know Warriors of Light exist on other shards, and the only reason Hydaelyn calls them to action is precisely because they are needed to ward off Ascian machinations and potential small-c calamities on those reflections, not just to fight against the Calamities that occur on the Source, forcing Rejoinings. Warriors of Light have saved their world uncelebrated and unknown to us, like in the storybook of the First's first Warrior of Light, the one Elidibus modeled himself after in the Seat of Sacrifice.
- 12,000 years is a long time for any 1/14th Hydaelyn shard to be working, sometimes creating starshower illusions to wake the Echo, always bestowing the Blessing of Light, creating Crystals of Light for Warriors of Light who prove themselves worthy. We don't know how many times those shards would have been forced to expend power to intervene, the same way she did to save us from Ultima, or to revive us after Lahabrea nearly killed us.

It's very easy to understand why, twelve millennia later, the individual Hydaelyn shards might have become significantly weaker, only capable of passing out individual Blessings rather than halt an entire Flood.

EDIT: Keep in mind, the Oracle didn't even stop the Flood on her own. She was given power and aether by the Warriors of Darkness's Crystals (and ours), she was empowered by Hydaelyn, but all of Ardbert's friends also needed to sacrifice what remained of their aether to ensure Minfilia's success, while Ardbert was left behind as a ghost.

Even shortly after the Sundering, the Thirteenth's Hydaelyn wasn't strong enough to stop a Flood, though it being Darkness-aligned probably made such things even more difficult (wonder what happened to that Hydaelyn's aether after the Source Hydaelyn's death, given the state of the Void's malfunctioning Lifestream).

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

But if Hydi was sundered, then why does she get weaker with each calamity? You would think she grew stronger by having the reflections rejoining with her. Much like our souls did with us, other ppls souls did with them and Zodi's did with him.

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Definitely a point in favour of her being unsundered to begin with. I like to picture it that she isn't necessarily getting weaker but is remaining constant while the world she is interacting with grows stronger, in addition to her slowly "running out of battery".

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

But if Hydi was sundered, then why does she get weaker with each calamity? You would think she grew stronger by having the reflections rejoining with her. Much like our souls did with us, other ppls souls did with them and Zodi's did with him.

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Have you ever been hit with seven apocalypses? Being in the Aetherial Sea she was right in the mix of the aftermath of every single one, I can't imagine she's feeling very good after them.

Not to mention, as we learned far later from Hydaelyn herself, she was starving herself of additional aether the entire time--a fact that, most likely, nobody else was privvy to. Externally it probably did look like 'every Calamity makes Hydaelyn weaker', especially to the Ascians, just because they probably don't check often enough to come to the true conclusion. I forget who exactly told us 'every Calamity makes Hydaelyn weaker', but we should take into account the possibility that they just didn't have complete info.

For whatever it's worth, there was a time (Stormblood era) when the quasi-official dev. team answer to, "How do rejoinings make Zodiark stronger but Hydaelyn weaker?" was "That's a good question and we will come up with something." There were a lot of plot devices that - as I like to call it - "didn't have an exit strategy" at the time. The tidiness with which they were cleaned up varies from case to case.

For example, Elidibus (back in the days when his response to Lahabrea's death was little more than, "Well, that's annoying and inconvenient and more work for me.") said that being rejoined 7 times had resulted in the souls of the Source's becoming "weak and wan" (English) or "on the verge of inhuman" (Japanese) or "degraded and more spiritual" (French). In retrospect all of them should probably be ninja-edited to, "drawing ever-closer to regaining their true form" or whatever...but they remain for now.

Lines about Hydaelyn getting weaker as a result of rejoinings are from the same era. Another interesting facet of it is that Hydaelyn has been gifting crystals of Light to Her chosen before every Calamity and crystals that survive from previous eras show that they also get weaker each time.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I forget who exactly told us 'every Calamity makes Hydaelyn weaker', but we should take into account the possibility that they just didn't have complete info.

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Some were Hydaelyn Herself so we're stuck working around that. When Hydaelyn referred to Her increasing weakness, it was usually explicitly contrasted with Zodiark's increasing strength or having suffered a calamity so I think the other option is still pretty workable as an explanation.

Zodiark was consistently said to be stronger than Hydaelyn prior to and during their battle. The Unending Codex highlights that Zodiark was "unable to resist" after being fragmented, perhaps lending support to the "maybe she may have sundered Her energy but perhaps didn't create 14 copies of own Her soul/will" interpretation. And from the very start every act of direct intervention on Hydaelyn's part cost her dearly. Projecting a shield into the Praetorium put Her on life support. It's plausible that between empowering Her champions, trying to recover after / work around the Calamities, and being subjected to the increasing presence of Zodiark's Darkness, She suffered a net loss of available resources in spite of whatever the rejoinings gave back to Her.

I'm not surprised if she didn't even survive the flooding. She'd only be 1/14th of her power. The entire planet is in status, her share wouldn't be necessary to maintain the zodiaek shard's prison anymore

I've been playing FFXIV for three years. And in that time I've learned that you can't trust the English localization. It's best to find that dialog in Japanese and double check what the characters are saying before making theories.
As far as I know, she didn't sunder herself

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Some were Hydaelyn Herself so we're stuck working around that. When Hydaelyn referred to Her increasing weakness, it was usually explicitly contrasted with Zodiark's increasing strength or having suffered a calamity so I think the other option is still pretty workable as an explanation.

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That's a fair point, although I'd also point out that Hydaelyn was also the type to lie via creative selection of presented facts. Of course, that was always basically their attempt to paper over 'we changed our mind/came up with something better later', but it does still mean that a lot of info with her as a source does come with an asterisk; the fact this part also fits in that basket honestly changes very little.

My closest-to-the-letter interpretation would be to combine this with the fact she got famously weakened after the Praetorium, and land on where you mostly do; she just kept stepping in to try to prevent Calamities, and it kept not working. Of course that'd rhetorically math out to 'every Calamity makes her weaker and him stronger', even if that isn't literally true.

It could be that each time Zodiark was rejoined, Hydaelyn needed to spend more and more power to keep the seal intact. That's why she's weaker.

Also a possibility: each Hydaelyn from a reflection that saw demise just gets absorbed into Zodiark. So if by the end of it, if the Ascians achieved their goals, Zodiark could have theoretically become even stronger than it was once formed because it has all this transient aether. Leaving Hydaelyn in a much worse state than when she was, by not having her reflection returned and having to fight off the more powerful Zodiark as mentioned above.

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Originally Posted by Katish

Also a possibility: each Hydaelyn from a reflection that saw demise just gets absorbed into Zodiark. So if by the end of it, if the Ascians achieved their goals, Zodiark could have theoretically become even stronger than it was once formed because it has all this transient aether. Leaving Hydaelyn in a much worse state than when she was, by not having her reflection returned and having to fight off the more powerful Zodiark as mentioned above.

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Edit: this turned into rambling sorry, everything just kept compounding until I realized our easy defeat of Zodi really makes 0 sense.

If this were the case after 7 calamities Zodi would be stronger when we fought him than when he was originally sundered due to having 15 shards collected. His shard on the first + 7 of his and 7 of Hydi's shards. And even if Hydi's shards were not a aetherially dense, with 15 god shards he still would have been much stronger than us and our measly 8 ascian shards. As his heart Fani, someone who has been around thousands of years and was intimately familiar with Zodi and a myriad of other things, would have wiped the floor with us just by blinking. And why didn't he take Zodi to the other shards after he was free and had full control then come back and finish the job? The dude was a brilliant mind and tactician. It was already a stretch that he was such a pushover being x7 rejoined, add another x7 on top of that and it would have been a major plot hole instead of just a small one.

Remember Zodi came into being by thousands if not hundred of thousands or even millions of ascians sacrificing themselves and their aether to create him. So even x7 rejoined we are facing likely hundreds of thousands worth of ascian powered battery. The simple fact we struggled so hard against 1 unsundered, which would technically be the equivalent of only 14 shards, just an expansion prior already makes us defeating Zodi with barely more than a slight flick of the wrist questionable, add in those 7 Hydi shards, and well...that would just be really poorly thought out story telling. And how was Hydi so weak she couldn't talk to us anymore, but Zodi was still weaker yet after 7 rejoinings? And why, when she was at full power, didn't Hydi just delete the Zodi shards herself instead of letting m(b)illions of her children be gruesomely slaughtered over thousands of years when she had full knowledge of what caused the end days and 3 fully unsundered to help her out? Cause the timeline? That is some pretty weak story telling and makes the goddess we are supposed to revere not look too good. This is why we really should have had a timeline split, that would have solved a lot of issues...

We also have to consider that with Zeromus, that was only 1 fragment of Zodi, powered up by a single dragon and it was monumentally stronger than Zodi. So unless a single dragon, even though being first brood, was just so powerful that she was even more of a threat than a lil over half of Zodi, the whole thing falls to pieces. And if she is, why was Tiamat and Bahamut so easily captured by the Allagans? How was Ishgard able to still exist after the onslaught of an angry god-like being and thousands of his children? And why are we not worried about a large brood of dragons that could wipe us out with barely any effort just chilling in the world and even running nations?

So much about this story really makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

We know Hydaelyn is weak due to her helping us with Ultima Weapon and from enduring 7 calamities, but the reflections of Hydaelyn on the other shards shouldn't be as weakened?

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The answer's really very simple. You've encountered years of changed and changed for the worse writing. i.e. Bad writing.

Basically, Hydaelyn's just lying. She wasn't weakened by anything. She was always keeping just enough power to fight to the death with us in Endwalker, as she tells us at the end of her trial. She was always hoarding aether for the mothercrystal.

Her being "taxed" or "too weak" is literally just her feigning it, because it interrupts her hoarding.

There's a dialogue response in English where you get to choose a response as the WoL, "So she was lying to me?" And The Watcher's response was more or less, "Yeah, she lies occasionally, just like everyone else."

It literally comes right after the dialogue you've clipped, lmao.

http://cdn.discordapp.com/attachment...1c2105eb6abe5&

http://cdn.discordapp.com/attachment...16ee05b79b7e5&

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Basically, Hydaelyn's just lying. She wasn't weakened by anything. She was always keeping just enough power to fight to the death with us in Endwalker, as she tells us at the end of her trial. She was always hoarding aether for the mothercrystal.

Her being "taxed" or "too weak" is literally just her feigning it, because it interrupts her hoarding.

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I would disagree with the premise, "The Watcher confirms Hydaelyn lies," leading to the conclusion, "Hydaelyn claiming She's taxed and weak is a lie," in light of the same source in the same reference claiming that Hydaelyn was taxed and weak.

The Watcher refers to Hydaelyn's "gross embellishment" being in regard to the tale of Hydaelyn and Zodiark being two gods who existed in harmony until Zodiark's greed broke the balance - an obfuscation that concealed that they were both imperfect creations of man, as well as the existence of the lost history of the planet that the Ascians would sacrifice the present and future of every dimension in a futile attempt to reclaim.

His next line affirms that the brands (holding back a greater and greater volume of Darkness with every rejoining) were a burden that threatened to utterly consume Her.

Citation

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Maintaining the brands taxed Her greatly. With what power She dared spare, She cried out to any who might listen, and offered Her blessing to those who heeded Her call.

Die Erschaffung und Aufrechterhaltung der Siegel drohte, auch das letzte Quäntchen ihrer Kräfte aufzuzehren. Und so machte sie es sich zum Ziel, ein Gefolge um sich zu scharen, und schenkte all jenen ihren Segen, die dem Ruf folgten.
Creating and maintaining the seals threatened to drain every last ounce of her strength, so she set out to gather a following around her and bestowed her blessing on all who answered the call.

Hydaelyn consacre ainsi quasiment toutes ses forces au maintien du sceau, et avec le peu d'énergie qui lui reste, elle accorde sa protection à ceux qui entendent son appel, lancé depuis le cœur de la planète.
Hydaelyn thus devotes almost all of her strength to maintaining the seal, and with the little energy that remains, she grants protection to those who hear her call, launched from the heart of the planet.

彼女の力のほとんどは封印の維持に使われ、地上に対してできることといえば、星の内から危機を訴え、応じた者に加護を与える程度だった。
Most of her power was used to maintain the seal, and all she could do for the surface world was to warn of danger from within the planet and grant divine protection to those who responded.

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There are quite a few unknowns here.

Given that Hydaelyn and Zodiark were locked in combat at the time of the Sundering, you would expect Elidibus to be inside of Zodiark, and thus at the very epicenter of the whole thing. In order for him to escape unsundered, Elidibus would have had to have bailed mid-fight. Granted, that wouldn't be entirely surprising, given that Elidibus similarly turned tail and fled Zenos' body when confronted by Imperial Soldier A. Perhaps there's just a natural self-preservation instinct that usually kicks in and makes him go hide under a table when confronted by a sufficiently hardened battle-maniac.

If Elidibus wasn't inside of Zodiark at the time of the battle, then it opens up all sorts of interesting questions about Zodiark's 'will' in the absence of a 'Heart', as well as what fighting without one would have cost Him in terms of power. So either way, you can see plausible reasons why the power difference potentially didn't matter when they fought.

As far as Rejoinings are concerned, it's worth also asking how the souls of a shard actually find and merge with their equivalents on the Source. In the EE Vol.3 (p.13), there is a footnote to the diagram which states 'It is theorized that the worlds actually overlap each other in position, each occupying a separate, displaced layer of reality.' This suggests that the shards are all superimposed at the same physical spatial coordinates (but displaced in a parallel dimensional space.)

Having shards of Zodiark rejoin seems relatively straightforward, because all of them exist on topologically equivalent points in space (i.e. they're all imprisoned in the same spatial coordinates, on the moon). As a result, the shard and source equivalent would automatically map onto each other during each rejoining, causing the soul fragments to merge.

It becomes a bit more complicated when you start talking about souls in general, because people move around. Let's look at some cases.

Case 1: Source soul dead, shard soul alive
After the rejoining, neither soul has a body. The source soul is already within the lifestream. The soul on the shard that has just died should be drawn by the pull of the lifestream, and both souls will rejoin inside of it. The +1 effect only applies to their next rebirth.

Case 2: Source soul alive, shard soul dead
In this case, the shard soul is already inside of the lifestream. It shouldn't be able to break the pull of the lifestream to rejoin with its living source equivalent. When the source soul completes their life and enters the lifestream, then the souls will rejoin. The +1 effect only applies to their next rebirth.

Case 3: Both souls alive, but in different physical places
During a rejoining, the people on one of the shards die, so those souls are left without a body. Now comes the question of proximity. If the two souls are in close proximity, then you might expect them to merge directly (the Zodiark case). But if the source and shard equivalents are on 'the other side of the world' from each other, then you'd probably expect the pull of the lifestream to win out. Then you effectively have Case 2 again.

I don't think we'll ever have answers to these questions, simply because the more layers of detail you add to an explanation, the more convoluted and complicated it ends up becoming. Sometimes it's better to have a slightly less accurate/consistent explanation that is more palatable.

I think a lot of people would do well to remember that FFXIV isn't written in the same way as any other FF game but XI, and hasn't been since, if we're going to be completely honest, somewhere in 2010. Writing for a live service game requires a fundamentally different approach that's more akin to a long-running comic book or manga than anything else; because you can't perfectly predict where the future will go, and you can't easily edit what's already out there, a key part of the writing involves rewiring the parts of the story that were already there to serve the story that you're telling now. The fact that they're doing so isn't a failing of anything or anyone, because a story outline that exists across ten years and multiple writers is inevitably going to change, be refined, and be influenced by newer (and you would hope largely better) ideas.

I think the way that XIV did it with the Zodiark and Hydaelyn story especially was extremely smart, because they used it to accentuate the parts of characters that were needed for the story to work: namely, their flaws. Hydaelyn's info was unreliable because she's been hiding uncomfortable truths and acts for twelve thousand years for a greater good that she can only hope happens. The Scions' info wasn't always accurate because a core part of their story has always been to learn, to become better people with a greater understanding of others. And the Ascians went through more transformations of writer's intent than we can probably count, as they transformed from megalomaniacal monsters to, essentially, horribly broken people trying to bring back an idyllic past that they didn't truly understand.

Could you possibly write a form of FFXIV's story where all of the 'final forms' of those characters were present from the start? Yeah, probably. But the nature of a game like XIV is that they just can't edit those earlier chapters, so those refinements instead have to be written to work with those earlier ideas. And I think a crucial element of what makes all of it work is that they respect what came before, even as they reframe it: Hydaelyn's previous statements are never thrown in the dirt and rejected, even as they're shown to be lies, partially because they're shown to have elements of the truth. I actually think the best example of this is Lahabrea; it would've been so easy to just dismiss him as a completely unhinged raving lunatic who's lost touch with everything just so that we could easily dismiss his whole rant, and other writers might well have done that. But instead they went to great lengths to show how he got to that point, and to give him elements of truth that we can trace.

All that is to say, I hardly think that being able to recognize when something's changed is a flaw of anything. It just means that you can recognize how the game is written.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I think a lot of people would do well to remember that FFXIV isn't written in the same way as any other FF game but XI, and hasn't been since, if we're going to be completely honest, somewhere in 2010. Writing for a live service game requires a fundamentally different approach that's more akin to a long-running comic book or manga than anything else; because you can't perfectly predict where the future will go, and you can't easily edit what's already out there, a key part of the writing involves rewiring the parts of the story that were already there to serve the story that you're telling now. The fact that they're doing so isn't a failing of anything or anyone, because a story outline that exists across ten years and multiple writers is inevitably going to change, be refined, and be influenced by newer (and you would hope largely better) ideas.

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I would argue that XIV and XI are not written in the same way at all. XIV has had a running narrative with the same protagonists and antagonists from day 1. XI on the other hand was a collection of stories that shared a world but outside a camio here and there, were not really related to one another at all, Rhapsodies being the exception of course. Each individual expac could be a seperate game in and of itself and lose absoutely nothing.

One of the things that, imo, holds XIV back is the fact that is has a running narrative. They do not let us see the world for ourselves because the same group of scholars is whispering in our ears the entire time, informing us of the world the way they see it. We do not get to leave our little bubble at all really, so they have to change and retcon and act like things never happened, like all those minor ascians that just disappeared suddenly. In XI that was not the case for a large majority of the game. We got to know about the Far East through the eyes of ppl from the far East. We got to know the times of the crystal war through the eyes of the ppl who experienced it. They didn't have to do a lot of retconning because the narrative was different and a lot of things that we were experiencing were sometimes taking place in new areas, with new ppl, new lore and new everything, allowing them to tell new stories without taking away from what was. They were also not scared to get really dark while maintaining that hope exists and should be held dear. The end of days in XI would have looked incredibly different than just a handful or 2 of fights in some far off land we had never been to before that we deal with alongside of the same few npcs we have been dealing with things with since the beginning. The same NPCs who are telling us exactly what is going on because theirs is the only way we are allowed to see the world of XIV. The story telling is night and day between the two games, and saying they are on the same level is an incredible disservive...to XI.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

His next line affirms that the brands (holding back a greater and greater volume of Darkness with every rejoining) were a burden that threatened to utterly consume Her.

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His next line doesn't matter. If he tells us straight up that Hydaelyn lies when it suits her, particularly about the very important reason for us to adventure and do our deeds under her auspices, then that makes any information about her suspect. (This was the drive of the story at the time, too)


Keep in mind that the full context of this scene is the WoL and co. asking him questions after Zodiark has been killed. You've gone from the top of the The Watcher's palace to the bottom, looking into memory crystals at his records of his vigil over Zodiark. One of the crystals makes the same claim that maintaining the brands tax Hydaelyn greatly, while another states that The Watcher and The Lopporits perform regular maintenance on the brands.

There is still another that is the recording of The Watcher's musings on why the Ascians, possessed of the ability to come to the moon, do not assault the brands.


Stepping further into the story, we have Krile saying that she felt Hydaelyn weakening and that she was barely hanging on, but when we confront her in The Aitiascope, it is revealed that she's just fine and has been hoarding aether for 12,000 years. She is not weak. She is not near death (other than the fact that we're about to kill her in a fight to the death). She is not some frail entity.

Ultimately The Watcher is a shade she made, and apparently occasionally corresponded with. But we know the idea that she grew weaker being the reason for why she stopped talking to him wasn't true either, because she literally manifests as Venat twice to initiate communication with the WoL at the end of SHB and the beginning of Endwalker. SHB's there's few words vague words about darkness coming, because it was done to build hype, but in Endwalker on the boat, she makes this same claim levied in our contentious dialogue. That as Zodiark's strength grows, her own diminishes.

Supposedly this is also why she can't just draw our mind into the rift to tell us things. Keep in mind though, that this is also a lie, and an obvious one at that, because no more Rejoinings have occurred since our conversation with her through Minfilia and the rift in The Antitower. Then also keep in mind that we haven't been taxing her since Heavensward, and that she communicated with us by drawing our mind into the rift after supposedly being taxed severely by powering us up for Ultima Weapon and Lahabrea. She also shuts her eyes completely when paying lip service to the idea, a body language indication that she is lying to us.

So drawing back to my original statement, she was willing to lie about her entire struggle against the other Ascians and Zodiark. The Watcher confirms that Hydaelyn lies. Why wouldn't it follow that we are being lied to about how taxed she is by actions taken to go against her opposition? i.e. Why are we assuming that she told The Watcher the truth in this singular instance?

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

So drawing back to my original statement, she was willing to lie about her entire struggle against the other Ascians and Zodiark. The Watcher confirms that Hydaelyn lies. Why wouldn't it follow that we are being lied to about how taxed she is by actions taken to go against her opposition? i.e. Why are we assuming that she told The Watcher the truth in this singular instance?

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The Ascians were also shown to be willing to lie, even about base things such as who they are, with Emet-Selch probably the most prolific and committed to the long-con of them all.

Doesn't it also, then, follow that we were being lied to all the way through Shadowbringers, possibly even before? Did you believe Amaurot? Why would you have assumed he told the truth in this singular instance?

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

His next line doesn't matter. If he tells us straight up that Hydaelyn lies when it suits her <...> then that makes any information about her suspect.

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Imho, if he straight up tells us Hydaelyn lies, then that makes her the same as every other character in the story, leaving us to rely on the rest of the evidence in our search for the truth, as we always do.

"Hydaelyn made The Watcher so The Watcher only says what she wants." is, imho, a valid concern - as much as Hythlodaeus being a shade of Emet-Selch's feelings beneath all the other things that influenced his thinking - but then that would also suggest that Hydealyn is willing to admit her lies at the end of the road, lending some credibility to the things she's saying are true at the end of that same road.

And, imho, the rest of the context does not support, "she's fine, she's just lying" in light of...

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

when we confront her in The Aitiascope, it is revealed that she's just fine and has been hoarding aether for 12,000 years

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...that I disagree that, "A final test to see if you're able to surpass the Endsinger was always necessary, so I always held enough power in reserve to perform that test." and "I lied, I'm doing great." are equivalent statements.

Say you earmark your last $2,000 for the rent so you don't get evicted. But also you really don't have much left to pay for food and gas and electricity and water and all that. You admit to your friend that you're struggling. Then they see you pay your rent. Are they right to say that you're a liar, you're rich, you're a hoarder, you're doing great? (What if they can prove you've lied non-zero times in your life? Is that proof you're rich?)

Imho, the surrounding story supports the claim that her last sliver of power was reserved - to ensure that she didn't waste their one chance at assaulting the Endsinger on someone who wouldn't win - as a necessary part of the plan. She saw it as her responsibility.

CITATION

Context: Immediately after Hydaelyn's test, she collapses to the ground. Alisaie realizes, too late, that fighting Hydaelyn in her current state might deal her a mortal blow.

ALISAIE
No! This can't be happening!

HYDAELYN
Hmmm. Though my power is in constant flux, I have always kept a reserve for this very moment. It was a true test of your prowess. You have done well.

GERMAN

ALISAIE
Hydaelyn! Oh nein, deine Kräfte...!
Hydaelyn! Oh, no, your strength...!

HYDAELYN
Heh... Als Wille des Planeten und Wächterin über die Zukunft hatte ich mir genügend Kräfte gespart, diesen letzten Kampf zu Ende zu bringen. Nun ist es gut. Ihr wurdet rechtens geprüft... und habt rechtens gesiegt.
Heh... As the will of the planet and guardian of the future, I had saved enough strength to finish this final battle. Now it's alright. You have been rightly tested... and you have rightly triumphed.

FRENCH

ALISAIE
Hydaelyn... Ton énergie...
Hydaelyn... Your energy...

HYDAELYN
En tant que volonté de la planète et gardienne de son futur, j'avais conservé juste assez d'énergie pour mener ce combat à son terme. Soyez tranquilles... Vous avez été mis à l'épreuve comme il se doit, et vous avez brillamment réussi.
As the will of the planet and guardian of its future, I had retained just enough energy to see this fight through to the end. Rest easy... You have been properly tested, and you have succeeded brilliantly.

JAPANESE

ALISAIE
ハイデリン、あなた……やっぱりもう、力が……！
Hydaelyn, you... of course, your power....!

HYDAELYN
フ… 星の意志として、未来の番人として、この一戦をきちんとやり遂げるだけの力は、残してありました。だから、大丈夫……。あなたたちは正しく試され、正しく打ち勝ったわ。
Hu... I reserved enough strength to complete this battle... as the will of the star, and the guardian of the future... So, don't worry... You were properly tested, and you have properly overcome.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

One of the crystals makes the same claim that maintaining the brands tax Hydaelyn greatly, while another states that The Watcher and The Lopporits perform regular maintenance on the brands.

There is still another that is the recording of The Watcher's musings on why the Ascians, possessed of the ability to come to the moon, do not assault the brands.

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Don't those also support the idea that it's true? The rejoinings empower Zodiark, Zodiark struggles against the brands, Hydaelyn struggles (energy-wise Light vs. Dark) to keep the brands from buckling, the Loporrits and Watcher observe her struggling and try to (physical-realty-wise) do surveillance, maintenance, and preparations in case of failure.

The Ascians know that neither the Watcher nor Hydaelyn can afford to undo Zodiark before figuring out how to deal with the Endsinger. The Ascians know that Zodiark stands the best chance of victory if he remains secret and secure on the moon until he as at full power. Each party knows the others strategy, neither party stands to benefit from changing their own. Nash Equilibrium.

I would agree that a lot of the lore exists solely because, back when the foundations were built, Hydaelyn couldn't tell you anything that Square Enix didn't know, so a lot of this is just narrative clean-up of beginnings with no plans for endings.

But I don't think "grossly embellishing" the origin of the war makes the pragmatic assumption that her weakness is a ruse, the stress on the brands being taxing is a ruse, the Watcher and the Loporrits (being creations of Hydaelyn) are acting out performative concern and effort based on lies, etc. when the rest of the story seems (to me, at least) to support the idea that the stuff SE invented at the end to make sense of the beginning is intended to be taken as more or less accurate.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Ah, my eyes apparently missed that, thanks for pointing me to it.

Honestly, my best guess would be a mistranslation or perhaps even a writing error.

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It's basically the same in every other language so it's not an error.

German: Um Zodiark zu bändigen und hier zu versiegeln, entschloss Hydaelyn die Welt und damit auch sich selbst zu zersplittern. Hydaelyn war sich dieses Umstands wohl bewusst und entschloss sich daher, Zodiark - und mit ihm auch sich selbst und das Gestirn - zu zersplittern um ihn hier versiegeln zu können.

Source: [https://youtu.be/5HtdLS9pE4g?t=820](...dLS9pE4g?t=820)


French: [https://youtu.be/vMP4A-M2fcQ?t=780](...4A-M2fcQ?t=780)

ハイデリンの願いはゾディアークの消滅ではなかったことだ。
終末の根本的な原因を断てたわけではない以上、
ゾディアークがいなくなれば、それは再開しうる……。
ゆえに彼女は、世界と自分を巻き込んでまで、
ゾディアークを分割し、封じるという手を選んだのだ。
Hyadaelin’s wish wasn’t for the destruction of Zodiark. As long as the fundamental reason for the end of the world remained, if zodiark were to disappear, it could all happen again…. That is why she chose to split up zodiark and seal him away, even if it meant that both she and the world would be wrapped up along with it.