Consequences Doesn't Necessarily Mean Death

I've read a lot of discussion recently about people complaining about lack of consequences and I think there's been a lot of discussion around the need for death (or a lack of need in the counterargument).

But I think we've also seen a lack of other smaller consequences that have left us with feeling of unchangingness. Losing a limb, a sense, the ability to manipulate aether, the ability to walk, a friendship, a sense of self, or status are all major consequences as well. Becoming a fugitive or the enemy of the state are, too.

We've seen some of that, but increasingly less frequently. Even small consequences or changes of status seem to have disappeared from the main cast. And it removes all tension when you get that gut feeling that nothing major is going to happen to them.

Our heroes are no longer dealing with significant loss or forced change and the few times we do see it, it sticks with us. Dealing with loss and the threat of loss is a big part of being human and crucial element to a lot of storytelling. Death is just one form, but there are so many impactful forms of loss that can be explored.

I mean, they have died multiple times, it's just that they keep coming back.

Y'shtola for example has done it so many times it's a cliche and the big problem is that she can NEVER die for real, she's far too popular both as merchandizing and amongst the playerbase. It's like trying to kill Superman, the guy is immortal not just because he's a Kryptonian but also because he's the lead character for a super lucrative comic line with merchandise being sold globally on the daily dedicated to just him, it's not going to happen and anyone that thinks otherwise has no concept of marketing or business.

That said I don't understand why people want any of the main cast to actually die anyways, they're all fun enjoyable characters that have been built up for 10 years, go kill off Raubahn if you need someone to die, the dude has been less than useless since Stormblood anyways.

The changes to the scions in ARR were mainly to differentiate them, if you think about it. They were all kinda the same until that happened.

Thancred became a person who had to focus on physical fighting and physical skills. Y'shtola's desire to overcome her blindness gained her a super power in seeing just aether. Urianger was already the scholar/book person. Yda was also a physical fighter but they gave her an actual backstory. Minfilia was pushed out of the story because they wanted to replace her with Alisaie and Alphinaud. And they couldn't salvage the others.

And they have given new characters interesting things (Estinien's connection to nidhogg being somewhat a super power and being a dragoon, Gosetsu being a Samurai and developing injuries along the way).

They haven't really done a lot to further injure or hinder the actual main cast since. I just think this is because they achieved their goal at the end of ARR of transforming them from bland characters that were exactly the same, to people who bring unique attributes to the table. But they have been willing to develop temporary characters that aren't part of the scions, even recently injuring Arenvald and putting Fordola through an ordeal. Most likely Wuk Lamat will have a whole load of development that the scions won't get as well.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

The changes to the scions in ARR were mainly to differentiate them, if you think about it. They were all kinda the same until that happened.

Thancred became a person who had to focus on physical fighting and physical skills. Y'shtola's desire to overcome her blindness gained her a super power in seeing just aether. Urianger was already the scholar/book person. Yda was also a physical fighter but they gave her an actual backstory. Minfilia was pushed out of the story because they wanted to replace her with Alisaie and Alphinaud. And they couldn't salvage the others.

And they have given new characters interesting things (Estinien's connection to nidhogg being somewhat a super power and being a dragoon, Gosetsu being a Samurai and developing injuries along the way).

They haven't really done a lot to further injure or hinder the actual main cast since. I just think this is because they achieved their goal at the end of ARR of transforming them from bland characters that were exactly the same, to people who bring unique attributes to the table. But they have been willing to develop temporary characters that aren't part of the scions, even recently injuring Arenvald and putting Fordola through an ordeal. Most likely Wuk Lamat will have a whole load of development that the scions won't get as well.

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Changes to the characters and having them change to overcome loss is part of character development as you're saying. That doesn't mean they have to be done. They can still suffer loss and find ways to overcome it. Gosetsu loses the physical stamina to be a Samurai, putting up his sword after losing someone he cared about. There's also Raubahn losing his arm, as I alluded to earlier.

I don't think we need to personally lose someone. We can also watch those we care about lose people. While I never cared that much about Minfillia, I knew enough about her and cared that Thancred did care about her deeply and connected with his emotions which helped me understood his interactions with Ryne.

The audience knows that a lot of the main cast probably won't stay dead, but they may stay dismembered, depressed, maimed, etc. I could see Alphinaud losing the ability to speak, Alisae losing her sword arm and getting a prosthetic, Urianger losing Moenbryda's parents, Y'shtola having to deal with Maytoya going through dementia and losing her knowledge.

They each have things they care about deeply that don't require the character die. You just need them to lose something that they deeply, deeply care about.

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Originally Posted by Sjol

The audience knows that a lot of the main cast probably won't stay dead, but they may stay dismembered, depressed, maimed, etc. I could see Alphinaud losing the ability to speak, Alisae losing her sword arm and getting a prosthetic, Urianger losing Moenbryda's parents, Y'shtola having to deal with Maytoya going through dementia and losing her knowledge.

They each have things they care about deeply that don't require the character die. You just need them to lose something that they deeply, deeply care about.

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Why though.

Other long running media have characters that are static for 10+ years and have fake-out deaths (Stargate SG-1) and I never see conversations around wishing someone would lose a limb there. Characters don't necessarily need to suffer or die in order for a story to be compelling.

FFXIV's main cast have already all had a lot of things happen to them that they had to overcome. Alphinaud had his wide-eyed political idealism thrown back into his face when his private military went and did a coup. Thancred lost his ability to manipulate aether and nearly died fighting Ran'jit while dealing with his angst around Ryne and Minfilia. Urianger lost Moenbryda, Yda lost Papalymo, Estinian had his entire worldview flipped upside down and then got possessed by his archnemesis, Y'shtola lost her sight, and while it doesn't exactly come up as much as I'd wish it, it at least shows she's somewhat vulnerable. They all went through the story together in ShB and EW and nearly died there but because the good guys won, everyone came out battered but alive but it isn't like it was sunshine and rainbows the entire time either.

Requiring to have bad things constantly happen to the main characters over and over just to make the story feel "compelling" feels like torture porn than actual good story-telling. The main characters have already mostly been through their own characterization and suffering so I don't know what else can come of throwing more targetted suffering at them. Krile, Erenville, and Wuk Lamat are being added to the main cast so they'll probably end up going through the forge of characterization in Dawntrail but at this point I think needlessly going back and throwing the other Scions into the blender to have bad things happen to them will just make more people angry than happy.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

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Stargate SG-1 is an interesting comparison. I've seen pretty much the entire franchise, sometimes a couple of times. SG-1 has the heroes fail... a lot. But, being a serialized show, there's a basic need to reset back to something stable in between episodes. Not every show does it that way, but that was SG-1 a lot of the time.

I would also argue that a lot of bad things happened to the main cast with the possible exception of Sam, which was a complaint of the show for a long time. The show starts with O'Neal losing his son and Daniel's losing his wife to the Goa'uld. That's where the show starts. Teal'c sacrifices his position and station in the first episode. Teal'c loses his symbiote and lot of his resistance at one point. They have a lot of near-death experiences. The fact that the situations tend to last an episode instead the entire franchise is a writing choice, but one appropriate to episodic television.

Contrast that to here where our allies barely get hurt or slowed down. We don't even see them fail very often. McCay frequently fails and is one of the reasons he's sufferable. We don't see the struggle for the Scions. And that lack of struggle is why they frequently come off as insufferable. Sam from SG-1 had the same issue. She rarely, if ever, suffered and as a result was a poor character.

Struggling (and sometimes suffering) is what allows the Scions to be bastions. Without that they're the rich man whose never suffered a day in his life telling the poor man who has lost everything that he just needs a better attitude to succeed. Alphinaud was personally obnoxious to me for most of ARR and only after the Banquet that I actually start to like him as a character -- because he had learned perspective and humility. The hero's journey includes struggle as a necessary component. But their success rate has moved the needle from struggling to just doing. And if they are struggling, the game is having trouble showing it.

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Originally Posted by Sjol

Stargate SG-1 is an interesting comparison.

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At this point I feel like FFXIV is basically a serialized MMO with every iteration being its own episode/movie with the same characters, for good or ill. Running them through a gauntlet of suffering every single episode is going to get tiring which is why every expansion also has a rotating cast of potentially sacrificial side-characters. After they came out with the Trust System, I decided that there was no way anything bad was going to happen to the Scions again because they were enshrined in a part of the game where you could level them up. Now that the biggest thing ever to happen in the entire world has been resolved, Dawntrail feels like a sidequest and it won't have the same effect if say Thancred finally bites the bullet or gets forcefully retired through injury.


I think one problem is that FFXIV sits in an awkward spot with more content, more new story updates, and a much longer life than a single-player FF where anything can happen and it's all in a self-contained story, but less content than a TV show that has a main cast that is pretty much static. This means that there's not quite as much time as a TV show that has characters go through new problems and solve them every 45 minutes, giving them the chance to show new facets with many more problems than our FFXIV cast has gone through. But they're the main cast of something that's gone on much longer than a single-player experience so it's that much more dire to have something terrible to happen to them.

I nearly gave up on Atlantis after what happened to my favorite character Beckett but he still had a sort of reset by the end anyway. McKay was my next favorite character but I feel like his writing threads a very thin line between annoying smart guy and god's pathetic jingling jester that fails over and over. He's the comic relief but he also has to be hyper-competent and I think that would be difficult to pull off at the same level with say, Alphinaud. They tried it with Y'shtola and the Usual Suspects came into the forums to complain about her torturing familiars or not liking her one haha moment for other reasons.


Though I can see how Y'shtola is basically Sam Carter now and I don't think that'll ever leave my head...

Coming the Garlemald towards the beginning of the EW expansion was interesting considering that we are so used to getting thanks and praise just about everywhere we go, to being rejected, shunned, and outright hated by the citizens. It is just never really shown how the Scion's endeavors has affected the lives of those who are collaterally damaged from the conflicts. These people are innocent, and have lost members of their family as a direct result of these engagements. Many blame the WoL directly. This was a tough pill to swallow for sure. This was one of the things that really captured me early on in the expansion before the MSQ kind of falls off a cliff.

The end of days arriving on Etheirys left very little evidence that it was ever a threat. While I continue to find it implausible that not even a single Scion was lost, what makes zero sense is there was no change to the landscape, geography, or even the livelihoods to the population on the planet. I think it's things like this that has reduced my enthusiasm for the upcoming expansion, because if there isn't going to be any kind of significant consequence when existence itself is at stake, then what is going to evoke the sense of urgency for something less impactful?

I guess we'll find out.

Eh.

Barring like, Krile and the twins, I feel like I'm just...... really over the Scions at this point.
I'm ready for new characters to slowly be in the limelight. It might sound kinda cynical but I just don't find the Scions to be very interesting to me anymore. They have reached a point of utter and total stability in their character arcs. This ain't to say one ought to just throw away a character once their arc is "done", no. It's just I kinda doubt the writers' ability to engage me with these characters in any way I might find interesting.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I nearly gave up on Atlantis after what happened to my favorite character Beckett but he still had a sort of reset by the end anyway. McKay was my next favorite character but I feel like his writing threads a very thin line between annoying smart guy and god's pathetic jingling jester that fails over and over. He's the comic relief but he also has to be hyper-competent and I think that would be difficult to pull off at the same level with say, Alphinaud. They tried it with Y'shtola and the Usual Suspects came into the forums to complain about her torturing familiars or not liking her one haha moment for other reasons.


Though I can see how Y'shtola is basically Sam Carter now and I don't think that'll ever leave my head...

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I actually liked Y'shtola's vulnerability and the reminder that at one point she was a child and awkward and that she could be embarrassed. That people come in here and complain that their favorite character isn't perfect is sad to me, but then there are lots of people who forget that characters serve the story and not the other way around.

Taking it back to TV writing, SG-1 and a lot of serialized ensemble shows follow a similar pattern for breaking down season structure as 1-2 focus episodes per character and then the rest is plot-forwarding. But the focus episodes are critical for character development and having us see that the people are still human even though they're galivanting across the universe. Sometimes you'd get a peek behind the scenes where you get to see the characters trying to have a life. The number of lovers that die on SG-1, it kind of becomes a dangerous thing to be one of their partners. Sam even has a section on her being a Black Widow. SG-1 was also a show where we had a good idea of who wasn't going to die, but that doesn't mean nothing bad ever happened to them. The groundhog's day episode still remains one of my favorites. We laugh with the character because how else are you going to survive something that insanity-inducing.

And I agree that not every character works for every kind of role. Honestly, I think the lighter moments could come from the main cast and not necessarily be relegated so much to "merchandising opportunities".

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Originally Posted by Boa-Noah

I mean, they have died multiple times, it's just that they keep coming back.

Y'shtola for example has done it so many times it's a cliche and the big problem is that she can NEVER die for real, she's far too popular both as merchandizing and amongst the playerbase. It's like trying to kill Superman, the guy is immortal not just because he's a Kryptonian but also because he's the lead character for a super lucrative comic line with merchandise being sold globally on the daily dedicated to just him, it's not going to happen and anyone that thinks otherwise has no concept of marketing or business.

That said I don't understand why people want any of the main cast to actually die anyways, they're all fun enjoyable characters that have been built up for 10 years, go kill off Raubahn if you need someone to die, the dude has been less than useless since Stormblood anyways.

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Alphinaud is way more annoying than enjoyable - I became thoroughly fed up with his excessive monologuing in Endwalker.

Honestly I think people would be less sick of the Scions being mostly static if they were allowed to ever take a back seat for a full expansion cycle. The set up for DT was perfect to put them to the side and let their constant omnipresence not grate on people who are tired of them while also making the people who want them around not have to deal with their faves being outright killed off, but it didn't happen.

I keep hoping that Arenvald and Fordola will come back as a B plot, at least. Those two have definitely suffered some non-death consequences of their actions, and yet they still have so much more they can contribute to the story.

Arenvald has to learn how to be a leader from behind a desk, and Fordola has to live forever with the reflection of the suffering she caused others, even as she finds new purpose as his legs.

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Originally Posted by Hazama999

Eh.

Barring like, Krile and the twins, I feel like I'm just...... really over the Scions at this point.
I'm ready for new characters to slowly be in the limelight. It might sound kinda cynical but I just don't find the Scions to be very interesting to me anymore. They have reached a point of utter and total stability in their character arcs. This ain't to say one ought to just throw away a character once their arc is "done", no. It's just I kinda doubt the writers' ability to engage me with these characters in any way I might find interesting.

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I really think the same. Their stories are over.

That Krile becomes more of a main character in DT is good news, she is here since HW but barely had any screentime.

Alisaie has become a boring side character as well. But that means she still a has lot of potential for character growth.

But the others? They should step down to a cameo appearance here and there.

Assuming that we stay aligned with wuk lamet there is every possibility that he ends up an antagonist but I’d really like to see them give a lot of screen time to wuk’s brother (the miqote)

I know we are sick of stuffy sharlayan scholars but having someone potentially in opposition to wuk still be an ally to the WOL would be a nice dynamic and if they need to maintain a Scholar for exposition I’d rather it be him than y’shtola/urianger/g’raha

It would also be nice getting a new “studied in sharlayan but isn’t a stuffy scholar” sort of like old thancred from HW so to speak

I’m honestly worried though, I’m tired of the scions but i really don’t like wuk so far and erenville feels like a side character they stuffed into the limelight and had to hastily add a backstory to. He really doesn’t strike me as an expansion driving character like emet or hien (same as wuk)

Introducing a character who becomes a part of the "main cast" for a bit, but then actually turns into an antagonist through some sort of moral degeneration arc, would be interesting to me.

Some thoughts:

"Y'shtola for example has done it so many times it's a cliche" ... As a reminder, Y'shtola has been rescued from the Lifestream exactly twice. The first time was in Heavensward two-thirds of the way through the expansion. The second was in Shadowbringers, released four years later.

The first time was an act of desperation, the second time was a calculated risk. Two instances do not make something a "cliche". That term has been, in my opinion, overused because posters have been exposed to passing remarks about it, both pro and con, on a regular basis over the last five years.

I suspect Y'shtola is way more popular with the Japanese audience than the Western audience. From what I've seen, she's been a marketing icon for the game in both 1.0 and 2.0 versions. She's the only FFXIV character in Final Fantasy games such as Dissidia, and I'm looking at 14 other FF-related games where she also appears.

Familiarity and popularity are the key reasons one does not remove characters from an ongoing MMORPG. I have personally despised some of the characters from World of Warcraft for three quarters of the life of that game.

Why are they still there? Familiarity and popularity of continuing characters keep more people playing. It's the same formula one sees in Japanese manga and anime as well.

(And the bane of Chinese donghua where villains spend up to 100 episodes before the hero actually gets to battle them one last time).

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Some thoughts:

"Y'shtola for example has done it so many times it's a cliche" ... As a reminder, Y'shtola has been rescued from the Lifestream exactly twice. The first time was in Heavensward two-thirds of the way through the expansion. The second was in Shadowbringers, released four years later.

The first time was an act of desperation, the second time was a calculated risk. Two instances do not make something a "cliche". That term has been, in my opinion, overused because posters have been exposed to passing remarks about it, both pro and con, on a regular basis over the last five years.

I suspect Y'shtola is way more popular with the Japanese audience than the Western audience. From what I've seen, she's been a marketing icon for the game in both 1.0 and 2.0 versions. She's the only FFXIV character in Final Fantasy games such as Dissidia, and I'm looking at 14 other FF-related games where she also appears.

Familiarity and popularity are the key reasons one does not remove characters from an ongoing MMORPG. I have personally despised some of the characters from World of Warcraft for three quarters of the life of that game.

Why are they still there? Familiarity and popularity of continuing characters keep more people playing. It's the same formula one sees in Japanese manga and anime as well.

(And the bane of Chinese donghua where villains spend up to 100 episodes before the hero actually gets to battle them one last time).

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SPOILERS AHEAD FOR ANY NEW PLAYERS READING
Let's not forget her near death experience with Zenos slicing through her. Using the blood from the mouth trope that had many people suspecting that she may die, and slap on her "death" in EW. You know the point people are making is that SHE is the one who is targeted a lot for these "sacrificial lamb" moments. Don't act like it's not overdone when EVERY expansion so far has had something in hand with her "dying". HW only counts because that's the expac bringing her back.

Yup. She's popular. Like many beloved anime and manga (and video game) characters who Do Not Die.

Zenos in Stormblood isn't a particularly good example though. Blood from the mouth is a well known trope in Chinese donghua. You take a big hit and spit up blood, wiping the trailing edge from the corner of your mouth. And then you get back up and Fight to Win, or you get dragged off of the arena to fight another day. It's like those Wuxia/Xanxia heroes and villains are nearly immortal or something. [Pun intended].

I've seen a lot of similarity in Japanese manga and anime.

As far as the end of main story in Endwalker, you have to realize that the entire game ends immediately with the 6.0 MSQ if there are no survivors. Including your Warrior of Light. Lack of bodies should have been your first hint. The Power of Future Marketing should have been your second hint.

That, and the Ghost of Christmas Futu.... er, the aetheric entity formerly known as Emet Selch is still relatively powerful.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Yup. She's popular. Like many beloved anime and manga (and video game) characters who Do Not Die.

Zenos in Stormblood isn't a particularly good example though. Blood from the mouth is a well known trope in Chinese donghua. You take a big hit and spit up blood, wiping the trailing edge from the corner of your mouth. And then you get back up and Fight to Win, or you get dragged off of the arena to fight another day. It's like those Wuxia/Xanxia heroes and villains are nearly immortal or something. [Pun intended].

I've seen a lot of similarity in Japanese manga and anime.

As far as the end of main story in Endwalker, you have to realize that the entire game ends immediately with the 6.0 MSQ if there are no survivors. Including your Warrior of Light. Lack of bodies should have been your first hint. The Power of Future Marketing should have been your second hint.

That, and the Ghost of Christmas Futu.... er, the aetheric entity formerly known as Emet Selch is still relatively powerful.

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I never said she should of stayed dead anywhere in that. Just saying you shouldn't act like it's overdone when literally every expac has a moment of something like this happening to her. Regardless of popularity, it's something anyone is gonna get sick of seeing if they've been here since the beginning of the game like you have. And she didn't just get up and wipe the blood off her face. She took a freaking dirt nap from that cut and was out for the most of the base expac if I remember right. That's not something she just got up from, she was seriously injured to make her fans gasp and think she was gonna die lmao. The whole point is she has way too many death baits in the game and it's hard to take any of them remotely seriously. Just like I half bet we're gonna get another fake death from Shtola again in Dawntrail. And btw, in my opinion? Using "The Power of Future Marketing" is a weak excuse to not kill a character in the story. Because then that just makes them write characters who are entirely meant to die, which also just feels cheap. I just want the death baiting to stop till they actually want to kill a character off.

Honestly, I find myself getting bored with the Scions, because they're almost always the "good guys who do good things out of the goodness of their hearts and everyone loves them and they can turn anyone to their side and they're like super strong and can overcome any bad guy." </child writer>

The side characters have been far more compelling for me for multiple expansions, now. Ryne and Gaia were more enjoyable than anything that's happened to the Scions for a while, because they had an open-ended story and development instead of a series of short-term speedbumps.

I get that this sounds petty, but I think that these characters are just entirely played out, like the tenth season of a sitcom.