The Return of Sub-Jobs

Would you like to see sub-jobs return? Why or why not? If they returned, would you adjust the way they function in any way? Curious to hear folks' thoughts.

Personally I would, the big issue they used to have is job design was a lot less cohesive back then, a lot of standard tools that felt mandatory were arbitrarily locked onto other jobs and just sorta forced you to level them as well to really have a max level character.
I think that jobs now are a lot more functional than they were in ARR and Heavensward, so as long as you kept damaging moves/damage buffs out of the equation, it probably could work pretty well now, and give some level of agency to how you play/build your character.

Its preferable to role actions at the very least.

If they made the subjob system similar to ff11 instead of what they did during arr/hw.

I mean it's Possible that when 8.0 rolls around (because we're at cap) you would get a system like this, highly doubt it but one can dream.

Depends if it's any good I guess.

I think the "simplest" sub job system they could do is allowing each job to be other roles. Like there could be DPS BRD, Tank BRD, and Healer BRD.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

I think the "simplest" sub job system they could do is allowing each job to be other roles. Like there could be DPS BRD, Tank BRD, and Healer BRD.

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Think this would be unfitting for some jobs like tank bard lol that's a bit silly but healer bard makes sense.
I think maybe having a "spec system" where jobs can go down 1 or 2 different paths some examples.

Paladin - Tank (Normal) Paladin - Healer (Path 1) Paladin - DPS, faster with more combo paths (Path 2)
Black Mage - DPS (Normal) - Black mage (Ice Build) possibly much more mobile and supportive with debuffs - Black Mage - (Thunder) Focused on DOT's a lot more.
Dragoon - DPS (Normal) - Dragoon - Tank, more of a in your face protective gains mitigation skills Dragoon - Dps, More faster gcd's but less ogcds ect.

I think theirs a millon examples i could make here but I don't really think we need every job to tank or heal, I could see all tank/healers get a DPS build though.

Nah, just expand Classes to max level, so Gladiators are DPS while leaving Paladin as Tank.

Would be fun to explore what a Dark Knight class would be... Harrier?

I, for one, would LOVE to play Archer or Rogue, i don't like Bard or Ninja.

Sub-jobs just wouldn't work because people will pick what is most optimal. This already happened with classes vs jobs in ARR, where both could reach level 50 and classes could be better due to cross-class in certain cases.

Then if you do a sub-job system like SMN and SCH, they are virtually different jobs anyway... so are they really a sub-job anymore? Regardless, SE obviously does not want to do this again.

I would support different role specs for the jobs though. For example, Paladin would make a good healer. There was a time when I would have said Warrior wouldn't make sense as a healer, but look at it now. Gunbreaker could probably do it too using regens. All the tanks could be made to DPS. Samurai felt like the DPS version of a tank when it released, so it could tank. MNK used to have a defense stance so it could work as a tank! Probably all the melee DPS could work as a tank tbh, I did it as a Ninja occasionally as it is, with Shade Shift and Bloodbath. Red Mage would make sense having a healer spec.

The players would optimize the fun out of it. There would be an optimal sub job or every job and if you didn't choose that sub job then you will be removed from groups.

"but muh minmaxing" is such a surface level take. I urge people who actually think this to develop a more nuanced opinion.

sub-jobs in XIV don't work not because of optimization, but because the gameplay/encounter design does not accommodate or need such a feature. in other MMOs, subclassing/specializations work so they can make classes more versatile across a wide variety of content, because believe it or not, raiding is not the only thing you do in an MMO. however in XIV, the content does not possess such variety- and when it does, it is likely to have its own equivalent counterpart of a spec system such as essences/lost actions in Bozja.

unless they suddenly shift content design to be wildly different, subs/specs would be pretty worthless.

Wanting a subjob system for FFXIV is all very well and good (as on paper it sounds great), but in practice it is anything but - FFXI showed this all too badly, players found what provided the best benefit for the least effort, and only stuck with that, and if you dared think outside the box and use a different subjob to 'the meta', you were pretty much laughed out of Dodge and couldn't get parties no matter how hard you tried (even when there was viable alternative subjobs, if it wasn't the Meta, you were 'gimp').

I had this all too badly with WAR using a MNK subjob, which was a viable and effect combination, although it was reliant on a healer to keep them alive in a party as the MNK's Chakra ability was very impotent healing wise and WAR in FFXI has no self heals of it's own, but no, everyone went NIN to abuse Utsusemi, and I was constantly attacked in parties for "not having the right sub", despite proving MNK's effectiveness in battle and even outdamaging DPSes in some situations. Then DNC came along with it's healing dances allowing self-heals and enmity-boosting dances (so it was practically screaming "this is meant to be used as a subjob with tanks") and thus turned out to be better than a NIN sub for WAR (and yes, I switched to it), and yet, still there was constant complaints in parties "I was gimp" not using a NIN sub.

So forgive me for being a little cynical and snarky about a subjob system for FFXIV, I'm so glad Yoshi is ensuring FFXIV doesn't have that kind of nonsense.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

The players would optimize the fun out of it. There would be an optimal sub job or every job and if you didn't choose that sub job then you will be removed from groups.

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We're already balancing the game for min-maxing parse obsessed losers, and its why combat has no melee down time, addphases are being phased out, and every job more or less operates the same.

I cleared Alexander Savage Raids with Monk and PLD the two most hated jobs at the time. If the jobs are fun it doesn't matter as long as they can all clear the fight. Sure a small % of players will be picky in party finder but in comparison to the rest of the player base they are insignificant.

Been wanting classes for a while and in the future I'd be happy with 1 new job and 1 class rework per expansion. Saves on resources and it would be nice to play Archer without having to deal with the music aspect or Rogue without dealing with Ninjutsu.

Leveling a job to 30 or even 40 takes no time at all these days so even if they brought back cross-class actions and traits leveling alternate jobs would be a non-issue.

I don't expect them to do that and I don't think that should be a priority. They have to make the current jobs fun and unique on their own first.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

but no, everyone went NIN to abuse Utsusemi, and I was constantly attacked in parties for "not having the right sub", despite proving MNK's effectiveness in battle and even outdamaging DPSes in some situations.

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This brought back an old buried pain.

I hated /NIN so much that on my second character I sold the utsusemi scroll instead of dealing with all that again and played BLU/THF instead. I don’t know how “viable” it was but I loved sneak attack + trick attack + death scissors + chain affinity + RLB + burst affinity + bomb toss combo for tons of damage and self SC/MB.


Not sure subjobs have a place in FFXIV as it is now without a MAJOR overhaul though. We have problems with button bloat with our own job’s abilities, let alone a whole other one’s thrown in there too.

And with how few support abilities are left, everyone will take the same ones and then the job homogenization will be complete and job choice for the melees especially will be aesthetic only. SAM and BLM will become super unbalanced if they have “selfish” DPS but can also steal team-buffing abilities.

I think subjobs were fine in FFXI where each job doesn’t necessarily have too much going on for itself and subjobs were a paradigm shift to completely change your gameplay, but FFXIV is a completely different game. FFXIV is now also completely different from when using other class abilities started in 1.0 and got carried over into ARR. Job balance actually exists now, the job roster has more than doubled, and our hotbars are full.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

We're already balancing the game for min-maxing parse obsessed losers, and its why combat has no melee down time, addphases are being phased out, and every job more or less operates the same.

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Parsing doesn't even really make any sense with most jobs.
Like, does it really matter how well you pressed 123 fell cleave compared to other Warrior players?
Or dropping your crayons as Summoner. Hell, there's multiple layers of RNG that actively interfere with it too.
Number variance, direct hit, crit, direct crit.. Some jobs even having RNG procs.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Samurai felt like the DPS version of a tank when it released, so it could tank.

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Hien and Gosetsu are both pretty beefy Samurai tanks in Duty Support. So the precedent is already there.

I think it's an interesting idea that needs some tweaks. They've moved away from the class system so something like scholar and summoner won't happen again. I thought it would be interesting to introduce a system inspired by FFV, at least in name. Job Mastery. Basically, create "new" jobs of a different role that utilize the same weapon and maybe some base abilities from an existing job.

An example being white mage changing role to DPS as a green mage, focusing on damage using it's already existing earth wind and water knowledge to be a ranged caster.

Or a paladin changing to a DPS and retaining the sword and shield gameplay but maybe it becomes a DPS rune knight.

You could come up with all kinds of these examples. So long as they fix the weird limitations of the branching job system. I guess you'd have to make unique versions of their weapons even though they share a theme though due to d.stat differences. Or implement some kind of system that automatically changes a weapons stats based on which role you are using it for.

It's extremely unlikely lol, but it's fun to think about.

With how much each action ties into each job, you couldn't just take something from one job and slap it on another and have it work out.

So I am curious, how did you expect this to work out? Let's have some examples.

Also, if you allow traits, everyone is taking Maim and Mend 2 for an extra 30% extra damage, for free (or 10% if you only allow Maim and Mend 1).

As for allowing you to make different specs, with how much you would have to change a job in order to accommodate it, you might as well just make another jobs. Unlike other MMOs, you can freely switch between each role by swapping jobs, you aren't locked into that one job/class.

We used to sort of have sub-jobs with the Cross-class skills... They got replaced with the Role skills, and even those then got streamlined because every role just had some that were too important or too good.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Think this would be unfitting for some jobs like tank bard lol that's a bit silly but healer bard makes sense.
I think maybe having a "spec system" where jobs can go down 1 or 2 different paths some examples.

Paladin - Tank (Normal) Paladin - Healer (Path 1) Paladin - DPS, faster with more combo paths (Path 2)
Black Mage - DPS (Normal) - Black mage (Ice Build) possibly much more mobile and supportive with debuffs - Black Mage - (Thunder) Focused on DOT's a lot more.
Dragoon - DPS (Normal) - Dragoon - Tank, more of a in your face protective gains mitigation skills Dragoon - Dps, More faster gcd's but less ogcds ect.

I think theirs a millon examples i could make here but I don't really think we need every job to tank or heal, I could see all tank/healers get a DPS build though.

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Bard tank might work so long the class use some sort of electric guitar like DMC3 Dante with Nevan lol.

Instead of consign a weapon to a class, why not let a class have multiple weapon which, at the same offer a whole different skill set.

For example,
Classic DRK (a.k.a current DRK)
Use greatsword as main weapon, with skill set that features a good balance of physical and magical damage.

Rogue Templar DRK
Use flail and magic-conjured shield as main weapon, with skill set leans heavily on magical damage and has more defensive and sustain option but with lower DPS compared to Classic DRK.

Order Buster DRK
Use jousting lance as main weapon, with skill set leans heavily on physical damage and has more DPS but with even lower sustain compared to Classic DRK

Stygian Justiciar DRK
Use whip blade as main weapon, the melee DPS version of DRK with skill set feature multiple DoT attacks and mainly focus on DoT management.



Idea #2
Keep the weapon, but set the class rework as specs.

Given every class have their skill set pruned off as FFXIV expansion goes on.

I personally think instead keep rework a class over course of expansions upon expansions, why not put those rework into a spec, so that way, people who like how their class currently function will stay, meanwhile people who are dissatisfied can go and try the rework as new spec of a class.

So that way, you can have DRK with SB specs, or DRK with SHB specs.

We already have jobs branching from a single class.... SMN and SCH.

And look at how SE handled both

Whilst not perfect both SMN and SCH are two of the most picked jobs in EW. It took them time but they are both loved jobs in 14.

It's completely incompatible with FFXIV "design". Not just subjob, but any RPG-like system (multi-class, talent tree, ff7 materia, etc.)

FFXIV isn't a rpg, it's a fancy pong with some rpg-like UI tattooed on the butt.

Theres just no way we ever see this system come back. It's a balancing nightmare.