Preliminary 7.0 BRD feedback

First of all, making songs aoe is such a welcome change! A Small concern, and while it is not a lot of damage, but BRD will be missing some of its personal damage when the changes go through. So please make sure that BRD still has its damage.

Merging the proc for Refulgent Arrow, and Shadowbite is way overdue, but good. Thanks.

Making Pitch Perfect deal AOE damage is also great, but my only nitpick is that I wish the AOE shape was a line instead of a circle because line AOE attacks like Apex, and Blast Arrow are fun to aim. The job that uses aiming gear should have to aim their attacks after all.

Like DRG, BRD starts fights feeling a bit weak so it should have more up front damage. Perhaps if Barrage remains a 2 minute cool down could grant a free use of a fully charged Apex Arrow on top of the triple hit Refulgent Arrow so it can have a stronger opener.

I agree for the shape of the PP AoE. Did they show it was an actual radius/circle instead of another shape? Yeah it needs to be a line, especially regarding the animation...

The new big nukes BRD gets from Radiant Finale and the follow up wind attack after Barrage/Refulgent are kinda boring mechanically like for most jobs that get the same kind of tools, but at least it fills up the burst window significantly. Current BRD's issue right now unlike DNC with its Sabre Dance rng spamm (esprit gauge) is that once you have exhausted your Barrage and Apex, you're left with nothing much but random filler attacks until the Iron Jaw dot refresh at the end. It makes the burst feel over after barely 3 GCDs way too prematurely, so I'll definitely take more things to put inside.

I don't really have much say in BRD because I just started playing it now. Don't have any experience with BRD during it's previous iterations, but I do like the job and I do like what I saw on the Job Action Trailer.

BRD's actually kept the DoTs. Happy about this.

Procing both Refulgent Arrow and Shadowbite is a good thing.

AoE Pitch Perfect is good too.

The only thing that needs changing in my opinion is to alleviate some of the issues when you are playing BRD at low level content. Getting Wander's Minute at level 50 to complete the song rotation early would be nice. You still get Pitch Perfect at level 52, but I'd prefer it that we get all three songs in the level 30 to 50 range. Also, something needs to change about Sidewinder. Not sure what we do with that skill, but it's still in DT. SE needs to think of something.

Another bit of feedback while they are improving Refulgent Arrow, and Shadowbite procs, but please make it so that Barrage doesn't overwrite any existing Refulgent Arrow/Shadowbite procs in a similar fashion that DNC's Flourish doesn't overwrite their procs.

I am glad that bard looks more magical.

very shocked that the DoTs are untouched. I was absolutely convinced they'd remove them, but I'm actually glad they're staying even if they're still not tied to repertoire procs. I'd rather have them than nothing y'know.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Another bit of feedback while they are improving Refulgent Arrow, and Shadowbite procs, but please make it so that Barrage doesn't overwrite any existing Refulgent Arrow/Shadowbite procs in a similar fashion that DNC's Flourish doesn't overwrite their procs.

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What's the reasoning behind out of curiosity? Drifting Barrage over time?

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Originally Posted by Valence

What's the reasoning behind out of curiosity? Drifting Barrage over time?

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Yeah. I've had Barrage get pushed back super late into burst windows, and almost out of them because I would keep getting Refulgent procs. And because of it's super long cooldown, it stays there. I've began to just press it even when I have a proc, and just eat the damage loss when the proc gets overwritten. So I feel like we should be able to use Barrage even when we already have a Refulgent proc.

Huh. Never happened to me and I actually have raided with bard for the whole expansion... At best it got pushed by 3-4 GCDs... when very unlucky. You literally need 5+ GCDs to proc and push it out, which means over 10min of fight with 100% RA procs at exactly the wrong time each burst... Although I guess it could happen. Although just overwriting a RA proc isn't gonna be the end of the world either. If you do like for DNC, it's removing skill expression as well.

Either way I don't feel strongly about it anyway.

I agree with pitch perfect being a line. I love cone/line-shaped aoes (which is why I kind of dislike shadowbite randomly being a circle on a target lol). Cone/line aoes can also reach farther and allow you to cleave more units.

Some other feedback: I hope they make songs more flexible in DT. Bard is one of the worst classes to die on, since you lose everything and it's hard to recover your song rotation if you die at an unfortunate time. Songs should have a lower cooldown and (maybe) be longer as well. This can help bards recover more easily when they die early/mid-song. It makes no sense that bard is punished this hard for dying, when most other classes lose little to nothing when they die. Also, flexible songs can lead to more skill expression in song rotations/order if the encounter allows for it.

Or maybe it's the other classes that don't get punished well enough when they die those days. Food for thought.

Generally, I'm quite happy with the changes. BRD quality-of-life improvements, with key improvements making it down to roulette-level content as well.

My only gripe is that we're not actively buffing much. Songs are a set rotation, and our other utility spells are quite situational. I don't know if other BRDs do this, but I cast Peloton during raid fight downtime just for aesthetics. I would really enjoy a couple of buffs to choose between to actively keep up during the fight, maybe even displacing our DoT buttons (as the DoTs have been de-emphasized since EW).

You're joking right? Battle Voice + Radiant Finale + the passive song effects over time amount for over 15% of the bard's damage translated into team damage. It's close in numbers to DNC and there is literally no other job in the game that can even do half of what both of those bring in terms of damage buffs.

Bard definitely seems safe changes wise despite some losses in the past.

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Originally Posted by Valence

You're joking right? Battle Voice + Radiant Finale + the passive song effects over time amount for over 15% of the bard's damage translated into team damage. It's close in numbers to DNC and there is literally no other job in the game that can even do half of what both of those bring in terms of damage buffs.

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It's interesting how player perception works like that where BRD's party buffs are numerically incredibly strong, but are perceived as weak or non existent. Which is why I firmly believe, and it may be a little counter intuitive, that BRD's personal damage needs to be much higher than it is now. I think the reason why DNC's 5% Technical Finish party buff is considered stronger than BRD's 20% DH, 6% damage, and 2% crit party buffs during 2 mins is because there is a 1200 potency nuke attacked to Technical Finish.

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Originally Posted by Valence

You're joking right? Battle Voice + Radiant Finale + the passive song effects over time amount for over 15% of the bard's damage translated into team damage. It's close in numbers to DNC and there is literally no other job in the game that can even do half of what both of those bring in terms of damage buffs.

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I don't care about numerical power; we spend very little effort buffing. You mentioned 2.5 oGCDs per minute, which is nothing for a bard archetype that has 24+ GCDs + oGCDs per minute to play with. Move some of that power to separate skills that involve choice and active maintenance. Think Peloton, but for party buffing or enemy debuffing.

I mentioned 2.5 oGCDs per minute?

I don't disagree with your wish though. I'm always for more abilities that bring actual player agency.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I mentioned 2.5 oGCDs per minute?

I don't disagree with your wish though. I'm always for more abilities that bring actual player agency.

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Battle Voice + Radiant Finale + 3 Songs = 5 OGCDs in a 2 minute cycle.

I think the AoE they showed is a Barrage remake. So instead of giving 3 hits for the next attack, it would cause this big AoE damage. On the one hand, this is a good change, because Barrage feels super awful when dealing with AoE, just like Pitch Perfect. However I worry that this may simplify the proc management during bursts a lot. This might be because of the new Radiant Finale follow-up, so it's not that big of a deal. I just hope that they give Bard a trait that decreases its cooldown to 60s.

I'm just sad they didn't do anything with Sidewinder. My hope was that they would give 2 repertoire procs, and maybe Wanderer's could get an upgrade to have 4 stacks, but eh.

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Originally Posted by Vandso

I think the AoE they showed is a Barrage remake. So instead of giving 3 hits for the next attack, it would cause this big AoE damage. On the one hand, this is a good change, because Barrage feels super awful when dealing with AoE, just like Pitch Perfect. However I worry that this may simplify the proc management during bursts a lot. This might be because of the new Radiant Finale follow-up, so it's not that big of a deal. I just hope that they give Bard a trait that decreases its cooldown to 60s.

I'm just sad they didn't do anything with Sidewinder. My hope was that they would give 2 repertoire procs, and maybe Wanderer's could get an upgrade to have 4 stacks, but eh.

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IIRC the new wind aoe follow up attack for Barrage appears to be an oGCD, so we're still gonna be using Barrage for the triple hit Refulgent Arrow/buffed Shadowbite. And yes, Barrage should have a shorter cooldown.

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

Battle Voice + Radiant Finale + 3 Songs = 5 OGCDs in a 2 minute cycle.

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What about Minne and Troubadour? I mean I don't necessarily disagree with you on this though.

think the system changes behind the songs overall are good as it helps alleviate one of the biggest issues BRD had throughout EW. there is probs 2 things i want to see that would make me go from "oh this is neat" to "yes, yes, YES!" would be the following:

Bloodletter procs from Mages Ballard being brought back to 1 full stack up from just being 7.5 seconds from the recast. (like it was pre 6.0)
song cooldowns being reduced from 120s to 100s-110s, long enough that necessitates all 3 to be used in a 2 min loop, but short enough to allow for more flexibility around using the songs.

think the new GCD's that branch off from barrage refulgent and Radiant Finale should make 2 min windows less random based on refulgent procs but we'll have to see when DT drops.

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Originally Posted by Valence

What about Minne and Troubadour? I mean I don't necessarily disagree with you on this though.

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Those are situational and probably not used on cooldown, though I enjoy their functioning and aesthetic.

With the media tour info released it is apparent that BRD's 'weak opener' is likely going to be a threefold problem. BRD's raid buff, Radiant Finale is at its weakest at the start of a fight. BRD does not have access to Apex, and Blast Arrow at the start of a fight so its personal damage output will be significantly lower. And Radiant Encore, BRD's level 100 capstone action is at its weakest at the start of a fight. This isn't a problem for the rest of the physical ranged DPS who have access to the majority of their damage, and buff contribution at the start of a fight. What could help is letting BRD have full Soul Voice Gauge, full coda or both at the start of a fight.

If it is intended that BRD's damage output is required to ramp up in power over time, then BRD's damage output outside of burst should be increased by a noticeable amount by increasing the potency of actions like Burst Shot, Refulgent Arrow, Heartbreak Shot, Sidewinder, or its two DoTs Caustic Bite, and Stormbite. Also consider lowering the cooldown of Barrage to 60 or even 40 seconds.

Please consider these changes for the release of Dawntrail.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

If it is intended that BRD's damage output is required to ramp up in power over time, then BRD's damage output outside of burst should be increased by a noticeable amount by increasing the potency of actions like Burst Shot, Refulgent Arrow, Heartbreak Shot, Sidewinder, or its two DoTs Caustic Bite, and Stormbite. Also consider lowering the cooldown of Barrage to 60 or even 40 seconds.

Please consider these changes for the release of Dawntrail.

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I don't even hate the idea of a ramping cd like Finale, but I think in that case it should end up stronger than its counterparts (e.g. technical finish/divination) when it actually has fully ramped, not "you start of worse and end up equal". I do believe technical finish is 5% compared to finale 6% already, but you get the idea.

Thinking they could also let BRD do what PCT can do with their paintings, and play their songs out of combat, and they don't have a cooldown so they can prep their coda before a fight. Perhaps songs played out of combat can even grant Soul Voice gauge so they can have an Apex, and Blast Arrow ready.

The song change is awesome, But my biggest concern is that the song now needs to be postponed by one GCD window. Because the judgment of entering the combat state will be delayed by some seconds.

I don't understand the trait Ranged Mastery at LV94. Burst Shot and Refulgent Arrow currently have 220 and 280. Does this LV94 mean that the potency of these two skills will decrease for levels below 94? And, these are very basic damage-dealing skills. Let's do the math: if each skill does 10 less DPS in LV90, then BRD at level 90 raid like DSR and TOP every 120 seconds would lose 800DPS than before, And right now the song does no do damage, that's 1100 DPS in the DSR and TOP, That can't be compensated for simply by extending Battle Voice and Radiant Finale to 20 seconds.

Furthermore, extending Battle Voice and Radiant Finale to 20 seconds, while Raging Strikes remains at 20 seconds, will cause the buff durations of Raging Strikes and Battle Voice/Radiant Finale to be inconsistent. This may lead to a rigid and inflexible rotation in order to maximize DPS.

Based on the current changes, the rotation looks like this:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GPip-8Ma...jpg&name=large

After actual testing, delaying the use of Empyreal Arrow until the fourth GCD may result in higher DPS.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GPyMeUVb...jpg&name=large

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Originally Posted by YuzukiTsuru

The song change is awesome, But my biggest concern is that the song now needs to be postponed by one GCD window. Because the judgment of entering the combat state will be delayed by some seconds.

I don't understand the trait Ranged Mastery at LV94. Burst Shot and Refulgent Arrow currently have 220 and 280. Does this LV94 mean that the potency of these two skills will decrease for levels below 94? And, these are very basic damage-dealing skills. Let's do the math: if each skill does 10 less DPS in LV90, then BRD at level 90 raid like DSR and TOP every 120 seconds would lose 800DPS than before, And right now the song does no do damage, that's 1100 DPS in the DSR and TOP, That can't be compensated for simply by extending Battle Voice and Radiant Finale to 20 seconds.

Furthermore, extending Battle Voice and Radiant Finale to 20 seconds, while Raging Strikes remains at 20 seconds, will cause the buff durations of Raging Strikes and Battle Voice/Radiant Finale to be inconsistent. This may lead to a rigid and inflexible rotation in order to maximize DPS.

Based on the current changes, the rotation looks like this:

https://s2.loli.net/2024/06/08/ow64ibRgLSdnMP7.png

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Yeah, not being able to fit the entire duration of Raging Strikes under raid buffs is kinda weird. Also glad someone else is pointing out the damage loss from songs no longer having damage tied to them, and the weird level 94 trait. I hope these concerns can be addressed.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Thinking they could also let BRD do what PCT can do with their paintings, and play their songs out of combat, and they don't have a cooldown so they can prep their coda before a fight. Perhaps songs played out of combat can even grant Soul Voice gauge so they can have an Apex, and Blast Arrow ready.

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Sure, I understand the idea and it's not bad on its own, but do we really want to homogenize damage profiles even further?

Been 4 years and still nothing fun is done with Soul gauge. Not even a ability to raise it like manafication (abit too late now that gauge skills are being reaped)

Took a peek at the JP forums, and it appears we are generally on the same page regarding the weak opener, missing potency from songs no longer dealing damage, Raging Strikes slight misalignment with party buffs, and the concerning level 94 trait. So hopefully these get addressed for launch.

At least we got QoL improvements, I still wish Dancer was the burst buffer while Bard was a sustain buffer.
Not sure how I feel about the Barrage attack proc but my dislike of Radiant Finale pretty much made me indifferent to the new move attached to it, would of been nice to lean into utility a little bit more and maybe added a combat movement speed buff or something. Hopefully Bard damage will be better this expansion, hopefully the dots have some sort of interaction we are currently unaware of instead of them just being there for damage, though even keeping them is a blessing to be honest. I do like that the Radiant Finale attack having a magical effect, its refreshing to have at least one unique damage animation tied to the musical aspect of the job instead of the bow aspect. Also add add damage to Repelling Shot again, not because it needs it but just because its funny.