Players and the game design's mindset has become increasingly individualistic

The more we go back into the past of the game and talk about it, the more it becomes clear to me that there is those days a big divide between two major types of players:

- One side does really miss a lot of of the old party teamwork, resource management, resource scarcity, aggro control, actual skill gaps in how to use the battle system and job toolkits, role identity, etc.
- The other side never liked losing aggro, or seeing a DPS rip off aggro because they didn't manage it properly (maybe one side, maybe both sides, doesn't matter). They didn't like being drained out of TP/MP during fights. They didn't like when their team mates were playing worse than the bar they expected of them (this is actually still something you widely read all over the internet and ingame, people complaining about how bad their random team mates were in that last run). They don't want to see a lack of performance or failure from others affect their perfect gameplay. They don't like unexpected variations.

Well, when it comes to myself, I actually do think that the former are more collectively minded than the latter. I don't mind losing a couple of minutes or even five minutes to a dungeon run because someone is having difficulties (or even slacking). I like carrying. I like adjusting to make up for the weakest link in the team. I like being required to do put more effort and find creative solutions to salvage a run. I also do like the unexpected, for that a never changing script is boring. The very reason I like playing healers in some alliance raids like Ivalice or Nier is that I can raise dead bodies or turbo heal through scuffed runs even though I don't like healing otherwise.

So yes, I used to like tanking before ShB because I had to adjust my enmity control depending on my team mates and healer. If my DPS were doing wild DPS, I had to play a bit more conservative. If my team was not using their aggro properly, or the healer overhealing, I had to adjust and do my actual role as a tank. Today, I don't like tanking because i'm invulnerable and I don't have to adjust for anything. I just follow a predetermined script. Even if my whole party dies in a dungeon, I still follow the script and I can solo the mobs or the boss down and waste everybody's time (unless I'm a DRK... and even then...).

I used to like healing (I actually started the game in HW as a healer, funnily enough), because I had to adjust to my tank's gear, how well they used their defensives, which granted, is still somewhat true today. But I also had to adjust when a tank was not positioning mobs properly and eating crits from the back like there was no tomorrow. I had to adjust when I was overhealing and generating too much aggro, and sometimes just because I had to else the tank or the party would die. I had to adjust my playstyle when the tank decided to pull more, or to pull less, and sometimes they pulled less when they were playing well, and sometimes more when they were not good players. It generated pretty wild gaps in what was required of me. On top of it, I had to also manage my MP, and if pulls took too long, my MP would run dry. I had to find a constant balance between spamming Holy and healing the tank, and this also changed according to all those factors. Back then, MP also was tied to varying pools depending on gear and builds, and regened very slowly overall, which put more emphasis on Lucid, party MP refreshes, etc. The time it took to kill trash directly impacted into my MP reserves and they would NOT regen fully between pulls. Sometimes it was scuffed I misaimed, and I had to go through pulls with very scarse resources, which meant no holy and sparing my use of heals. Today on the other hand, resources are not a problem anymore and tanks are undying. All I have to do is spamm my single AoE button after applying a glorified regen or prepull shields/mits.

I used to like DPS because depending on who you got in your team, damage was not equal, which is still true today, yes, but it also meant that the slower we killed the mobs, the faster we'd run out of MP/TP. Some say it wasn't fun, but to me it was because then it forced me to adjust and play with new constraints. It forced me to manage my resources like for healers, and I knew I could start pumping turret promotion, manasong, tp song, tactician, etc. As a DPS I could immediately measure my contribution to the group by indirectly helping the supports (healer and tank) in how much resources they had to pour into each pull as well. Today, I just have to do my rotation, but I can still measure somewhat if I'm being efficient by how fast stuff dies, and that's why I play DPS and nothing else. It's been hurt less overall and it's easier to carry for the weakest link with that role, ironically, if it even still means anything today.

So, there used to be a lot of failure states directly built into the system, and they could snowball to an entropic party death beyond just failing mechanics. The great thing was that you could make up for someone else's mistakes, up to a point where you got overwhelmed and wiped. It actually favored skill expression a lot more than what we have today, and I'm really not speaking about complicated job rotations actually, quite the opposite. Today, the only failure state there is left is failing encounter mechanics. You can only help your weakest links go through those so far if it doesn't outright wipe the party. But surprise, in savage, the only way to keep things difficult is to introduce body checks everywhere so if someone fucks up mechanics constantly, then you're screwed, you can't even help or use your skills to make up for it.

It's turned into a semi solo game experience where you just rage when somebody fucks up a mechanic.


Edit: And you know what? Seeing the BLM rip aggro and get shredded by the boss was hilarious and I'll die on that hill.

All we have gained is a mediocre single player expirience.
The MMO part of this game is dead. The players are only in their ERP head space, there is no flavour or texture. You just go in a dungeon with 3 or more other players who are so robotic, they may as well be bots. The expirience is so much on rails that you start falling asleep not even half way through the first boss.
I used to like doing the daily roulettes and talking with other players. Now I can't even do more than 3 at a time cause I start falling asleep, and even then I need some sort of distraction like a YT video or music to even get through. No role is engaging enough after the 3rd run, no job is interesting after a few days of playing.
Everything is just boring. The most fun I had in game recently was when the tank got disconnected and the rest of us didn't notice, we got to the last boss by the time the tank returned. And it is sad.

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The more we go back into the past of the game and talk about it, the more it becomes clear to me that there is those days a big divide between two major types of players

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I can certainly confirm there was always a divide. This divide is not new, but perhaps it is even more fractured than it has ever been, because the game has more variety and features than back then.

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One side does really miss a lot of of the old party teamwork, resource management, resource scarcity, aggro control, actual skill gaps in how to use the battle system and job toolkits, role identity, etc.

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I miss it to a degree, I just accept that casual players rarely learned these things so an average sprout/returner you met in a dungeon wasn't doing these things.

I can accept it being significantly reduced, but bringing some aspects of it back would be nice. To a degree, these things have been replaced by other things though. Like tanks applying support buffs to other tanks wasn't so much of a thing in Heavensward for example and this has allowed me to save runs and clear extreme/savage. Tank AoE mitigation wasn't so much of a thing beside Divine Veil. I love Reprisal so much, because I just find it more versatile than applying a Strength down via the Rage of Halone combo for example.

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The other side never liked losing aggro, or seeing a DPS rip off aggro because they didn't manage it properly (maybe one side, maybe both sides, doesn't matter). They didn't like being drained out of TP/MP during fights. They didn't like when their team mates were playing worse than the bar they expected of them (this is actually still something you widely read all over the internet and ingame, people complaining about how bad their random team mates were in that last run). They don't want to see a lack of performance or failure from others affect their perfect gameplay. They don't like unexpected variations.

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It was extremely common for people to talk poorly of people in DF and their skill level. For example, a PLD that spammed Rage of Halone in tank stance despite having a Goring Blade combo and Royal Authority combo. People would get frustrated over aggro loss and things going on them and killing them, as well. In many other cases, it just made for conversation or something you could joke about.

Of all those things, I only didn't think enmity combos were healthy for the game on the basis that it was hard to explain this concept to a new player. Many other games have damage dealers and medics, but they don't necessarily have tanks. Tanking isn't a universal concept so explaining to people in Sastasha that they don't just run up to enemies and hit them and that there's enmity combos was like, how do I explain this.

As much as I liked stance dancing personally, I didn't feel like it was healthy for half of players to "believe" in using tank stance 100% of the time "because they're a tank" and the more min-max oriented being like "DPS stance 99% of the time". Maybe if the damage difference between the two was a lot smaller it would be alright.

The only thing I didn't like on a personal level was simply running out of TP. It just sucked to use Total Eclipse on PLD, then run out of TP because DPS was low and having to stop attacking altogether.

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I like carrying. I like adjusting to make up for the weakest link in the team. I like being required to do put more effort and find creative solutions to salvage a run.

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Same, and I believe the game was actually designed with that in mind originally. They knew some players would be not as good, but the veterans would be matched with them via roulettes and salvage their runs and show off their raid weapons and relic weapons etc. That worked well, in my opinion, so it doesn't feel so good that a casual Warrior that doesn't even know how to play a Warrior can probably solo a boss with how it is now.

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So yes, I used to like tanking before ShB because I had to adjust my enmity control depending on my team mates and healer. If my DPS were doing wild DPS, I had to play a bit more conservative.

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I did feel this was the case in Stormblood, but it also gave me some anxiety because I couldn't really know for sure how good my team was going to be. So I decide my team is moderately good but not the best, I might just do 2 enmity combos then switch out but if they then performed better than expected, I was like drat, I have to generate more enmity because I misjudged them. Sometimes they would use their enmtiy-reduction abilities but not always so it was difficult to know if you were wasting your damage managing aggro or not.

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Today, I don't like tanking because i'm invulnerable and I don't have to adjust for anything.

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I was able to solo low-level bosses (level 50 and 60 bosses) in Stormblood, actually. It's really always been possible, it just got easier over time due to extra self-heals and battle system adjustments. I like it to be possible, but hard to pull off and right now anyone could get to a point of soloing something on Warrior or Paladin, so it's gone overboard. They should have some survival tools that when pushed to their limit, might just allow a very skilled player to survive with a few HP, but not to the degree that healers are intentionally irrelevant and that they can solo something in their sleep without even trying.

Just to give an example here. In Stormblood, I played Warrior in The Great Gubal Library (Hard) and solo'd the last boss. To do this, I had to do all of the mechanics flawless and spam my Storm's Path combo and make good use of mits, Thrill and Equilibrium. Sometimes I'd get low and I had to really do it all right to survive.

I did the same in Keeper of the Lake last boss, except I didn't have Equilibrium. I solo'd it.

Now you'd just use Bloodwhetting on CD and wouldn't have to think at all. Anyone can do it now, even with 5 vulns. If we could get back to where it was with my above examples it would be more balanced.

Another factor is you couldn't survive solo against 8-person content in Heavensward. I vividly remember that if everyone wiped in Heart of the Creator normal, all the clemency spam and Hallowed Ground I could bring out wasn't enough to survive their auto attacks. Now bosses rarely get round to using autos or they don't hurt enough. Now you can solo through half of an extreme trial as a tank just to "preview the mechanics".

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I used to like healing (I actually started the game in HW as a healer, funnily enough), because I had to adjust to my tank's gear, how well they used their defensives

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I agree it's still true. You still might get a tank that forgets stance the entire dungeon. It's fun not to mention this so that you can have fun with it. But it would probably be the case more often if tank self-heals weren't as overboard as they have become.

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Originally Posted by Valence

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I agree that support roles in particular benefit from being more interdependent and having more opportunities to contribute to their team's success. But some of the systems cited were removed because they were genuinely bad. Modern resource systems allow you to at least perform parts of your base rotation if you run out of resources (if that could happen). Running out of TP left you with auto-attacks.

Likewise, you generally didn't need to adjust your gameplay to compensate for your teammates enmity generation if you were capable of doing raid content in ARR/HW. A tank using STR accessories in ARR/HW would overlap with physical ranged DPS output, so you definitely weren't going to lose enmity once established. The only point that really mattered was transition points like the opener or during add spawns. Both of these could be resolved with WAR's baseline toolkit (and WAR was in every group at the time), and having a NIN around worked out even better due to Shadewalker/Smokescreen.

In short, I agree with your sentiment, but I think you're remembering the past with rose coloured glasses.

I see this is the week of "back in my day...<insert_how_things_were_better>" posts

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

I see this is the week of "back in my day...<insert_how_things_were_better>" posts

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by Pip_Chick

All we have gained is a mediocre single player expirience.
The MMO part of this game is dead...

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I don't talk with other players because there isn't a second I'm not pressing a button or hopping out of an AoE. The experience here is very different than in its predecessor - I think the game is weaker for it. Leveling parties - perhaps outside of well-geared and specifically tailored meripos - were a much more relaxing experience and I'd argue more engaging. You could talk to your party members and make friends, and you often did because you'd spend an hour+ with them. There's so few memorable group activities here.

I can still remember the first time I defeated the dragon in mission 2-3, the first time I defeated the Shadow Lord, the first time I helped OTHERS with those missions, getting through Promyvions, preparing for the fights (leveling summoner lol), getting to the top of Attohwa Chasm, getting to the final floor in Nyzul Isle, defeating all the sky nms and getting my byakko haidate, exploring every single inch of sea, defeating Maat, defeating Maat on a job other than WHM (lol), completing all the Dynamis zones and getting my relics, so many stories because they were engaging. Cutscenes were sparse because they were rewards, not forced movies we have to sit through before we can go back to playing the game.

It was a completely different feeling, that game was, and it was so beloved and has such a loyal fanbase that it's still profitable for them to run the servers even today. There is a serious open-source project to emulate it with over thirty thousand commits, and private servers running era-preserved systems, that's how much that game is loved.

The only reason I even remember Crystal Tower enough to describe it is because it's literally the only raids that come up in the roulette. I've had to work for exactly nothing in this game. Almost all my jobs are 90 now, progressing there by doing brain-dead roulettes and 71+ Bozja while netflix is on in the background. This game is exactly like every other mmo on the market except with FFXIV lore and graphics. There is nothing that really distinguishes it from other modern mmos, while XI was a defiantly differently experience and design while still being so far ahead of its time I'm not sure that SE hasn't developed some sort of game engine time travel.

I miss the complexity of the simplicity of the older systems. I know that doesn't make sense to some of you who might be new to the franchise... but if you had been there... you'd understand.

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Originally Posted by Pip_Chick

All we have gained is a mediocre single player expirience.
The MMO part of this game is dead. The players are only in their ERP head space, there is no flavour or texture. You just go in a dungeon with 3 or more other players who are so robotic, they may as well be bots. The expirience is so much on rails that you start falling asleep not even half way through the first boss.
I used to like doing the daily roulettes and talking with other players. Now I can't even do more than 3 at a time cause I start falling asleep, and even then I need some sort of distraction like a YT video or music to even get through. No role is engaging enough after the 3rd run, no job is interesting after a few days of playing.
Everything is just boring. The most fun I had in game recently was when the tank got disconnected and the rest of us didn't notice, we got to the last boss by the time the tank returned. And it is sad.

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Pretty much how I feel

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

Yes.




I don't talk with other players because there isn't a second I'm not pressing a button or hopping out of an AoE. The experience here is very different than in its predecessor - I think the game is weaker for it. Leveling parties - perhaps outside of well-geared and specifically tailored meripos - were a much more relaxing experience and I'd argue more engaging. You could talk to your party members and make friends, and you often did because you'd spend an hour+ with them. There's so few memorable group activities here.

I can still remember the first time I defeated the dragon in mission 2-3, the first time I defeated the Shadow Lord, the first time I helped OTHERS with those missions, getting through Promyvions, preparing for the fights (leveling summoner lol), getting to the top of Attohwa Chasm, getting to the final floor in Nyzul Isle, defeating all the sky nms and getting my byakko haidate, exploring every single inch of sea, defeating Maat, defeating Maat on a job other than WHM (lol), completing all the Dynamis zones and getting my relics, so many stories because they were engaging. Cutscenes were sparse because they were rewards, not forced movies we have to sit through before we can go back to playing the game.

It was a completely different feeling, that game was, and it was so beloved and has such a loyal fanbase that it's still profitable for them to run the servers even today. There is a serious open-source project to emulate it with over thirty thousand commits, and private servers running era-preserved systems, that's how much that game is loved.

The only reason I even remember Crystal Tower enough to describe it is because it's literally the only raids that come up in the roulette. I've had to work for exactly nothing in this game. Almost all my jobs are 90 now, progressing there by doing brain-dead roulettes and 71+ Bozja while netflix is on in the background. This game is exactly like every other mmo on the market except with FFXIV lore and graphics. There is nothing that really distinguishes it from other modern mmos, while XI was a defiantly differently experience and design while still being so far ahead of its time I'm not sure that SE hasn't developed some sort of game engine time travel.

I miss the complexity of the simplicity of the older systems. I know that doesn't make sense to some of you who might be new to the franchise... but if you had been there... you'd understand.

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For every person that had this experience in XI, there is one who had an experience like mine, where people didn't want to help you level past the introductory areas, you get stuck in a loop of trying to form parties in the Dunes, being unable to level due to them not lasting long, and then repeat.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

But some of the systems cited were removed because they were genuinely bad.

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Your opinion.

But this is going back to the age old "improve and fix" vs "just delete what's imperfect in execution".

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Originally Posted by Lyth

In short, I agree with your sentiment, but I think you're remembering the past with rose coloured glasses.

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I am not, and I do think you're purposely colouring it in a bad light on purpose yourself with cherrypicking/nitpicking and overplaying certain aspects that were definitely not perfect (and it goes back again to the aforementioned point).
Any system has flaws, and the current one we have is no exception either. The whole point of the OP is to go over individualistic behaviors in XIV's history and the only thing you reply to me is "but X or Y were not perfect"?


Edit: I'll take the bait on tank aggro. Tanks didn't deal the same damage as rphys jobs, I don't know what you remember but you probably remember wrong. Tanks at top level were about 60 to 85% of the damage output of dps jobs depending on the jobs. If we remove the 10% piercing that rphys benefited from this still doesnt close the gap, even remotely close. If we're talking about AoE in dungeons, then it gets even messier, because AoE back then was crazy badly balanced, way more than raids, and the difference between a MNK (ludicrous AoE options) vs a SMN (completely busted with no falloff painflare/deathflare) was astronomical. Tank AoE was not on par with dps either, and this is even without talking about damage profiles, because if something bursts like crazy immediately, better than you do, then you'll lose aggro if you don't use at least some aggro moves.

Now I'll definitely agree that the higher your gear (BiS) and your skill, the less likely you'd have to spamm aggro moves, and I'd wager that you never really needed to do it because a lot of players didn't output way enough damage to remotely threaten you, even if they didn't use their quelling strikes either. Gear differences were definitely one of the limits of the system.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

I see this is the week of "back in my day...<insert_how_things_were_better>" posts

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If this is the only thing you chose to take from that thread, then you see me sorry hear it.

What a miserable post lol. Member tank stance dance? Member kaiten? Member pulling aggro? I looked at the job actions back then and it was a simple game in comparison input-wise. It's like the illusion of difficulty. "But you had to pay attention to when you could actually do your rotation!" "But you had to switch off tank stance!"

Co-dependent game design isn't really good in my opinion. People should be able to just focus on their own execution. I shouldn't have to micromanage someone else's performance to see what I am allowed to do.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

progressing there by doing brain-dead roulettes and 71+ Bozja while netflix is on in the background.

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In a game with a low bar for success and a high skill ceiling, it is what you make it. You choose the experience you complain about. The problem with modern gamers is they're often just doing something else and brainlessly getting by in the game they're playing. Whether it is watching netflix and botting out in game or watching a streamer while doing the same. You want an engaging experience? Play the game and try your best.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Edit: And you know what? Seeing the BLM rip aggro and get shredded by the boss was hilarious and I'll die on that hill.

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And this sums up the WoT, sadism.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

For every person that had this experience in XI, there is one who had an experience like mine, where people didn't want to help you level past the introductory areas, you get stuck in a loop of trying to form parties in the Dunes, being unable to level due to them not lasting long, and then repeat.

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That was my experience, yes, made even worse because I was a Mithra and because stats were "so important" back then, I *had* to play Thief and nothing else ever. Suffice to say I didn't last long with FF11 after release, and ultimately moved to WoW because it was the "casual" MMO even back then compared to the likes of everything else that was out.

Now I don't even play WoW and haven't for years, partially because Blizzard is an absolute YIKES of a company, but also because so much of that game was spent having "roll regret" because they were always doing things to classes causing most of them to end up in the dumpster until the next expansion because they just couldn't stop themselves from trying to re-invent the wheel all of the time.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

I see this is the week of "back in my day...<insert_how_things_were_better>" posts

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Hey it'll only get a lot better when Dawntrail hits! Just wait! This is the warm up.

Trust system all the way to level cap was a mistake. I should've been ONLY for all expansions except the new one.

island sanctuary is another mistake. We need more player interaction, not less.

ffxvi is for those who don't want to see other people in their game.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Hey it'll only get a lot better when Dawntrail hits! Just wait! This is the warm up.

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Don't worry, after msq and/or sidequests are done most people will bounce to other games.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

What a miserable post lol. Member tank stance dance? Member kaiten? Member pulling aggro? I looked at the job actions back then and it was a simple game in comparison input-wise. It's like the illusion of difficulty. "But you had to pay attention to when you could actually do your rotation!" "But you had to switch off tank stance!"

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Maybe you should look harder. Or... I don't know, maybe you should have actually played with it before looking like a fool there.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Co-dependent game design isn't really good in my opinion. People should be able to just focus on their own execution. I shouldn't have to micromanage someone else's performance to see what I am allowed to do.

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I do have one genuine question then: why do you play online with random players?

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

In a game with a low bar for success and a high skill ceiling, it is what you make it. You choose the experience you complain about. The problem with modern gamers is they're often just doing something else and brainlessly getting by in the game they're playing. Whether it is watching netflix and botting out in game or watching a streamer while doing the same. You want an engaging experience? Play the game and try your best.

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What happens when trying our best in content like Bozja and whatnot barely occupies half of our capabilities and turns into a mindless grind? Yeah, you grow bored and tend to do other things on the side, even if it harms the first activity in the process..

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Originally Posted by Valence

Maybe you should look harder. Or... I don't know, maybe you should have actually played with it before looking like a fool there.

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Explain what made job design harder back then if you can. From what I have seen and what I am reading in these posts, it was annoying busywork rather than deep mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I do have one genuine question then: why do you play online with random players?

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Because it's more enjoyable than playing with bots? What even is this argument? I am only allowed to enjoy playing with others if my success in game is dependent on them knowing contrived game systems that don't come naturally? What a weird take. Try running a savage in party finder with a group that doesn't know what they're doing and see what happens. We're co-dependent enough as is. You can't just do your own job right and win. Do you even play this game?

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Originally Posted by Valence

What happens when trying our best in content like Bozja and whatnot barely occupies half of our capabilities and turns into a mindless grind? Yeah, you grow bored and tend to do other things on the side, even if it harms the first activity in the process..

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Why are you doing so much bozja to begin with? Do it when it is fun, avoid it when it is a grind. There are so many activities in this game there is never an excuse for running content that makes you want to watch netflix on the side. If you complain about that, that's your own self-inflicted problem and not one with the game. It's not a reasonable complaint.

On top of that, there is more to engagement than just pressing buttons optimally. It's an mmoRPG. Have you tried immersing yourself in the fantasy of it? That's kinda the point after all and will never happen if you are doing something else on the side. I think tons of mmoRPG players are not actually into the whole fantasy aspect of roleplaying games. They play "roles" and don't care about the imagination, only the gameplay. Who could care about that demographic to begin with? You might as well be playing counter-strike.

Good post OP.
With the introduction of Trust system and simplification of combat/gameplay, seems like the devs want to slowly convert this into a semi single-player MMORPG. Unless you go to EX and Savage Trials, we might as well play with bots now.

Also same, used to like tanking very much before ShB because of those enmity control, now the role is so braindead I might fall asleep mid fight. Not to mention the issue with self-sustain healing too *cough*WAR*cough*.

I won't say the class design became more individualistic,
If anything,
The class design became less and less individualistic, which is evident by the awfully low amount of player skill expression. As player who main Class X will PROBABLY perform the same as another player who play the same class.

Player's role responsibility however,
their role didn't really become more nor less individualistic, just became different.

From "Do your best within what your own role can do to carry your team to victory"
to
"Do your best to follow step the of the best player of your role and victory will come to you naturally"

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Originally Posted by Pip_Chick

All we have gained is a mediocre single player expirience.
The MMO part of this game is dead. The players are only in their ERP head space, there is no flavour or texture. You just go in a dungeon with 3 or more other players who are so robotic, they may as well be bots. The expirience is so much on rails that you start falling asleep not even half way through the first boss.
I used to like doing the daily roulettes and talking with other players. Now I can't even do more than 3 at a time cause I start falling asleep, and even then I need some sort of distraction like a YT video or music to even get through. No role is engaging enough after the 3rd run, no job is interesting after a few days of playing.
Everything is just boring. The most fun I had in game recently was when the tank got disconnected and the rest of us didn't notice, we got to the last boss by the time the tank returned. And it is sad.

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100% spot on. I cannot emphasize how much I hate what dungeons have become since SB. Recently I decided to do level 90 roulette as paladin with my entire monitor covered in sheets of paper besides the minimap so I could vaguely navigate. I couldn't see my MP, HP, hotbars, cooldowns, character, enemies, anything. Not only did nobody die ever but my party members didn't even notice anything was wrong (or at least they didn't say anything about it). It was all "Hi" or "howdy" and "ggs" "tyfp" by the end.

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Originally Posted by Zadood

I won't say the class design became more individualistic,
If anything,
The class design became less and less individualistic, which is evident by the awfully low amount of player skill expression. As player who main Class X will PROBABLY perform the same as another player who play the same class.

Player's role responsibility however,
their role didn't really become more nor less individualistic, just became different.

From "Do your best within what your own role can do to carry your team to victory"
to
"Do your best to follow step the of the best player of your role and victory will come to you naturally"

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I really don't see what you are trying to convey here. Jobs have always had an optimal rotation, so nothing has changed in that regard.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Good post OP.
With the introduction of Trust system and simplification of combat/gameplay, seems like the devs want to slowly convert this into a semi single-player MMORPG. Unless you go to EX and Savage Trials, we might as well play with bots now.

Also same, used to like tanking very much before ShB because of those enmity control, now the role is so braindead I might fall asleep mid fight. Not to mention the issue with self-sustain healing too *cough*WAR*cough*.

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The streamlining and job cannibalisation was largely because of the Warrior playerbase not accepting any sort of weaknesses to offset their job's strengths.
So now every tank is going to be the same. There's a good reason they mentioned that they wanted to fix job identities in 8.0 whilst covering Dark knight.
Dark knight has seen the most of it's toolkit homogenised and cannibalised thanks to Warrior mains. I wish they would stop listening to streamers.

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Originally Posted by Pip_Chick

All we have gained is a mediocre single player expirience.
The MMO part of this game is dead. The players are only in their ERP head space, there is no flavour or texture. You just go in a dungeon with 3 or more other players who are so robotic, they may as well be bots. The expirience is so much on rails that you start falling asleep not even half way through the first boss.
I used to like doing the daily roulettes and talking with other players. Now I can't even do more than 3 at a time cause I start falling asleep, and even then I need some sort of distraction like a YT video or music to even get through. No role is engaging enough after the 3rd run, no job is interesting after a few days of playing.
Everything is just boring. The most fun I had in game recently was when the tank got disconnected and the rest of us didn't notice, we got to the last boss by the time the tank returned. And it is sad.

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Welcome to Second Life XIV.
If you aren't in to mod beast / venues / ERP and talk about sex jokes in Uldah or any main city then you aren't part of the group.
Don't forget to carry your "uwu f/f+ femra/kitsune Kon kon" preset and share your <Mare> tag.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

I really don't see what you are trying to convey here. Jobs have always had an optimal rotation, so nothing has changed in that regard.

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The difference of job design as well as job optimization between expansion is mistake tolerence.

Player in general tend to have more "tolerence" toward mistake and misplay when it's come to job/class that is known to be complex.

By streamlining a class, it's true that the said class will easier to play, but at the same time, the "excuses" for not able to play a job/class optimally will reduced quiet a lot.

I will clarify first that I only started to play FFxiv at Shb expansion, feel free to correct if I m wrong.

For example,
At ARR period, if a Tank make some slipped up and failed the aggro management, most folk will be like, "welp, crap happen I suppose".

Fast forward to EW, if a Tank make some slipped up and failed the aggro management, most folk will start to judge the tank negatively and be like, "you only have one job, and yet you failed, how incompotent you can be???"

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Originally Posted by Zadood

For example,
At ARR period, if a Tank make some slipped up and failed the aggro management, most folk will be like, "welp, crap happen I suppose".

Fast forward to EW, if a Tank make some slipped up and failed the aggro management, most folk will start to judge the tank negatively and be like, "you only have one job, and yet you failed, how incompotent you can be???"

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Just to note on this. In ARR, when the game was fairly new, it was acceptable to stay in tank stance as the whole DPSing in DPS stance never really hit until the end of ARR (and even then, only really in raid groups). It was only once HW came out and the first raid tier that there was a bigger push to have tanks in DPS stance.

Also, for ARR, Paladin's only combo was their enmity combo (they technically did have the riot blade combo, but that was never used in ST situations), so, even if there was a case where tanks were going to be put into DPS stance, they could still easily hold enmity. As for Warriors, they technically had 3 combos, however, the most damaging combo was the enmity combo, then you had the Storm's Eye combo which granted both a damage buff and a slashing debuff. The Storm's Path combo was the weakest and, whilst it did give the damage buff (via Maim), it's only other thing was a heal for 50% of the damage you done (stacks built up 1 at a time on all combo actions other than Heavy Swing, so there was no extra Wrath stacks generated here either). So, in both cases, the tanks had their enmity combo as part of their damage rotation, enmity was never an issue. Even in AoE, PLD only had Flash, which generated a ton of enmity and Warrior had Overpower and could cross Flash. Just as an FYI, flash done no damage and on PLD it did blind targets.

Now, coming to HW, PLD had a relatively easy job tanking in DPS stance, it helped that, at the time, Royal Authority comboed off of Savage Blade (enmity) and Shield Swipe, which proced off of blocks, also generated enmity. With these 2 things, PLD could comfortable tank in DPS stance and not lose enmity. Warrior was in a slightly different boat, with a proper DPS stance, Warrior could now pump out even more damage, which meant even more enmity. DRK, being the new tank, had no enmity moves in it's DPS rotation, however, a quick Dark Arts Power Slash and you would be set for the majority of the encounter. Which is also what most tanks done. 1 enmity combo in tank stance, swap to DPS and be fine for the remainder of the fight.

Come SB, things changed. All enmity was removed from damage rotations, for PLD, that meant Royal Authority was changed to combo off of Riot Blade, for Warrior, Storm's Path now generated 20 Wrath gauge, so it has more damage potential than Butchers Black and DRK was mostly the same. With this, they also added enmity control to all roles. Diversion (all DPS), which halved enmity gain and Lucid Dreaming which cut your current enmity by half (for all casters). This then created a weird state that enmity control wasn't the sole responsibility of the tank. Tanks could stay in DPS stance, but they wouldn't be able to generate enough enmity to keep ahead of the DPS, so it was down to the DPS to minimise their enmity gain to enable tanks to do their job. Now, I would say this system might seem good on paper, what it essentially boiled down to was the tank doing an enmity combo in tank stance at the start of the fight to generate a massive enmity lead, then swapping into DPS stance for the remainder of it. As long as the other people in the party used their enmity tools, you would be fine (assuming equal skill/gear levels). If they didn't, you were forced to use your enmity combo which had other consequences by this point, the main ones being, less damage and lack of resource generation.

Going into ShB, that is when the big change happened. Enmity generation was solely on the tanks and so, was massively increased so that it wasn't a problem. There was also no downsides to having your enmity stance on (of which there were downsides to the tank stance, mainly much lower damage). It basically went back to the ARR/HW system where the tanks were the only ones who manipulated enmity (HW Ninja is the exception) and just went full in on it. Whether this was a good change or not is highly dependant on who you ask.

As for other things to comment on. What makes a job complex? Ultimately, once you have learnt how to play a job and know how everything works, doesn't it then lose that complexity? Also, surely what people find complex is going to vary from person to person. i have seen people say that how Monk handles it's GCDs is complex, however, I have no issues with it.

As for streamlining, is it streamlining, or is it removing jank/adding QoL? Take Black Mage for example. It never used to have 0MP cost ice spells in AF (and vice versa), but now it does. This not only helped it's ST rotation (thanks to despair) but it also helped it's AoE rotation, which has had the pain of waiting for an MP tick after Flare in order to cast again. Was the changes to Enochian over the expansions a QoL upgrade or streamlining? Maybe someone thought it was fine. However, the big question is, did it enhance the job's playstyle at all?

This is the problem with making sweeping generalisations, you miss the nuance. This also goes for job gameplay. Something that gets thrown around alot is 'all jobs play the same', when that is far from the truth. Even actions that have similar uses interact with the kit differently. Take Inner Release from Warrior, which allows 3 uses of Fell Cleave without Gauge cost and Delirium, which allows 3 uses of Blood Spiller without gauge cost. Fundamentally, they seem the same. However, Inner Release also has anti status effects, including anti knockback, which could play a role in a fight and access to Primal Rend, a GCD gap closer, it also gives you extra time on your Surging Tempest damage buff. On the Delirium end, there is only one thing you have to be conscious of, and that is making sure your Blood Weapon Blood gain doesn't lose you any blood due to overcapping as you have no way to empty your blood gauge except with Living Shadow, which is only available every 2 minutes. As you can tell, getting into the nitty gritty of things shows differences between the 2.

Now, some might say, it isn't anything to worry about or, it's easy to manage but that then comes down to job knowledge. What could have been complex for someone has been made easy just with job knowledge.

Some of the older systems I do think were bad, but it is just as bad to try and reduce everything out of those systems, rather than finding an appropriate balance for them.

Not every dungeon needs to take 13 minutes, heck even 15 minutes. Not every trial needs to be a single one-shot attempt to kill -- Wiping needs to feel a little more normalized. Not every job needs to be devoid of inconvenience, nor does every job need to be something that every player can learn with the utmost simplicity.

Even as a casual, that wasn't necessarily good at the game or even the classes at the time, it was always nice to have small subtleties in the class to play around with like stance dancing.

I will say not all classes need to have complexity, and nor do I think complexity is even necessary -- But I do think the feeling of engagement is necessary, and at times it is difficult to get even that.

It's like someone replied to my comment once said on a hash of the story... - What people gained from ease they lost to apathy, and in this case I just think you're losing as many players to apathy as to what you're gaining with the sheer ease of those systems. It's OK for people to have long-term goals.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Not every dungeon needs to take 13 minutes, heck even 15 minutes. Not every trial needs to be a single one-shot attempt to kill -- Wiping needs to feel a little more normalized. Not every job needs to be devoid of inconvenience, nor does every job need to be something that every player can learn with the utmost simplicity.

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This is caused by a the side effect of: the most important part is the story. If people struggle at dungeons and trials, it might block story progression. Which is a very bad thing. As long as this argument exists, you cannot make stuff significantly harder.

The best way to get around that is by making the dungeons have difficulty tiers. Plenty of us are missing the 'hard' dungeon concept. Yet for a good experience its vital to get that back. Its content not easily clearable by anyone, but its also not extremely hard in such way you can take a day to complete it. The mechanics are just harsh enough to be able to cause wipes quite easily, but outside of that well doable and quickly clearable.

I think normal trials are already doing somewhat fine but do need some HP tweaking over time to avoid power creep from causing too fast kills. You should at least always get into a later phase of the fight were it fully performs its mechanics in combinations. Instead of already beating it during its tutorial phase.

And then I think it would be good if dungeons get the same treatment as trials: 2 diffirent modes with their own features. However, not as an extreme dungeon or even 2 modes normaly playable. Instead, we have the tutorial mode (duty support), and normal mode (the dungeon you get in roulettes). If the dungeon ends up blocking story progress, the duty support mode can help you get around that then. Duty support can give you the explenation of mechanics in a more safe and controlled way. You can even make the NPCs give hints here (and maybe after you died once). The normal mode (just like the extremes) can then directly focus on the actual mechanics that matter.

Feeding back from that idea, the same could even in theory be applied into the trials again as duty support could take a slower tutorial approach while the normal trial now very quickly starts doing the lategame (full) mechanics.

Duty support is one of those things that can always be used as a fallback, if needed we can even use the difficulty select window similar to instanced msq fights.

I haven't had a guild in Years. I simply do not need one at the Games current state. Everything i wanna do i can do with my Wife and randoms. Guess that says it all.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

Snip.

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A little struggle is fine, and honestly it isn't necessarily the fact of making the trials nor dungeons themselves more difficult, but more-so the recovery factor when things go south. In these instances a wipe is far more understandable than other things we see like on-level tanks laughing at dungeon bosses and trial bosses, like quite literally laughing at them.

If I can see a duo pair of tanks sit there and spend nigh on the better part of an entire second phase of Seat of Sacrifice and duo him as though he's meant to impose no threat whatsoever then that is a problem -- It's also a problem if I can sit there in Vanaspati and laugh at the final boss whilst everyone else in the party is laying on the floor then this is also a problem. The amount of outgoing damage should exceed what a tank or a duo pair of tanks are capable of sustaining themselves on.

I'm not expecting difficulty to shoot through the roof personally, as I think difficulty on fights hasn't been too bad, but the amount that people can sustain without a healer is borderline ridiculous.

It's only really capstone fights that struggle from power-creeping and honestly they need a stricter item level sync to adjust for this, e.g., how Endsinger is at the moment is perfectly fine -- Compare that to something like Hades, or even Nidhogg, then it's a problem. Again, I just think one of the biggest problems is the general outgoing damage. Maybe we disagree here, but personally no amount of "It should be easy" -- Is enough to warrant nor justify the things that classes are able to pull off.

I would be down for additionally difficulty, I personally think the game needs that anyway.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Explain what made job design harder back then if you can. From what I have seen and what I am reading in these posts, it was annoying busywork rather than deep mechanics.

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From that answer alone I see there is no point in continuing: you kinda closed the door yourself already. But your answer illustrates perfectly the OP in any case. If you think the OP was about making things harder, I think I either formulated it very badly, or you're just being obtuse on purpose. It just makes you sound a little clueless if I may say so, considering you didn't even play through the parts that I mentioned and still jump into it head-on with gigantic prejudices like if you knew better than anyone.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Because it's more enjoyable than playing with bots? What even is this argument? I am only allowed to enjoy playing with others if my success in game is dependent on them knowing contrived game systems that don't come naturally? What a weird take. Try running a savage in party finder with a group that doesn't know what they're doing and see what happens. We're co-dependent enough as is. You can't just do your own job right and win. Do you even play this game?

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I asked why you played online with random players, and I do not think your answer was bad or anything (except perhaps the needlessly aggressive last bit... why are you being so mad about it?). Again, it just illustrates the OP perfectly well. Some people want limited failure states coming from team mates, some want more. Yours is not necessarily a wrong mindset to have, it's just more individualistic, that's all.

And yes, I do play the game, thank you. If you're not convinced you'll see that my profile is public.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Why are you doing so much bozja to begin with? Do it when it is fun, avoid it when it is a grind. There are so many activities in this game there is never an excuse for running content that makes you want to watch netflix on the side. If you complain about that, that's your own self-inflicted problem and not one with the game. It's not a reasonable complaint.

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Believe me, I went through eureka hell at release, didn't like it, but tried every new iteration all the same with the hope to see some changes, or new things. With that experience in mind, and knowing it was just not my thing, I strolled through bozja by just doing the story because I do like XIV stories and lore. I didn't overstay my welcome for more than it was required of me to achieve that. But you're not even replying to the actual point, you're just moving the goalposts here. I just took bozja as an example of why people could come to watch netflix on the side, as you put it so nicely.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

On top of that, there is more to engagement than just pressing buttons optimally. It's an mmoRPG. Have you tried immersing yourself in the fantasy of it? That's kinda the point after all and will never happen if you are doing something else on the side. I think tons of mmoRPG players are not actually into the whole fantasy aspect of roleplaying games. They play "roles" and don't care about the imagination, only the gameplay. Who could care about that demographic to begin with? You might as well be playing counter-strike.

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You're assuming so much about me, and chaining ad hominem and strawmen like it's the olympics already I'm not sure if I have to laugh or cry. I don't think I have ever opened netflix or anything else while doing actual content myself, if that's what you were asking about though. I'm not sure where this discussion is leading to be perfectly frank.

You know what there is inside RPGs though beyond story and immersion (that I do enjoy very much btw as evidenced by what I said above already)? Actual party roles and systems beyond playing a scripted DDR game.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Maybe we disagree here, but personally no amount of "It should be easy" -- Is enough to warrant nor justify the things that classes are able to pull off.

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Yet the current design looks like its intended to be like that (and horrible). They seem to be too scared to see a party fail repeatedly and then abandon. Trials have the echo to at least reduce difficulty significantly, but in dungeons im not noticing anything to push the difficulty upward.

And thats why i said duty support can be a great aid to negate the excuse. Is content too hard? go duty support. It doesnt matter if duty support is easier, since you are already solo in that. And if that has the 2 difficulties: easy/normal or normal/hard (depending on how you want to name it), it means you could still play the intended difficulty. But now with at least properly scaled damage etc.

I want that little bit of struggle to exist. Its now just lacking completely.

I’m in the (what feels like) minority who loves all the changes that have been made to the game. I’ve been playing for 8 years, and the only reason I ever decided to pick up the game was because I’ve been a huge fan of all things FF for decades and I like creating my own characters. If not for that I never would’ve touched an MMO (and never have bothered with another MMO). I prefer keeping to myself, experiencing things at my own pace, and have severe clinical anxiety that makes socializing in any kind of co-op or competitive environment a nightmare. It took me years to feel comfortable enough to even do MSQ dungeons since I had no friends that wanted to play the game with me, and I still have extreme tank anxiety despite enjoying the role.

All of the changes to make the game simpler and more solo friendly have been a godsend for me. Even though I have mostly gotten over my anxiety and started doing normal raids a few years ago and joining farm parties in PF, I still prefer doing things at my own pace on my own. That said, it really makes me sad to see how many people hate the direction the game has taken. I don’t like seeing so many unhappy with it, because at the end of the day it’s a game meant to be enjoyed by people together. If the direction of the game changed to cater to the majority again, I wouldn’t mind, I’ll still be doing my own thing and enjoying all the social interactions that happen around me.

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

Welcome to Second Life XIV.
If you aren't in to mod beast / venues / ERP and talk about sex jokes in Uldah or any main city then you aren't part of the group.
Don't forget to carry your "uwu f/f+ femra/kitsune Kon kon" preset and share your <Mare> tag.

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And you’re on Balmung? Sounds like you should just switch DCs altogether, that’s rough.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

I see this is the week of "back in my day...<insert_how_things_were_better>" posts

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Back in my day, this is how job action reveals were done: Heavensward Job Action Trailer

I suspect that lot of people who reminisce about 'back in the day' did not in fact play the game back in the day.

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Originally Posted by Valence

If you think the OP was about making things harder, I think I either formulated it very badly, or you're just being obtuse on purpose.

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I asked for you to explain that's all.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I asked why you played online with random players, and I do not think your answer was bad or anything (except perhaps the needlessly aggressive last bit... why are you being so mad about it?).

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Ok? (Look at your own responses to me if you're wondering about my disposition toward you)

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Originally Posted by Valence

Believe me, I went through eureka hell at release, didn't like it, but tried every new iteration all the same with the hope to see some changes, or new things. With that experience in mind, and knowing it was just not my thing, I strolled through bozja by just doing the story because I do like XIV stories and lore. I didn't overstay my welcome for more than it was required of me to achieve that. But you're not even replying to the actual point, you're just moving the goalposts here. I just took bozja as an example of why people could come to watch netflix on the side, as you put it so nicely.

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You have to realize that not every aspect of this game is going to appeal to every player. If you keep doing stuff you don't enjoy, you're going to have a bittered experience. It's one thing to have an open mind and try new things, but it's something else to push yourself to try to enjoy everything even after learning you don't like it. Netflix on the side isn't going to add anything, it will only ever take away. Is it a problem that every part of the game isn't enjoyable to everyone? No.

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Originally Posted by Valence

You know what there is inside RPGs though beyond story and immersion (that I do enjoy very much btw as evidenced by what I said above already)? Actual party roles and systems beyond playing a scripted DDR game.

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Tanks tank in ffxiv, healers heal, damage dealers deal damage. It's not rocket science, it's what happens in ffxiv. I prefer the jobs being difficult rather than having to micromanage weird systems like aggro. WoW no longer has aggro issues and even in classic it didn't really have aggro issues. The players had skill issues or gear disparity back then. Even in classic WoW though, when I played my mage I would have rather just been able to do my full power rotation constantly rather than having to hold back my dps. It doesn't feel like an expression of skill to watch threat meters and make sure I am not dealing too much damage. It's just a bummer and makes me resent the state of the game or tank player holding me back from playing my rotations to the fullest. It's almost like the game is most fun when you can actually play it. I have powerful abilities, I'd like to be able to use them consistently.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Back in my day, this is how job action reveals were done: Heavensward Job Action Trailer

I suspect that lot of people who reminisce about 'back in the day' did not in fact play the game back in the day.

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What a blast from the past. Also lmfao this video doesn't even show fell cleave! No goad, smokescreen, or shadewalker on nin, just dream and some move I don't even remember because it's been so long.

playing this game now for 5 years. i understand how LOL players feel. i hate the game. i hate its developers, i hate its community of elitist mentors, nightclub degens and ultimate raiders saying its ok to be toxic and scream at people because that makes people better. i hate the jobs and i hate the content involving those jobs. the ONLY reason. i play now is to grind out the 5k win pvp achievement. i keep hoping that between now and when i get that the game will improve all the things so wrong with the game.

mentor reform
dungeons being fun again and having consequences
jobs needing to press buttons
players needing to communicate
overworld activity
cheaters in blundervil actually being punished

mh wilds is prolly coming out in 1 year. by then ill hopefully have my title.. and tbh. if nothing is set to change in 8.0.. thats it for me. i just cant do this anymore. i cant keep being mislead by these devs and listening to the cultists who tell me to feel bad for him because he once saved the game 10 years ago. the whole company is going under and they keep using this game as a get out of jail free card. id be surprised if they even invested 10% of the games revenue back into it at this point :<

this game cant even really be called a game now. its a social hub for erp venues and limsa hangout. there's basically nothing to do im bored out of my skull online and i just keep getting told the same thing over and over - go play something else. well i did. for 6 months. and now i came back. and theres still NOTHING to do. i cant help but wonder if "play something else" is code for. we dont want you here because you speak against our mindset. People are not facing up to the honest truth about the state of this game rn because either A- they are not playing it more than 6 hours a week B. they just use the game as a social hangout, and yet the sad reality is these players are the ones who are right. because rn the game is for them. not me. its not for me who wants fun things to do, fun grinds (FUN grinds, not killing ultimate or farming 20k horde because thats all there is to do now) or group content that doesn't involve going to a nightclub in some player owned house. its for the casual limsa afker who spams /roll. people who i just cant stand because they are just copies of each other and they dont say anything interesting or complex except for maybe "git gud". its a sad, and painful reality im slowly waking up to now. that this game i love. is just not for me. its for a 14 year old fortnite player or an IMVU refugee. its not for people who want actual gameplay and content.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

playing this game now for 5 years. i understand how LOL players feel. i hate the game. i hate its developers, i hate its community of elitist mentors, nightclub degens and ultimate raiders saying its ok to be toxic and scream at people because that makes people better. i hate the jobs and i hate the content involving those jobs. the ONLY reason. i play now is to grind out the 5k win pvp achievement. i keep hoping that between now and when i get that the game will improve all the things so wrong with the game.

by then ill hopefully have my title.. and tbh. if nothing is set to change in 8.0.. thats it for me. i just cant do this anymore. i cant keep being mislead by these devs and listening to the cultists who tell me to feel bad for him because he once saved the game 10 years ago. the whole company is going under and they keep using this game as a get out of jail free card. id be surprised if they even invested 10% of the games revenue back into it at this point

this game cant even really be called a game now. its a social hub for erp venues and limsa hangout. there's basically nothing to do im bored out of my skull online and i just keep getting told the same thing over and over - go play something else. well i did. for 6 months. and now i came back. and theres still NOTHING to do. i cant help but wonder if "play something else" is code for. we dont want you here because you speak against our mindset. People are not facing up to the honest truth about the state of this game rn because either A- they are not playing it more than 6 hours a week B. they just use the game as a social hangout, and yet the sad reality is these players are the ones who are right. because rn the game is for them. not me. its not for me who wants fun things to do, fun grinds (FUN grinds, not killing ultimate or farming 20k horde because thats all there is to do now) or group content that doesn't involve going to a nightclub in some player owned house. its for the casual limsa afker who spams /roll. people who i just cant stand because they are just copies of each other and they dont say anything interesting or complex except for maybe "git gud". its a sad, and painful reality im slowly waking up to now. that this game i love. is just not for me. its for a 14 year old fortnite player or an IMVU refugee. its not for people who want actual gameplay and content.

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Then you should take a break.......like seriously. If this game is hurting you as bad as you say it is, you are not liking the direction at all of where it's going, you don't like the way the content is laid out and the community is as toxic as you say(mind you I'm quoting what you said) then you should take a break. No reason to play something that is going to just frustrate you the time you see the log-in screen. At that point you are just a glutton for punishment. Why stay in an abusive relationship when you can just leave?

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Originally Posted by BruceMaxwell

Then you should take a break.......like seriously. If this game is hurting you as bad as you say it is, you are not liking the direction at all of where it's going, you don't like the way the content is laid out and the community is as toxic as you say(mind you I'm quoting what you said) then you should take a break. No reason to play something that is going to just frustrate you the time you see the log-in screen. At that point you are just a glutton for punishment. Why stay in an abusive relationship when you can just leave?

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i think many people dont realize how complex it is to just "quit" most people on 14 build a life here, an fc, friends, statics and social contacts. and if they leave. it leaves with them and then wherever they go.. its not going to be easy starting all over again. my boyfriend just came back after 6 months, and he is saying he might aswell move dc with me. because all the ppl on chaos he knew have forgotten him. this is what happens when u leave...and this is why people dont leave. because of investment and sunken cost fallacy. hate this idea of the only way to be happy is to leave something that makes so many other people unhappy instead of the devs just listening to us. its not so easy to just leave for most of us... weve invested so much time hours and money into it and then we are expected to just leave like that didnt happen. And its so many people who are unhappy now. its SO MANY. what would happen if we all left. would that make everything fine again?

Ironically those individualistic people are the first who quit after they finish X.0; they mostly have nothing to gain after that.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

I prefer the jobs being difficult rather than having to micromanage weird systems like aggro.

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And this is the problem, isn't it?

We already gutted aggro management but jobs difficulty remains the same, if not even simpler and easier than before.