Proof the graphics update was necessary.

The amount of feedback regarding this update is indicative enough of just how much people care about graphics. I know not everyone is liking the changes, but the point is that how see our characters and the visuals of the world matter so much to us the moment they changed the forums lit up in a way they seldom do. Perhaps you don't like change, and are very disappointed, perhaps you are in love, or somewhere in between, but the undeniable fact is that it clearly MATTERS. And this alone is indication that the devs are working on things that are IMPORTANT to us. Now, hopefully they keep working on them and improving them, but the fact they are willing to go in and work on something so delicate for the players is a commendable act and an example to other game developers to invest in their platforms instead of bleeding them dry.

So thank you developers. Please do not let negativity ever discourage you from working on the hard things and keep improving. When people respond in this fashion to the work you are doing, you know you are working on the core of your product.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GLdGq4sX...jpg&name=large

Source

Characters are about to become dramatically more expressive.

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Originally Posted by Jessica_VS

That never happens over trivial things, does it?

...
this update is a BIG DEAL.

....

because you're obviously nailing it!

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1. When the chatter is backed up by the best preorder sales ever and hundreds of threads no, it doesn't happen over trivial things. I can think of some drama that got semi popular, but not at this scale.
2. Yeah, it is a big deal.
3. I would say so, but then again I look to sales number announcements and the difficulty of the tasks they're working on to gauge this. Not sure what you look at to determine hard work and success.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GLdGq4sX...jpg&name=large

Source

Characters are about to become dramatically more expressive.

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Yep. It will be great for characters to have more expressive range than always reusing the same couple dozen emotes, as was demonstrated in the benchmark.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Characters are about to become dramatically more expressive.

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Do we know if they added more bones for ears? I'd love to see Viera, Miqo'te, and Hrothgar get to use them to emote

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Originally Posted by Jessica_VS

I'm just playfully teasing you about the logical fallacies (ad populum, post hoc ergo propter hoc, appeal to emotion, black or white fallacy, and circular reasoning) in the original post. ;)

I like the visual updates. But . . . 1, correlation does not equate causation (high sales and active discussion do not necessarily validate the quality of the update); 2, restating the assertion that it's a big deal does not make it more (or less) true; 3, this is an appeal to achievement/difficulty, because it's equating sales numbers/difficulty with metrics for success and hard work which don't address the quality of the visual update itself (for instance, it may be really difficult to film a complex and incomprehensible "high art" movie, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily beloved by audiences).

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I get you, I have time too today. But if you're going to take the opposing side for fun you need to provide evidence that counters the argument. So if you want more specifics I would reinforce the points and expect you to come up with evidence of your own that points to the contrary, not just speak vaguely.

1. I feel like you are shifting the goal post, for one the point you made was never about the quality of the update, rather whether this level of chatter happens over trivial things, to which I pointed it does not by citing thread counts and sales numbers. I would like to see you post evidence to the contrary, perhaps 100 threads about some trivial topic would be a good start.
2. Perhaps, so let me assert differently, it is a big deal because Square Enix spent a significant amount of time in their three fan fests talking about the graphical updates, hired new graphical engineers to get this project done, and has made it a major tenet of its marketing strategy to date. If anything the amount of money invested in creating both the change and marketing of this feature should signal just how important it is to SE for its customers to know this graphics update is happening. The community likewise has talked extensively about and made large quantities of feedback, reinforcing evidence that this feature is a big deal to them and they have become aware of SEs efforts.
3. "Quality" was never an argument made in this post, and unfortunately the way you are using it with the example of "high art" means it's completely subjective as art can be both high and low quality depending on who is judging it. I made an argument for value, backing it up with engagement and sales numbers as evidence that their work has been valuable. So I would need evidence to the contrary that what they have done has not created any value. As quality was never discussed, it's a moot point.

Whenever someone says the graphics update was unnecessary, I just remember my favorite part of Endwalker where Hermes comforted a dying sentient lasagna monster.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...5ed222182c4e8&

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Whenever someone says the graphics update was unnecessary, I just remember my favorite part of Endwalker where Hermes comforted a dying sentient lasagna monster.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...5ed222182c4e8&

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That... was pretty bad, yeah.
But on the other hand, you can't really fault people for criticism towards stylistic changes.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Characters are about to become dramatically more expressive.

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[Face 2 Fem Au Ra viewed abit from the side]

I actually noticed a very subtle lip pout on my Au Ra when I was in CC checking her out (during emotes), I never saw it in the current CC...I thought it was really cute. A shame I couldn't screenshot it, it was so brief!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Whenever someone says the graphics update was unnecessary, I just remember my favorite part of Endwalker where Hermes comforted a dying sentient lasagna monster.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...5ed222182c4e8&

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Environment. Armor. Creatures. Almost everything in this game require more graphical attention than the playable character, but at least the playable character is off the list of to-do for the developers. Cannot wait to see updated models for creatures and bosses.

Claim:

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Originally Posted by Ath192

the graphics update was necessary

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Support:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ath192

The amount of feedback regarding this update is indicative enough of just how much people care about graphics.

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Let's put it in a sentence to really get a feel for what you're saying.

"The graphics update was necessary because there is a large amount of feedback about the graphics update."

https://y.yarn.co/bb0637c9-a7bb-48e6...b26fc_text.gif

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Originally Posted by LordMcMutton

Do we know if they added more bones for ears? I'd love to see Viera, Miqo'te, and Hrothgar get to use them to emote

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A few? The picture shows a few more triangles in the ears, but you'd have better luck asking the Twitter account that sourced the image. I just wanted to share it here.

lol

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...618&height=910

was looking for another screencap but the lighting really does show off the Skyrim character geometry here

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...457&height=820

the culinarian quests are...interesting

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...550&height=309

also, I've been playing this game for three years and have never been able to unsee it, but Aymeric's lovely, handsome face doesn't have enough polygons around his lovely, handsome mouth, which makes it look like the corners of his mouth are sewn shut every time he opens it

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...ality=lossless
finally, I love the dragonlancer armor, it is the best in the game, but it always requires me to appreciate the fine cuisine of the crusted jpg (and this is the shinier, better pvp version!)

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...457&height=820

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Originally Posted by Jessica_VS

Hi Ath,

We're not trying to have an argument or anything like that. Like I said, I was joking with you. :)

I suppose we could search through the forum to find examples where high levels of activity (or mentions of sales?) did not correlate with perceived importance. Engagement/activity/interest is not always an indicator of significance or value. For example, remember all the trolling threads from a few weeks ago over sociocultural issues (before these threads were mostly, finally, deleted)? That's plenty of "activity" without real value.

In terms of business, investment size or scope alone is not always congruent with customer benefit or product success (e.g., 1980s over-investment in real estate for commercial malls).

Likewise, sales and initial engagement do not always equate to long-term value (e.g., fidget spinners).

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Yeah you said as much in the beginning I was just trying to put you into a position of defending a point you probably didn’t believe in to see how you’d respond to that workload. Probably for the same reason you tried to mess with me XD.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Claim:

Support:


Let's put it in a sentence to really get a feel for what you're saying.

"The graphics update was necessary because there is a large amount of feedback about the graphics update."

https://y.yarn.co/bb0637c9-a7bb-48e6...b26fc_text.gif

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Yes, that’s how’s businesses work in general. If there is a large interest on a topic and a business monetizes it generally sells well and reaps profit. SE doesn’t need points, they need money. And I need HD textures. As you can see there's a bit of a demand and supply situation going on. Thx.

That time Thancred slipped and fell in mashed potatoes

https://i.imgur.com/cVTP1GJ.png

This sloppy looking decal that looks like a pixelated puffy sticker

https://i.imgur.com/q9cHYRc.jpg

I wanted to cast MY eyeballs into the abyss after seeing this

https://i.imgur.com/CRSzpGK.jpg

also gaia's lipstick has been bugging me for literal years at this point

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...ality=lossless

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Originally Posted by Ancalagon_Blacktalon

also gaia's lipstick has been bugging me for literal years at this point

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...ality=lossless

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Gaia is meant to look like an egirl mutant i think.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ancalagon_Blacktalon

also gaia's lipstick has been bugging me for literal years at this point

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...ality=lossless

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Gaia is meant to look like an egirl mutant i think.

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Regardless of what people individually think of the character.

They don't have to make npcs extra special beyond the PC. just so it becomes liked or important.

The way they make her lips so jarring in contrast always threw off the immersion.

Not like when other characters could have lipstick on their own.

[For I'll, it's jarring that we are forced to accept.
For good, it creates a other demand on SE for better and new customization options.
Reap -> Sow. Show its possible in any way -> New Demand Rises.]

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Gaia is meant to look like an egirl mutant i think.

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ahahaha oh yeah, but it's not the lipstick itself, it's all the jaggies around it. They're really visible in scenes with a lot of light. Like Aymeric, her lovely custom face doesn't have enough polys around the mouth and the textures are too primitive to do a graceful transition from the lipstick to her skin tone.

This is my lion mount. I think he's going blind, but I'm not sure if those are cataracts or reflections in there.

https://i.imgur.com/YTfrGHE.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ath192

This is my lion mount. I think he's going blind, but I'm not sure if those are cataracts or reflections in there.

https://i.imgur.com/YTfrGHE.png

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Good thing you said it was a mount.
If not I might've thought it was the updated Hrothgars considering all the "downgrade" threads I've seen lately. /s

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

Good thing you said it was a mount.
If not I might've thought it was the updated Hrothgars considering all the "downgrade" threads I've seen lately. /s

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Its hairless besides the mane too, it just has white skin. kind of like this cat but white.

https://i.imgur.com/jHTIbAe.jpg

It's a blessing, I genuinely cannot wait to see how expressive they are now. Hopefully it'll be good, my hope is flying high. ANYTHING beats the same stoic faces over and over again, followed by the head neck crick move they do whenever they think something sounds weird-like please for the love of god, tone that down and give them more emotional range like perhaps being able to simply raise an eyebrow!!!

Eh I'd say its mostly depends if you're mostly here for the MSQ or for the MMO type content. EW was pretty dry when it came to replayable MMO content and if the trend holds we're looking at like what 4 to 8 months of just 4 raid bosses and 2 dungeons at level cap once the new expansion drops. Personally I can't help but feel like hard focusing on graphic quality might not be the best choice in the short term and depending on how frustrated people get it might not have been the best choice in the long term either. And that's before you consider the people who didn't like the results of the update.

Also LOL @ pretending this isn't one of the most predatory MMOs out there. They literally refuse to add a glamour log/tab so they can RENT you bank space. F2P MMOs at least have the decency of SELLING it to you.

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Originally Posted by hobostew

Eh I'd say its mostly depends if you're mostly here for the MSQ or for the MMO type content. EW was pretty dry when it came to replayable MMO content and if the trend holds we're looking at like what 4 to 8 months of just 4 raid bosses and 2 dungeons at level cap once the new expansion drops. Personally I can't help but feel like hard focusing on graphic quality might not be the best choice in the short term and depending on how frustrated people get it might not have been the best choice in the long term either. And that's before you consider the people who didn't like the results of the update.

Also LOL @ pretending this isn't one of the most predatory MMOs out there. They literally refuse to add a glamour log/tab so they can RENT you bank space. F2P MMOs at least have the decency of SELLING it to you.

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4 raid bosses in 7.05 or whatever, 2 extremes to farm, 3 dungeons if the past pattern holds. Which is a perfectly fine amount of content for X.0 patches. People have to get through the msq, level their main job and then level any other jobs they are so inclined to level as well so basically nobody is going to be out there complaining about a content shortage. Historically, I don't finish maxing out every job until a few weeks into x.1 and I play a fair amount. My usual routine is levelling, trials, normal raid, frontlines, 1 cc, and 1 trust dungeon every day. Also an expert on some days for tomestones until I hit the weekly cap.

This also assumes they don't have additional content ready for .0 or .5. Which I would very much doubt will show up, but anything's possible.

Updated graphics are always a necessity for games, especially when they're showing their ages. FFXIV is about to turn 11 years, and while I understand some people are upset with changes, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they will fix this. I'm considering this a "beta" of sorts, so they can fix issues before the release. Who knows, maybe we'll see some changes in the live letters for comparison?

There's a difference between being needed and being an improvement.

While the improvement is greatly welcomed, I didn't need it to happen to be able to continue to enjoy the game. I'll always value game play more than the graphics.

I can get used to poor graphics if I'm having fun. State of the art graphics will never compensate for poor game play.

That the update was necessary was never in doubt. Wether the work they did is good or not is another matter entirely.

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the fact they are willing to go in and work on something so delicate for the players is a commendable act and an example to other game developers to invest in their platforms instead of bleeding them dry.

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This is hilarious though from the company that sells 300€ emotes and holds your house hostage to keep you subbing. The update was necessary to keep subs, just like everything else they do. You want subs, you do what people want.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moqi

This is hilarious though from the company that sells 300€ emotes and holds your house hostage to keep you subbing. The update was necessary to keep subs, just like everything else they do. You want subs, you do what people want.

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Yeah you don't see me commending those lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

A few? The picture shows a few more triangles in the ears, but you'd have better luck asking the Twitter account that sourced the image. I just wanted to share it here.

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Bones, not polygons. More polygons just means the model is smoother, less jagged edges and, if rigged properly, less awkward defomations on the model. The bones are what the mesh gets rigged to and are used for animating the characters.

He's basically asking if they increased the ear bones beyond the current number, 1 for each Miqo'te and 2 for each Viera ear, and are able to animate them more.

If SE really wanted to make characters more expressive, they could have done so with the current faces. SE is using a very limited number expressions in cutscenes, there are far more animations already available in FF. I don't see why they'll suddenly make better use of their available options just because of different head mesh.

Has anyone checked the bones in the models used for the Hildebrand cutscenes and compared them to the new models yet? IIRC, don't they use the Hildebrand quests to test new graphics things?

Seems like a huge waste of time, resources, and opportunity. We basically have a dual wielding samurai and a painter coming as new classes, but somehow the graphics are super important.

There's a major disconnect where the game's evolution is severely starting to lack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DBriggs304

Seems like a huge waste of time, resources, and opportunity. We basically have a dual wielding samurai and a painter coming as new classes, but somehow the graphics are super important.

There's a major disconnect where the game's evolution is severely starting to lack.

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Sorry if you cant see the point of more detailed facial animation rigs in a cutscene heavy game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aiqa

If SE really wanted to make characters more expressive, they could have done so with the current faces. SE is using a very limited number expressions in cutscenes, there are far more animations already available in FF. I don't see why they'll suddenly make better use of their available options just because of different head mesh.

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this whole change is happening because they couldn't do it with the current faces. the new head meshes have more detail and more rigging, which makes it easier to animate them.

Again, Aymeric's mouth needs more polys so that it actually works properly, but this game is ancient so they weren't able to do it (also I suspect their internal toolkit is a huge PITA to work with due to the nature of ARR's development).

But also, it's not just character faces. Like, unless you've been actively skipping this entire thread, it's also extremely crusted models and textures, which you can't update without it being really obvious which parts of the game are untouched. We already have somewhat have this effect in the game with Lv90 armors vs Lv50 armors in terms of texture detail.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ancalagon_Blacktalon

*snip*

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So why would they suddenly use more animations that need a newly rigged heads, while previous cutscenes don't even even use half of the existing animations that work perfectly fine and are already available for the current mesh? And SE (almost) never makes variations of facial animations that are possible with the current rigs, outside of selling emotes. I already questioned that in my original post, but you completely glossed over it in your response. And a specific head having to few polygons to animate properly is not a convincing arguement. It's not that difficult to add a few more polygons and weight them. That doesn't need completely new rigs, much less prove anything.

Internal toolkit point is pure speculation, so I'll not address.

The game already is a huge mishmash of inconsitant texture resolution, mesh quality and scale issues. That isn't just "some". In particular environments can have perfectly fine parts right next to textures with meter long pixels. Almost square meshes. And objects scaled up hugely to give the illusion of being somewhat filled. I haven't seen anyone question environments needing some improvements.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taliriah

Sorry if you cant see the point of more detailed facial animation rigs in a cutscene heavy game.

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The feels and writing have been effective for years to elicit an emotional response in those cutscenes whether I see one wrinkle or three.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DBriggs304

The feels and writing have been effective for years to elicit an emotional response in those cutscenes whether I see one wrinkle or three.

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I feel people should also adapt to new technology and changes instead of clinging onto things because they can't or won't accept change which is what I feel people who want the devs to revert back to the ps3 graphics are doing. People always seem to refuse to upgrade there machines and want to force devs to continue to develop for the lowest end of machines because they don't want to feel there left out rather then upgrading for a feature that will benefit the game in the long term.