Novice Network limitation needs an update

Before commenting about how or why you personally don't like NN, that isn't the point of this post, nobody will force you into it, this is just for the purposes of improving current intended design.

Novice Network is a system designed with the intention of veteran players facilitating smooth integration into the game by new players through answering questions and providing a welcoming social environment in a shared channel accessible throughout a single world.

We've seen over time that there has been drama involving mentors of course, but overall, many players appreciate and enjoy the system and its social aspect has helped make the game feel more alive for most, and especially those not in an FC.

So the problem i'd like to address is the population cap.

Mentors - 100
Novices - 400

This is absurdly small, understandably for the purposes of making sure the chat isn't flooded at all times. However ultimately for the growth this game has seen I feel as though this is detrimental to the potential new player experience.

to put the above numbers in perspective, novice network was introduced in heavensward patch 3.2 - Source

the population at this time was roughly around 6-7 million concurrent players globally.
around 3 million on NA servers, 2 million in jp, 2 million in eu.
by world the average player count was about
170k in NA, 80k in jp, and 200k in eu.
Source

the novice/mentor limits were the same back then as they are now, and yes 8 years ago people were complaining about this pop cap too so in all honesty i don't expect very much traction.

However, the population has increased by about 4x, with 29 million concurrent players globally.
14 million on NA servers, 6 million on JP, 8 million in EU, and 300k in OCE.
by world average it becomes immediately apparent why the current novice limitations aren't sustainable:
NA - roughly 500k per world (0.1% have access to NN)
JP - roughly 170k per world (0.3%)
EU - roughly 400k per world (0.13%)
OCE - roughly 70k per world (0.7%)
Source

Solution - Create multiple channels for novice network.

With most new expansions we've seen zones be instanced into 3 for the relaxation of congestion experienced across each server, and as the population stabilized as players finished what they were interested in doing and unsubscribed for the remainder of the patch, the zone instances were removed or re-introduced as was necessary.

So just do this for novice network. Have separate channels exist during periods of high player activity, especially so during influxes of new players, retain the same mentor/novice limit per channel, and dissolve the extra channels to funnel people back into the single regular channel most people would be accustomed to during low traffic periods.

It is very rare to see the cap for novices/returnees actually be reached.
The number of mentors in the NN often hit the cap, but not novices.
As long as the mentors in the NN can answer questions, there doesn't need to be more of them.

So, I don't see any actual problem here that needs to be solved.

I never knew this even existed until now.

It won't matter, you'll still have 10 mentors just talking about random stuff while the 400 sprouts either ask unanswered questions, or stay silent.

nah most mentors as it stands now really arent useful and just use it as their personal chat or when they feel like they are on a power trip.

Honestly... Remove any form of moderation that mentors have over the novice network. Just have it as a global chat, with an overall player cap with multiple channels to accommodate for the player cap.

Novice Network should never have been a thing, should've been a global chat from the beginning, nothing more, nothing less.

The only time I've seen the NN completely oversaturated for sprouts was during the WoW exodus, where it was impossible to invite more than half of the new players at any given time.

As an active mentor in those channels, I am also strongly opposed to splitting them into multiple instances. One of the biggest boons of NN for a lot of new players is to find a social venue for them to find friends, talk with people, etc. If whenever they connect they don't have the guarantee to find their friends and the community they're having fun within, it's going to detract extremely badly from the benefits the game gains from this system and it shouldn't be underestimated (else if you want a dead channel with only a couple of questions from time to time, go visit JP worlds and see how dreadful NN is there). If one has to really increase the amounts, then go over the 10 bits limit (512) and crank it up to 1024 or something, but I don't think it's really mandatory right now.

Edit: I saw you mentioned "in times of big activity", which is less of a problem but... what would decide this? I fear it would last unnecessarily long for little reason, seeing how long the map instancing lasts itself at patch releases (until next patch usually)...

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Originally Posted by MsMisato

nah most mentors as it stands now really arent useful and just use it as their personal chat or when they feel like they are on a power trip.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Honestly... Remove any form of moderation that mentors have over the novice network. Just have it as a global chat, with an overall player cap with multiple channels to accommodate for the player cap.

Novice Network should never have been a thing, should've been a global chat from the beginning, nothing more, nothing less.

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I'm not opposed to global chats, but no. If your NN sucks, it's sad for new players. Ours is great and works well.

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However, the population has increased by about 4x, with 29 million concurrent players globally.
14 million on NA servers, 6 million on JP, 8 million in EU, and 300k in OCE.
by world average it becomes immediately apparent why the current novice limitations aren't sustainable:
NA - roughly 500k per world (0.1% have access to NN)
JP - roughly 170k per world (0.3%)
EU - roughly 400k per world (0.13%)
OCE - roughly 70k per world (0.7%)

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Important note - the "population" numbers are the total # of characters created over the lifetime of the game, not "concurrent" or presently active players. If you look further into the census for data that represents "active characters", you'll see it averages ~25k per world on NA and between 1.4-1.5 million total active characters across all regions.

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Originally Posted by Valence

The only time I've seen the NN completely oversaturated for sprouts was during the WoW exodus, where it was impossible to invite more than half of the new players at any given time.

As an active mentor in those channels, I am also strongly opposed to splitting them into multiple instances. One of the biggest boons of NN for a lot of new players is to find a social venue for them to find friends, talk with people, etc. If whenever they connect they don't have the guarantee to find their friends and the community they're having fun within, it's going to detract extremely badly from the benefits the game gains from this system and it shouldn't be underestimated (else if you want a dead channel with only a couple of questions from time to time, go visit JP worlds and see how dreadful NN is there). If one has to really increase the amounts, then go over the 10 bits limit (512) and crank it up to 1024 or something, but I don't think it's really mandatory right now.

Edit: I saw you mentioned "in times of big activity", which is less of a problem but... what would decide this? I fear it would last unnecessarily long for little reason, seeing how long the map instancing lasts itself at patch releases (until next patch usually)...





I'm not opposed to global chats, but no. If your NN sucks, it's sad for new players. Ours is great and works well.

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Functionally, it wouldn't matter -- All you'd be essentially doing is allowing people in regardless of whether or not they have sprout status, and whether or not they have mentor status, equally, there would be nothing stopping a global chat from functioning in a similar way to NN wherein new players and ask questions, and more veteran players answering said questions.

The only drastic change would effectively be that it would be open to all players, and it would take the moderation aspect away from mentors -- Mentors shouldn't be moderators, in no universe should they be designated moderators. The game has GMs for a reason.

TBH just increase the amount of mentors to like 150, while removing 50 from the 412 sprouts. I've never seen more than about 320 sprouts during peak hours on a big patch day. Alternatively, just double both numbers. To assist in this whole situation, players who don't intend to participate in NN conversations could just leave the novice network, rather than simply filtering it out. Turn off auto join setting, and this will help to keep spots free for those who wish to use it for it's intended purpose.

There's a bad side to having too many mentors in novice network though, at least in NA. One sprout can ask one simple question and then 10 mentors start arguing over the small details that don't matter, or they start speaking as if the sprout should have a high end content mindset. Does the sprout ever even get their answer? Sometimes.

It doesn't matter. And if the NN is removed nothing of value will be lost.

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Originally Posted by 1313

TBH just increase the amount of mentors to like 150, while removing 150 from the 412 sprouts. I've never seen more than about 320 sprouts during peak hours on a big patch day. Alternatively, just double both numbers. To assist in this whole situation, players who don't intend to participate in NN conversations could just leave the novice network, rather than simply filtering it out. Turn off auto join setting, and this will help to keep spots free for those who wish to use it for it's intended purpose.

There's a bad side to having too many mentors in novice network though, at least in NA. One sprout can ask one simple question and then 10 mentors start arguing over the small details that don't matter, or they start speaking as if the sprout should have a high end content mindset. Does the sprout ever even get their answer? Sometimes.

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Our NN is constantly between 300 and 400 sprouts in peak time, and that's without the preferred server bonus right now. If yours isn't it's because your mentors aren't doing their job at inviting a lot. Inviting new blood is also one of the key ingredients for a successful NN because it prevents staleness.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Functionally, it wouldn't matter -- All you'd be essentially doing is allowing people in regardless of whether or not they have sprout status, and whether or not they have mentor status, equally, there would be nothing stopping a global chat from functioning in a similar way to NN wherein new players and ask questions, and more veteran players answering said questions.

The only drastic change would effectively be that it would be open to all players, and it would take the moderation aspect away from mentors -- Mentors shouldn't be moderators, in no universe should they be designated moderators. The game has GMs for a reason.

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It would be diametrically opposite, because you wouldn't be able to moderate said chat. The very reason some NNs are successful is precisely because trolls and toxic idiots can be removed on sight.

GMs are useless, and anyway are a different solution for a different problem, they act after the deed and bring possible punishment, but they do not nip a problem in the bud.

I wouldn't mind a feedback system implemented for the true sprouts so they can rate the mentor network or specific mentors

Surely nobody is going to abuse that system.

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

I wouldn't mind a feedback system implemented for the true sprouts so they can rate the mentor network or specific mentors

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hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahaha NO

What those "Fake Mentors" need is a global chat. Give them that, then a good amount of them will move over to the global chat. Which isn't bad IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

I wouldn't mind a feedback system implemented for the true sprouts so they can rate the mentor network or specific mentors

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Ever heard of "Review Bombing"?

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Ever heard of "Review Bombing"?

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Ever heard of people getting handed punishments for being a shitty person? Happens often in this game.

The mentor cap has needed an increase for a long time, this should definitely be looked into.

The mentor cap doesn't need to be increased because the channel doesn't exist for the sake of mentors.

What is needed is a global chat because that's what the majority of players are looking for - a place to chat with other players about whatever. Linkshells don't fill that need because the cap is based on members whether they are online or offline. Linkshells themselves would be improved and a viable alternative if they worked like Novice Network chat does.

I'm totally not opposed to a general chat somewhere as long as NN remains for what it is designed for. One thing they could start with is by making NN chat access opt-in at every login and not be automatic. I do believe it would already solve a lot of the congestion.

Not only am I opposed to a global chat, I'm opposed to players using NN like it is one.
We gotta start removing people who use it as their social outlet.

Ive never seen the Novice Network too full on sprouts, and I think that it would be counter productive to add more mentors. Too many people giving advice.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Not only am I opposed to a global chat, I'm opposed to players using NN like it is one.
We gotta start removing people who use it as their social outlet.

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And then you end up with dead NNs like on JP.

Not saying that it should turn into a shitposting general chat, that's why I dread letting everyone access it without any moderation, but the whole point of NN and what makes it work in the instances where it works is precisely because it offers a comfy social setting for new players that have no other outlet to find friends and social groups. The whole point of mentors if they're decent is being able to cut through the chatter when required and make sure any question takes the absolute priority over anything else.

If adding a general chat somewhere else in the game to draw away all the shitposters, i'm all for it.

I see your point of view and I agree in theory. However, in practice, the NN should probably just be deleted and nothing of value would be lost. I lasted about a week in there before I left when I was new. On Zodiark at least, a group of high level players used it to argue about game balance, 80% of it was in non-English languages and if an actual newbie asked a question, they would either not get an answer or get told off for interrupting the conversation. Honestly, the entire mentoring system is garbage, but NN especially.

Add global chat(s) and 90% of the issues with NN would have been solved!

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Add global chat(s) and 90% of the issues with NN would have been solved!

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Exactly. Anyone who is opposed to a global chat is just scared no one would join their crappy linkshells anymore.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

I see your point of view and I agree in theory. However, in practice, the NN should probably just be deleted and nothing of value would be lost. I lasted about a week in there before I left when I was new. On Zodiark at least, a group of high level players used it to argue about game balance, 80% of it was in non-English languages and if an actual newbie asked a question, they would either not get an answer or get told off for interrupting the conversation. Honestly, the entire mentoring system is garbage, but NN especially.

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I've been active on NNs since it was introduced on HW and I have seen so many players that would just disagree. The amount of sprouts that don't want to leave the channel is crazy. The amount of those actually working to get mentor with the intent to help in turn is also crazy.

It just saddens me that some NNs are such wastelands that it makes people say they're useless.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Not only am I opposed to a global chat, I'm opposed to players using NN like it is one.
We gotta start removing people who use it as their social outlet.

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For that a global chat is the only solution. As general chat has a very important function within the community: connecting players. If the NN cannot be used for that, then those sprouts will always feel like they are alone, no linkshells to be invited to. And with luck a random FC invite. Its totaly not helpfull if the system only works like that.

And note, even if you are not engaging in the conversation, you can still figure out a lot of general behaviour things etc. This will make it easier to connect with other players. Social chat is EXTREMELY important in an MMO, its a massive reason why they are still being played. It is essential to get new players to interact in order to make them stay and enjoy. Even if that interaction is just reading.

Also, the mentor requirements are horrible and not helping at getting good mentors. They are fine as a filter to get some people to at least be able to moderate. But expecting good advice is often just not going to happen. You at best can get a meta advice which rarely is what sprouts truly ask for. Being a good mentor is a skill the game cannot measure. And for this allowing more mentors in the chat would help.

Either by making the chatbox larger in people allowed, or by seperating them in 2 groups, so this pure mentor chat becomes less required to most.

There is no metric or any amount of filters or requirements that will be able to determine who is a good helper or gives good advice.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I've been active on NNs since it was introduced on HW and I have seen so many players that would just disagree. The amount of sprouts that don't want to leave the channel is crazy. The amount of those actually working to get mentor with the intent to help in turn is also crazy.

It just saddens me that some NNs are such wastelands that it makes people say they're useless.

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It's so common to see people upset about leaving that I have to wonder what the bad NN's are like or where I can find them. I used to think it might vary world by world or that I just hadn't mentored long enough, but after many years, multiple characters, and the ability to world travel it's still hard to find genuinely bad NN chats. There are occasional issues in the networks but they get sorted out quickly the vast majority of the time. The social aspect is part of the charm and only makes the mentoring system more effective.

I think it's been four months since I left the NN and never returned.
On my server, the Mentors, and Sprouts talk far too often about their real lives, about other games, telling spoilers and ruining other Player's fun.
Now and then, some Mentors and Sprouts bully another Player for no apparent reason.
Then there is this Mentors / Sprout Gang who immediately kick every Player as soon as they write a 0 O , or . in the chat. It's always a real witch hunt.

I am here to have fun, and NN is no fun at all. 96% of those Sprouts in NN are Free To Play Players, abusing the Chat like they would pay a dime for this Game.
The State of NN is no longer acceptable and should be completely reworked.
A large group of Sprouts becomes Mentors without even knowing anything about this game.
I have seen new Mentors writing in the Chat: Look who is now a Mentor ? :o) Please don't ask me questions about Crafting, PvP, Dungeons, Raids, Trials or anything else. I can't answer any of those Questions.
Sprouts becomes Mentors just for the Power Trip, and that is simply abusing the system. There are Sprouts Level 1-5 in the NN who never make a single level, they are simply there 24/7/365.
I know players who create a free second account just for the NN so that 1 character is always in the NN while they play normally with their main account.

A Simple Solution for this is

Remove Mentor Status - Change the Novice Network to a Global Chat for 1000 Players and if the Chat reaches it's limits, a second Chat will be open. Give the Chat a small new System. Like Reporting disturbing behavior, spam, Names. Create a simple Voting System just like a commendation System, where you can vote a + or a - for good or bad behavior. If a Player has 100 - Points he gets blocked in the Chat for a while. That system needs some tweaks so that it can't be abused.

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Originally Posted by Aneshda

Then there is this Mentors / Sprout Gang who immediately kick every Player as soon as they write a 0 O , or . in the chat. It's always a real witch hunt.

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Certainly there's abuse going on in some NNs but I don't see kicking the bots that some mentors invite for the sake of annoying NN as a problem. It's the bots that are putting "0" into the chat because something has disrupted their script. Usually the character name will make it obvious that it's a bot as well.

If some player thinks they're being funny by also typing "0" into chat then gets mad that they've been kicked from NN for 30 minutes, hopefully they've learned a lesson.

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Originally Posted by Aneshda

I think it's been four months since I left the NN and never returned.
On my server, the Mentors, and Sprouts talk far too often about their real lives, about other games, telling spoilers and ruining other Player's fun.
Now and then, some Mentors and Sprouts bully another Player for no apparent reason.
Then there is this Mentors / Sprout Gang who immediately kick every Player as soon as they write a 0 O , or . in the chat. It's always a real witch hunt.

I am here to have fun, and NN is no fun at all. 96% of those Sprouts in NN are Free To Play Players, abusing the Chat like they would pay a dime for this Game.
The State of NN is no longer acceptable and should be completely reworked.
A large group of Sprouts becomes Mentors without even knowing anything about this game.
I have seen new Mentors writing in the Chat: Look who is now a Mentor ? :o) Please don't ask me questions about Crafting, PvP, Dungeons, Raids, Trials or anything else. I can't answer any of those Questions.
Sprouts becomes Mentors just for the Power Trip, and that is simply abusing the system. There are Sprouts Level 1-5 in the NN who never make a single level, they are simply there 24/7/365.
I know players who create a free second account just for the NN so that 1 character is always in the NN while they play normally with their main account.

A Simple Solution for this is

Remove Mentor Status - Change the Novice Network to a Global Chat for 1000 Players and if the Chat reaches it's limits, a second Chat will be open. Give the Chat a small new System. Like Reporting disturbing behavior, spam, Names. Create a simple Voting System just like a commendation System, where you can vote a + or a - for good or bad behavior. If a Player has 100 - Points he gets blocked in the Chat for a while. That system needs some tweaks so that it can't be abused.

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Unless you're posting with another character than the one you play with, i'm a little confounded to read that. Are you playing on FF14's mirror universe or something?

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Originally Posted by Valence

Unless you're posting with another character than the one you play with, i'm a little confounded to read that. Are you playing on FF14's mirror universe or something?

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It's not my fault if you don't pay enough attention to the chat on Novice Network. And then to suggest that I'm lying or imagining it all is outrageous.

It may not be the same on all servers but pretty much every time I’ve been in NN, I have been met with locker room conversations and some mentors that behave as if they owned the place. As a woman, it made me feel really uncomfortable and I left disgusted. I never invited anyone to NN because of that. I prefer to help outside NN.