The Trinity System in PVP

Not gonna lie, I miss the Trinity system for PVP. While 6.1 has (imo) been a net improvement to the XIV pvp system, I'm nostalgic about being a full-time healer in pvp.

My thoughts are:

• The current skill layout
• Less: Recuperate on all classes
• And: Healers being revised back to full-time healing

Would be a neat change of pace. This would have a significant impact on FL pacing. At the very least, it would slow down the pace of FL matches by reducing the amount of "DPS" classes available per match. At the same time, it could(?) increase the amount of support per FL match, especially if that support could play around the current FL meta.

That's not thinking about CC, and we know PVP balance revolves around CC balance.

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Originally Posted by Aubrey_A

Not gonna lie, I miss the Trinity system for PVP. While 6.1 has (imo) been a net improvement to the XIV pvp system, I'm nostalgic about being a full-time healer in pvp.

My thoughts are:

• The current skill layout
• Less: Recuperate on all classes
• And: Healers being revised back to full-time healing

Would be a neat change of pace. This would have a significant impact on FL pacing. At the very least, it would slow down the pace of FL matches by reducing the amount of "DPS" classes available per match. At the same time, it could(?) increase the amount of support per FL match, especially if that support could play around the current FL meta.

That's not thinking about CC, and we know PVP balance revolves around CC balance.

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I'm a bit confused about this, because on one hand you say that 6.1 has been a net improvement, but on the other hand you want to maintain all job changes while rolling back only healers- aside from recuperate on the other jobs?

Because you list "the current skill layout" without specifying which jobs would have changes, I don't see how this wouldn't affect all jobs.

Although I was fine with healers prior to the rework, I am fine with the healer rework and personally I wouldn't want it rolled back to full-time healing. I would, on the other hand, see how reducing the availability of recuperate on some jobs could be a positive change in FL.

I don't miss it at all, unlike for pve. It was full of problems, putting 95% of the party weight on healers, even after the introduction of potions/recuperate. If you want to reduce recuperate as well, then welcome back to pre ShB pvp where only healers matter.

I also do not want to go back to the good old times of 2 people per party had to take the bullet and swap to healer in FLs else you'd have 90% chance of losing if the other team did it and not yours.

Recuperate should be reduced to the amount of healer spells. I always found it weird that everyone had access to better healing then actual healers. Then it might actually be worth the trade off for having a healing spell instead of a damage spell.

The amount of healing dedicated actions healers have (esp WHM and AST) is absolutely crazy already.

I don't think it should be to roll based at all based upon then the team with the most healers wins in a figure of speech, taking tanking away more would be a good feature as well, so it would be more based on everyone has to stand for themself and do their part.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

I don't think it should be to roll based at all based upon then the team with the most healers wins in a figure of speech, taking tanking away more would be a good feature as well, so it would be more based on everyone has to stand for themself and do their part.

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Being a PvP tank never had the game-deciding impact of being a PvP healer back when dedicated healers were a thing. Current tanks also aren't all equal on mitigation, like Warrior is actually squishy and plays around Primal Rend stuns and DRK outside of Salted Earth is a lifesteal DPS.

All tanks can be nuked fast though if you catch them without their defensive up and stun them before Guard. Well, in Crystalline Conflict at least. Many jobs have mitigation besides Guard anyhow, so thats not special to tanks.

Long story short - dedicated Healers had game-deciding impact, dedicated tanks did not. Literally not comparable.

So i played Healer back in the Feast (Scholar) and achieved top 100 with it. While the Healer did have a huge impact, i do not think that it is accurate that only the healer mattered.

I had my fair share of matches where i outhealed the enemy healer tenfold but nothing died on the enemy side until i just ran out of mana. Tank Stuns and DPS CC mattered a lot especially later in the high tiers.

Also: being a Healer in the Feast was extremely stressful wich is probably the main reason the trinity got removed. Not to many had enough endurance to play and stick to the healer role until they got good enough.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

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Definitely true to say that Healer was not the only role that mattered. Melee had fairly important impact to actually pumping out enough damage, Caster had significant burst support and Ranged came in with additional CC and decent damage.

However while a game cannot be won by a good Healer alone you have to admit that Healers had a significantly higher skill floor.

Good melees and ranged won you games, good tanks stabilized games but good Healers were a necessity to even give everyone else a chance. This make-or-break design is what made Healers both the most stressful role and the most necessary one.

I for one am glad for asymmetric job design with Healers not having a lion's share of healing tools.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

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Also: being a Healer in the Feast was extremely stressful wich is probably the main reason the trinity got removed. Not to many had enough endurance to play and stick to the healer role until they got good enough.

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I can attest to that. I played restoration druid, discipline priest, And Holy paladin in warcraft, So naturally my first pick in pvp is healer. Boy l got flames So much for being new(including people tagging me in discord and telling me to stop playing healer). I do not miss the old days. However, l got to admit that l made me feel l truly earned "platinum wolf" as a scholar/astrologian.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

So i played Healer back in the Feast (Scholar) and achieved top 100 with it. While the Healer did have a huge impact, i do not think that it is accurate that only the healer mattered.

I had my fair share of matches where i outhealed the enemy healer tenfold but nothing died on the enemy side until i just ran out of mana. Tank Stuns and DPS CC mattered a lot especially later in the high tiers.

Also: being a Healer in the Feast was extremely stressful wich is probably the main reason the trinity got removed. Not to many had enough endurance to play and stick to the healer role until they got good enough.

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The role spread was a lot less prevalent in top 100 or diamond than in lower ranks, where the skill of the healer was the defining factor for the game and outweighed every other consideration like damage, burst syncing, etc. The Feast was essentially balanced around diamond and top ranks more than anything, which isn't to say that it's an oddity in multiplayer gaming since pure balance usually matters at the top level the most, but it becomes a problem when it generates fundamental issues like this at lower skill play.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

So i played Healer back in the Feast (Scholar) and achieved top 100 with it. While the Healer did have a huge impact, i do not think that it is accurate that only the healer mattered.

I had my fair share of matches where i outhealed the enemy healer tenfold but nothing died on the enemy side until i just ran out of mana. Tank Stuns and DPS CC mattered a lot especially later in the high tiers.

Also: being a Healer in the Feast was extremely stressful wich is probably the main reason the trinity got removed. Not to many had enough endurance to play and stick to the healer role until they got good enough.

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You actually brought up another issue but primarily in casual play.
Almost every engagement in Frontlines was just a massive zerg where nothing died for minutes until one faction's healers ran out of MP, it was incredibly boring.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

You actually brought up another issue but primarily in casual play.
Almost every engagement in Frontlines was just a massive zerg where nothing died for minutes until one faction's healers ran out of MP, it was incredibly boring.

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Or they just targeted the healers first, which getting instantly nuked was always fun....not really.

6.1 was a net destruction of what pvp was, this casual shit has gone too long. DRK is still the meta after almost 2 years. borrrrrrrrrringgggg

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Originally Posted by Valence

I don't miss it at all, unlike for pve. It was full of problems, putting 95% of the party weight on healers, even after the introduction of potions/recuperate. If you want to reduce recuperate as well, then welcome back to pre ShB pvp where only healers matter.

I also do not want to go back to the good old times of 2 people per party had to take the bullet and swap to healer in FLs else you'd have 90% chance of losing if the other team did it and not yours.

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Its an MMO. Everyone shouldnt be a dps, healer, and tank. Roles dont matter anymore

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Originally Posted by Niroken

Or they just targeted the healers first, which getting instantly nuked was always fun....not really.

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then youre not playing right. As a team, you protect your healer and the healer keeps you alive. So no, if playing properly you wouldnt be "nuked"

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Originally Posted by Kurbb

then youre not playing right. As a team, you protect your healer and the healer keeps you alive. So no, if playing properly you wouldnt be "nuked"

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Annoy enough people on the other side, and they will find a way to nuke you on sight.

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Originally Posted by Aubrey_A

• And: Healers being revised back to full-time healing

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And so, how will you encourage tank/dps to help healers to stay alive? If you want to crub their damage dealing potential (supposedly), to give them whole bunch of new heals.
If I were made healing healer again, I would demand all of us to have un-nerfed Miracle of Nature at least, and some form of mean aoe cc (unnerfed Gravity?), because there ain't tank/melee/ranged/caster in pvp who is more interested on me sprinkling some hots or whatever rather than their own kills.

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Originally Posted by Kurbb

So no, if playing properly you wouldnt be "nuked"

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Only way I ever got dps off of my hail in Feast was to sleep/stun/whatever-was-available them to shadowrealm.

I have to agree, I also miss a more defined trinity in PvP. I don't think there is a need for a strict trinity like in PvE, but, everyone having a bunch of heals and shields does remove a lot of the MMO feel that I'm personally used to. Also makes gameplay more zergy and smaller battles impossible as it stands.

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Originally Posted by RevenSix

I have to agree, I also miss a more defined trinity in PvP. I don't think there is a need for a strict trinity like in PvE, but, everyone having a bunch of heals and shields does remove a lot of the MMO feel that I'm personally used to. Also makes gameplay more zergy and smaller battles impossible as it stands.

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Having a strict trinity is (1) useless unless everyone understands their roles as Burmecia points out, having seen a number of players who likely have no concept of peeling for their healer- I could imagine healers being in short supply (2) personally I prefer the healer changes, they each have their individual identities in PvP so they're actually more fun in PvP than they were before especially given (1) and (3) not sure what you mean now by 'small" battles being impossible? If it's 1 or 2 v2 that's not really optimal in FL or RW. You do get smaller groups at points in RW, so you've lost me a bit there

Was gonna wait till 7.1 to see what fresh hell pvp has in store but given that this thread is still going I'll throw my opinion in the ring.

I appreciate that the Op is addressing the different types of pvp in regards to their grievance as most who post forget or dismiss them.

1.) SHB FL was the best iteration of pvp large-scale for role based method

A.) the classes were better balanced with about an even amount of aoe & single target abilities as well as their own selectable role skills

B.) The maps never required any change as drastic as what is being experienced(a bit off topic but still worth mentioning)

C.) Any issues with a certain class (drg piercing talon, which wasnt that big of an issue, or healers having too much healing) could have been fixed with a simple potency reduction, instead any change to class or its abilities is now more difficult to balance considering they have more than one effect and requires a change in other abilities to compensate.

D.) If the Devs spent as much time on SHB pvp as they are now or instead of developing CC or holding off untill the former issues were resolved then most problems would've been solved by now (the main cause of the problems)

E.) I'm not a healer main so I can't comment on whether the value of a healer in the current pvp is diminished or not but I can say going as tank in shb FL I enjoyed my role as well as the healers that could rescue me, I don't see why a large-scale mode shouldn't incorporate more of the trinity system considering any issues wouldve been easier to resolve, while it's anecdotal ive been in matches with an entire healer alliance and still lost.

2.) EW CC is the best version of small-scale pvp despite not knowing how it would've worked with feast (TDM)

A.) Ques are faster, whether this is due to the battle pass or the removal of role restrictions is uncertain.

B.) Roles are not as impactful towards achieving a win, despite certain role classes being somewhat more advantageous than others (war vs pld, whm vs sch , mnk vs every dps, except drg maybe, ect)

C.) Classes are beyond unique and interesting, even though they're screwing up the management

3.) RW, idk as I rarely play it but should be added to daily roulette challenge, not relevant but needs to be said

The only solutions I can think of is to separate large-scale and small-scale toolkit, however this will never happen or a Separate FL mode(s) with smaller numbers (I'm not too convinced this will work)

1) Agreed partially, ShB FLs were better balanced because the pvp design didn't clash as much between the arena mode and FLs, unlike in the current iteration. In a way it dodged a bullet because SB FLs, which were based on the same pvp model and design, were an absolute hell hole for different reasons (no medkits, over reliance on healers, imbalanced jobs for FLs like you'd think current meta is child's play in comparison, etc). However, role based was already a fantasy on its own in shb. Healers weren't needed as much anymore due to the dramatically increased pace and burst damage and most of the healing done by personal medkits (introduced to prevent over reliance on healers in both modes, where they carried 95% of the weight of the team). Tanks tanked more, but that's about it. The current ones haven't changed that much comparatively except on the things they can pull off with LB.

Maps had the exact same issues and have had them since they changed the mount speed back in ShB, which favored death-balling incredibly more (not saying it was fun to spend 2min to go back to the fray after dying before that though, there was pros and cons). Seal rock was still totally imbalanced spawn wise, Secure was still a punt off the cliff fiesta (I kinda liked it, be it in SB, ShB or EW tbh), Secure still suffered from zero rng which ended up in the exact same games over and over, Shatter was already a mindless ice licking interspaced by blob meatgrinders in the middle when there was no ice up and also played exactly like that with the current pvp iteration before it got reworked. Onsal playstyle hasn't changed one iota either.

2) Queues are faster because it's popular and intuitive/easy to get into, unlike feast, which had insanely high skill floor and a not so high skill ceiling.

Only foreseeable solution to that is to remove the elixir or just remove Recuperate.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

Only foreseeable solution to that is to remove the elixir or just remove Recuperate.

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while it would increase the value for healers it would also cause problems of an over dependence on them as well, granted im not a healer main so i cant say if that would be desirable or not, i will say that a separation of kits would allow more abilities to be available for the mode that would need that separation, those abilities i imagine would probably reflect the class/role so in other words healers would get more healing , tanks more defensive , dps more offensive skills

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

Only foreseeable solution to that is to remove the elixir or just remove Recuperate.

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Then you'd completely break the system on top of going back to all the woes of the past.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Being a PvP tank never had the game-deciding impact of being a PvP healer back when dedicated healers were a thing. Current tanks also aren't all equal on mitigation, like Warrior is actually squishy and plays around Primal Rend stuns and DRK outside of Salted Earth is a lifesteal DPS.

All tanks can be nuked fast though if you catch them without their defensive up and stun them before Guard. Well, in Crystalline Conflict at least. Many jobs have mitigation besides Guard anyhow, so thats not special to tanks.

Long story short - dedicated Healers had game-deciding impact, dedicated tanks did not. Literally not comparable.

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Well been in all sorts of PvP's you should skip the tankness as well in it as it is... and let it be player vs player more, else it is metas one way or another, removing the roles entirely would make it easier to make balance to the system as it is.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

Only foreseeable solution to that is to remove the elixir or just remove Recuperate.

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Are we trying to make killing even easier? Those are the vibes I'm getting.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Then you'd completely break the system on top of going back to all the woes of the past.

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Pre-5.1 Potion era pvp with complete reliance on healers like the good old days, let's gooooooo (please don't D: )

I would be very surprised if we didn't see a full re-work of Frontline being addressed in the upcoming Live Letter.

Yoshi did mention that they were going to be introducing new/more PvP modes in the future when they announced Crystal Casino back in 6.1.

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Originally Posted by Sinstrel

Yoshi did mention that they were going to be introducing new/more PvP modes in the future when they announced Crystal Casino back in 6.1.

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I hope they announce that BLU Battle Royal they mentioned in an interview a while back.