"Enhanced Blacklist Functionality" Safety Concerns

I'll start the thread with the opinion it was based off of: "Enhanced Blacklist Functionality" is a band aid on a bullet hole and, at best, a sidegrade to the current Blacklist. While I understand there is value in removing someone from your view, it isn't without risk for the person blacklisting and this post will be explaining some reasons for that.

Firstly, if you can't see them, you don't know what they're doing. If they're near you, anyone else that may be present can see that while you yourself can't even know if they're there. If they're stalking you / doing weird things with your character, everyone else sees that while you yourself can't. If you unlock a new duty while they're following you and you queue there and then because you don't know that they're following you, they can queue snipe you in order to force an interaction inside the duty.

As a result, if you've got them blacklisted for a very severe reason such as the aforementioned stalking, you may not get peace of mind but instead fear what they might be doing. While being stalked in game is scary, not being able to see who is around you and what they are doing can be more scary under the right conditions.

Total model removal would be perfectly safe if it was two way (meaning you are invisible to the people you blacklist, as well as them being invisible to you). While what we're getting is a big big step in the right direction, it's not everything that people were asking for when they requested total model removal.
You shouldn't be surprised if people continue to request total model removal, as the Enhanced Blacklist as currently proposed does not meet the needs of everyone who requested it.

Another concern of mine is that this feature will also result in less stalking and harassment cases actually being resolved; you cannot report stalking and harassment that you don't know about, so less harassment cases are reported, therefore the harassers get a free pass to continue stalking and harassing as opposed to being reported and punished. If the harasser is reported by the victim, the GM inherently knows the victim has not enhanced blacklisted the harasser, so the victim is more likely be blamed for the situation and told to enhanced blacklist the harasser, which may mean the harasser is not punished.
The cynical among us may argue that this could have been intentional; while that is not my personal view, I can see how that conclusion may be reasonably reached.

(Hit character limit, continued in first comment.)

There is one saving grace though: the fact you don't have to use it. The new Mute feature appears to work identically to the current Blacklist, so those of us that have safety concerns with the Enhanced Blacklist can use Mute instead. Thank god for that, because had this "Enhanced" Blacklist replaced the current Blacklist I'd no longer have felt safe playing the game and I know I'm not alone in that.
As mentioned before, you shouldn't be surprised if people continue to request total model removal, as the Enhanced Blacklist as currently proposed does not meet the needs of everyone who requested it.

In short, "Enhanced Blacklist Functionality" is "they get to keep stalking and harassing you, you just don't know about it" which is arguably worse than the current Blacklist. We want to be invisible to the people we blacklist as well, instead of only having them invisible to us.

Lastly to praise what was done well, because I don't like that the whole post was negative:
- Term Filter was everything that we asked for, and will be a godsend for everyone.
- Estate Expulsion is also incredible, and all it would take to make it perfect is an option to deny someone entry permanently.

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Originally Posted by bp_isa_ff

if you can't see them, you don't know what they're doing.

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I have lots of UI windows open over the top of my screen and focus on chatting in FC, LS or tabbing out, so I tend to ignore what people are doing anyway. I doubt I'm alone in that.

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If you unlock a new duty while they're following you and you queue there and then because you don't know that they're following you, they can queue snipe you in order to force an interaction inside the duty.

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Then you can leave it, or you could just not interact with them and complete the duty. You can do dungeons with NPCs and trials have 8 people so whoever you blacklisted is probably not required to beat the duty.

Let's not forget, that if this does prevent people viewing someone's lodestone profile entirely (even with the URL), then they can transfer and rename and the person should not be able to identify their home world.

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Another concern of mine is that this feature will also result in less stalking and harassment cases actually being resolved; you cannot report stalking and harassment that you don't know about

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Arguably, if you don't know about it, then they are more likely to get bored, since they are attention-seeking.

Yes I like the new options but putting myself in the shoes of somebody that's being harassed mercilessly, I wouldn't want to use those tools. I would want the GM teams to do something about it OR have reciprocal blacklist functionalities, like what people have asked for ages already, which is friendlist mutual removal for a start. It's maddening that it's still not implement just because "people might feel awkward when somebody gets removed from their FL". We're not just talking about removing someone from the FL (it's fine in this case if it's not mutual), we're literally talking about adding people to a BL.

Still a good step in the right direction though, just doesn't tackle the core issue yet.

Right, I just said it in another thread but it should go both ways. It's a good first step but it's effectly just covering your eyes and ears. It needs to go both ways and remove the problem at the source.

I don't really see the problem with no removing your character from their screen. At some point you need to stop bickering like children and just move on. Square Enix are giving all players on all platforms the ability to blacklist someone and not see them. Likewise, you can remove them and all their alts from your estate. This is an entirely reasonable solution and doesn't require Square Enix to babysit the community. I've also seen some people complain that blacklisted players can still join your duties via the duty finder. If you honestly expected the developers to completely rewrite the duty finder algorithm to add tons of complexity for each individual blocklist, that copium must be some strong stuff and I want some. Besides, if these people are actually harassing and trolling in duties you can report them because it's already against the terms of service. The only thing I do want Square Enix to add is the two-way removal from the friends list which is standard functionality on literally any other game/platform.

Spoken like someone that's never been truly harassed or stalked.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Spoken like someone that's never been truly harassed or stalked.

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All the opposing replies here and elsewhere are different shades of victim blaming.

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Originally Posted by bp_isa_ff

In short, "Enhanced Blacklist Functionality" is "they get to keep stalking and harassing you, you just don't know about it" which is arguably worse than the current Blacklist. We want to be invisible to the people we blacklist as well, instead of only having them invisible to us.

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Wait, let me see if I understand this correctly: you want to give other people the ability to make themselves invisible to you (by blacklisting you) so that you can't see what they are doing to you?

Don't let the fact that they you are invisible to them as well give you a false sense of security: all they need is a "spotter" character from another account quietly sitting nearby, bothering no one, but letting the "stalker" know everything you are doing.

Personally I don't believe much in turning anybody or anything invisible or playing ostrich. It's too full of exploits in both ways to really work.

An easy first step would be to make friendlist removal reciprocal. The lodestone stalk changes are also a good step in that direction, as well as the account wide block application. The mutelist/blacklist could also benefit from removing the possibility to search for the victim ingame (notably for their location).

This is not gonna fix everything though, especially regarding spotters and other elaborate methods used by stalkers, but it certainly makes it a lot harder, especially when one can also detect the spotters easily in non crowded areas and also block them (account wide).


Edit: to be clear I do understand that muting is already a form of making something invisible, which is text and speech. You choose by muting someone not to be able to read anything anymore, and they could be spouting really bad stuff about you already. The obvious culprit here is the total uselessness and training on the side of GMs in this game.

If you're so worried about a person who cannot meaningfully interact with you in any way shape or form potentially standing there menacingly, then maybe use the mute function instead?
I for one welcome the option of not having to look at Limsan bots.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Yes I like the new options but putting myself in the shoes of somebody that's being harassed mercilessly, I wouldn't want to use those tools. I would want the GM teams to do something about it OR have reciprocal blacklist functionalities, like what people have asked for ages already, which is friendlist mutual removal for a start. It's maddening that it's still not implement just because "people might feel awkward when somebody gets removed from their FL". We're not just talking about removing someone from the FL (it's fine in this case if it's not mutual), we're literally talking about adding people to a BL.

Still a good step in the right direction though, just doesn't tackle the core issue yet.

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Yeah, l agree. If you remove someone from your friend list, l can see the argument of not removing on the other side. But this is adding to black list... You would probably rejoice If that person gets into an automobile accident So that person is completely cut off from you

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Originally Posted by bp_isa_ff

snip " I'd no longer have felt safe playing the game and I know I'm not alone in that."

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My unpopular opinion here is simply going to be, if your "safety" is compromised by an invisible actor moving around your character in a virtual game - Get Help. You need therapy.

I'm not even trying to be edgy, you are not exhibiting a normal response to a non action in a virtual world. A black listed character under the new system means they cannot interact with you in a meaningful way, if you're going to be sitting there like "omg, are they next to me right now" that says so much about you. To the point where you rather use the lesser tool and mute them instead and watch them harass you? Nah. You want to live in your victimhood. Their erasure from the game and the fact you can hide yourself from them on the lodestone means their power has been stripped away. All the power they have left is in your head and you're handing it to them on a silver platter.

You've emotionally invested too much into this and you're now inventing harassment when you will no longer be able to see the player or see their chat.

I don't even care if this is the "how dare you it's 2024, it's mean to say anything against the victim, you victim blaming monster".

Yeah ok, get therapy and develop healthy coping skills.

Also peeps can hurl insults and reply ad nauseum. I just came to leave this one post. If you feel like OP, you also need to go get a therapist and put your stalkers on the actual blacklist.
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Anyway that aside,

SE do the friendslist next. That needs a complete revamp, if I remove a friend, it should be removed from their list as well. Also let us friend our alts.

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Originally Posted by LuciferNacht

My unpopular opinion here is simply going to be, if your "safety" is compromised by an invisible actor moving around your character in a virtual game - Get Help. You need therapy.

I'm not even trying to be edgy, you are not exhibiting a normal response to a non action in a virtual world. A black listed character under the new system means they cannot interact with you in a meaningful way, if you're going to be sitting there like "omg, are they next to me right now" that says so much about you. To the point where you rather use the lesser tool and mute them instead and watch them harass you? Nah. You want to live in your victimhood. Their erasure from the game and the fact you can hide yourself from them on the lodestone means their power has been stripped away. All the power they have left is in your head and you're handing it to them on a silver platter.

You've emotionally invested too much into this and you're now inventing harassment when you will no longer be able to see the player or see their chat.

I don't even care if this is the "how dare you it's 2024, it's mean to say anything against the victim, you victim blaming monster".

Yeah ok, get therapy and develop healthy coping skills.

Also peeps can hurl insults and reply ad nauseum. I just came to leave this one post. If you feel like OP, you also need to go get a therapist and put your stalkers on the actual blacklist.
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Anyway that aside,

SE do the friendslist next. That needs a complete revamp, if I remove a friend, it should be removed from their list as well. Also let us friend our alts.

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I disagree.

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Originally Posted by bp_isa_ff

Another concern of mine is that this feature will also result in less stalking and harassment cases actually being resolved; you cannot report stalking and harassment that you don't know about, so less harassment cases are reported, therefore the harassers get a free pass to continue stalking and harassing as opposed to being reported and punished.

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If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear it, is it harassment?

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Originally Posted by LuciferNacht

Their erasure from the game and the fact you can hide yourself from them on the lodestone means their power has been stripped away.

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Pretty much. They can't make new alts to harass with and their entire account has been terminated from their former victim's view. All they can do is impotently sit behind their screen while no one notices or cares. It's similar to parasocial losers sending messages to their favorite content creator that will never be read. LMAO

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Originally Posted by bp_isa_ff

There is one saving grace though: the fact you don't have to use it. The new Mute feature appears to work identically to the current Blacklist, so those of us that have safety concerns with the Enhanced Blacklist can use Mute instead. Thank god for that, because had this "Enhanced" Blacklist replaced the current Blacklist I'd no longer have felt safe playing the game and I know I'm not alone in that.
As mentioned before, you shouldn't be surprised if people continue to request total model removal, as the Enhanced Blacklist as currently proposed does not meet the needs of everyone who requested it.

In short, "Enhanced Blacklist Functionality" is "they get to keep stalking and harassing you, you just don't know about it" which is arguably worse than the current Blacklist. We want to be invisible to the people we blacklist as well, instead of only having them invisible to us.

Lastly to praise what was done well, because I don't like that the whole post was negative:
- Term Filter was everything that we asked for, and will be a godsend for everyone.
- Estate Expulsion is also incredible, and all it would take to make it perfect is an option to deny someone entry permanently.

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holy crap the term filter... yes... THANK YOU. no more venue ads clogging MY chat log....

It sounds like basically everything you don't like about the new blist is handled by putting people on the new mute list instead.

You're giving too much power to your harasser, with this new Backlist function you can't hear or even see them anymore and they can't enter your house. Stop feeding them attention, if your worried about your character just fantasia into the UGGGGGLYIST thing you can create in this game, a Hograther. Guarantee you they'll find another target.

I mean... what else are they supposed to do? If you can't see them then does it even matter if they're doing something goofy/weird? Making it a system where both parties can't see each other would be fine by me but I just don't understand what else could even be done that would be satisfactory outside of straight up machine banning the person that's stalking you. It seems like a pretty fine solution to the problem, heck if you do accidentally get paired in a duty finder, which would be rare anyways, their name doesn't even show up and you could just leave if they start something on the rare chance it happens.

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Originally Posted by Jessica_VS

Out of curiosity, is in-game stalking common? How does it start---with (now-former) friends, or strangers? I'm guessing that this is happening more often to women?

I feel fortunate because I've been gaming online since I was a child (so, for about two decades), and although I've encountered all kinds of "interesting" people, I have never been stalked/harassed to this sort of magnitude. Not to make too much light of things, but I feel left out here. Tell them they can stalk and harass me so I can sell them books and workout advice, or at least consider them a legion of adoring albeit confused fans.

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I honestly don't wish it upon anyone because the whole 'I don't feel safe anymore' isn't a great feeling to feel and irl stalking usually ends up in the death of the victim because it's not really taken seriously until something 'happens', so in a sense it's a pretty scary thing.

Not on this game but another and it persisted for 4 years on social media. Someone who apparently got attached to me despite only knowing me for maybe a month, decided I was the only love of his life, he followed me around, he'd spam my inbox, he'd create new accounts to try and pretend he's someone else and 'trick' me into talking to him without me knowing. Prolonged messages about if I didn't talk to him he'll game end himself, he infilterated my friend circles and I essentially had to leave it all.

Another in GW2 when I was younger and new, someone took fancy to 'helping' me, I thought he was being really nice then he started to get abusive and obssessive and when I tried to put some boundaries and that didn't work (I blocked him) he started stalking me ingame until I quit for months (luckily he didn't have any social media because I stopped using it).

I really miss the time when I was really social but it's good to remind myself that danger isn't always around the corner. It's really hard for someone who has recently dealt with such things or is currently dealing with it imo...It's nice that SE is trying to give us agency over how our information is displayed; I think it's a step in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

It's nice that SE is trying to give us agency over how our information is displayed; I think it's a step in the right direction.

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Which I think is the most important message here.

SE has started the process that many players have been requesting for a few years now. More tools may be added later as they get them developed and debugged but for now, let's make use of the new tools and see how many of our problems they fix and what remains a problem. Then we can make additional suggestions.

For those who are debating if someone can be harassed or stalked if they can't see/hear the other player, the answer is yes. As an example, fueling the rumor mill has been one method used for harassment for a very long time. Too many people can't resist gossip and they aren't always going to stop and think about how damaging it can be. Stalking generally involves the target not even knowing that their activities are being monitored in some fashion.

The problem is that making your character invisible to them will not prevent harassment or stalking from happening. The easiest workaround is to have other service accounts or make friends with those who are also your friends (or at least know you).

Your best defense is to roll your eyes and not let them bother you. 99% of stalkers and harassers are just trying to provoke reactions out of others, and for some reason they've picked you as their target. If you don't react, eventually they'll get bored and move on.

It's the remaining 1% that is the problem, and that 1% is not going to be easily deterred. The harder you try to make it for them to get to you, the more determined they are to continue their "attentions", many times in a stealthier fashion so you can't catch them at it.

But remember this is an online game. As long as their only way to contact you is in game and all they know about you is your character name, you're in no danger as long as you stay smart.

Do not share your character name(s) any place where it might be connected to other online accounts that link to your real life information in some way.
Don't share your personal information with people you only know from online, no matter how well you think know them. A friend today could turn into an enemy tomorrow. Save your personal information for family and friends that you know from real life, that you can go beat up if they give your information to someone else (okay, little bit of a joke but you should get the idea).

The reverse is just as true - no need to share your online character information with people in real life unless they are also playing the game with you. The last thing you need is to have a relative post in social media "oh my cousin RealName also plays that game, their character name is StalkerTarget, maybe you've met them". Suddenly there's a potential way for a stalker to search and find you without your knowledge.

The internet has a scary amount of information that will come up about people these days if you do a simple search. A lot of it is wrong but some of it is accurate. Better safe than sorry - limit that crossover between real life and online life to what's strictly necessary and as secure as possible.

Is this something that's going to happen to everyone? Of course not. Most will never have problems of this nature whether online or in real life. But do you really want to be that one in a million person that it does happen to?

Use common sense. Don't overshare information when it really is not necessary.