Logical Fallacies When Discussing Things within XIV

One thing I never really understand with how people in the community function (I've been experiencing this since Shadowbringers specifically), is that everything is an absolute or an extreme, or a situation where if the others win you lose. I'm am just as guilty of this as anyone else, and I noticed that type of mindset becoming more normal for me and others I know who have played XIV for a long time.

Some examples being:

• If someone talks about how they're enjoying XIV someone has to talk about how they aren't, or vice versa.
  
• Someone will say they want more content, given they have more time, and someone who is more casual oriented who already is ok with the lack of time they personally have to spend on XIV seeing it as a slight to how they play.
  
• People feeling the need to tell people to quit when someone made a tempered take about the state of the game, explaining their thoughts in a fair way.
  
• The assumption that someone hates the game in it's entirety for wanting change.

I feel like between a lot of the bickering we all do and at times unfair mental gymnastics played, it becomes impossible to not only give feed back or to even see if there are worth while player made solutions to known issues within the game. But to also discuss the reality of the game good and bad.


And I know a lot of this may end up being trolls or people talking around points. And I'm in no way trying to come off as condescending with a post like this. But I mean, fair question(s) here.

Oh man, where to begin.

A few of my favorites that I've seen in the past:


- Moving the goalposts of what it means for criticism to be constructive. For example, Player A mentions something they don't like and they propose an idea on how to fix or change something. Player B: "No your criticism isn't constructive because I disagree with it."

- An overall lack of verbal reasoning from some members of the forums. Someone reads a post and misinterprets the meaning and/or tone of the post which leads to that person creating a strawman argument.

- Ad hominem attacks in the form of foul or passive-aggressive language. I usually saw this when forum members were discussing flaws of the Endwalker MSQ. Someone would jump in the conversation and curse people out or say something snarky/patronizing.

- Appeal to tradition: "This is right and shouldn't change because the game has always been like this."

- Inconsistent arguments. Someone presents an argument but you remember that same person was arguing from the opposite position just a week ago, which can be confirmed by looking at their post history.

- False dilemmas. "Oh, you dislike how the story writers went in this direction? What are you saying? That the writers should've done this instead?" Some people just don't realize there can be more nuanced solutions.

- Circular reasoning.

- False premises.

- Red herrings. Usually done when a forum member doesn't have any more useful data to back up their claims.

- Non sequitur fallacies.

- Appeal to ridicule.

- Double standard - I usually see this in the form of "negative feedback of FFXIV is just an opinion but positive feedback is a fact."

- Appeal to emotion - Emotional arguments leveraged by some members of the forums. I.E. "Providing negative feedback can hurt the devs' feelings and is equivalent to harassing the devs," even when the feedback is delivered in a pleasant or neutral tone.

- Impostor fallacy and Traitorous critic fallacy - Usually seen when an FF player is criticizing or providing negative feedback of FFXIV, and other forum members accuse the player of being a wow shill.

- Just because fallacy - Forum member provides no proof of their claims. I.E. "trust me, bro."

- Logic chopping - Forum members when they try to split hairs over the definition of a word.

- Slippery slope - I saw this back in Heavensward before dueling was added. Some forum members believed adding 1v1 dueling to the game would lead to an overwhelmingly toxic pvp-focused game.

- Argument by gibberish - Also used by forum members who have no more data to back up their claims.

- Moralistic fallacy - Venat sundering the ancients.

- Appeal to false authority - Used by Yoshi p when he says the cash shop is controlled by the "scary baroness lady" and he has no control over cash shop prices.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

everything is an absolute or an extreme, or a situation where if the others win you lose.

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This has always been the case in the FFXIV community. I've never liked it. Going back to the earlier years of this game, people would always have hot takes. They were misinformed, lacked consideration, lacked empathy and they were everywhere.

It was extremely refreshing to watch MrHappy's videos because he would always have a balanced and fair perspective that tried to take into account all sides. Different types of players, etc. He's the one person you can count on in this community to have a level-headed take.

Quote:

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People feeling the need to tell people to quit when someone made a tempered take about the state of the game, explaining their thoughts in a fair way.

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I actually never say this on the forums, because that's up to the person.

That doesn't mean I won't point out that some people are burned out. Because you can make a bunch of criticisms but when you're exhaustedly saying that every single thing isn't good then, at a certain point, it goes beyond just saying "hey! the game is great but I want these few things to be better". It begins to look like heavy burnout to an external observer.

It would take a lot to suggest that someone actually quit though. That isn't my intention at all. The discussion can help people re-evaluate their perspective, or alternatively, re-evaluate presentation.

These things were more of an issue in the past. It's not nearly as bad anymore because some of the really burned out people here actually did quit, or are on break.

Quote:

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The assumption that someone hates the game in it's entirety for wanting change.

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Tone and presentation say a lot though. If there is not a single positive thing in someone's post and, furthermore, not a single positive thing in their post history, it builds a certain picture.

Like I said, I don't think the doomposting is actually as bad on these forums as it used to be.

I don't like it when people say to quit, or say something is good or bad to try and "win" an argument, or otherwise don't tackle arguments constructively, such as with statistics or a discussion about function and history.

If a post is respectful, understanding, constructive and saying what could be improved, explaining actually how, trying to take into account that other types of players exist ie. roleplayers, story players, casual raiders that just do extremes, ultimate raiders, social players, hardcore players, returners, new players, etc. then that is what I like seeing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

One thing I never really understand with how people in the community function (I've been experiencing this since Shadowbringers specifically), is that everything is an absolute or an extreme, or a situation where if the others win you lose. I'm am just as guilty of this as anyone else, and I noticed that type of mindset becoming more normal for me and others I know who have played XIV for a long time.

Some examples being:

• If someone talks about how they're enjoying XIV someone has to talk about how they aren't, or vice versa.
  
• Someone will say they want more content, given they have more time, and someone who is more casual oriented who already is ok with the lack of time they personally have to spend on XIV seeing it as a slight to how they play.
  
• People feeling the need to tell people to quit when someone made a tempered take about the state of the game, explaining their thoughts in a fair way.
  
• The assumption that someone hates the game in it's entirety for wanting change.

I feel like between a lot of the bickering we all do and at times unfair mental gymnastics played, it becomes impossible to not only give feed back or to even see if there are worth while player made solutions to known issues within the game. But to also discuss the reality of the game good and bad.


And I know a lot of this may end up being trolls or people talking around points. And I'm in no way trying to come off as condescending with a post like this. But I mean, fair question(s) here.

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Different people have different points of view. It's a discussion forum. You have to be open to others entering a thread with their own opinions. Hopefully everyone is being genuine with their thoughts but trolls will be trolls.

Regarding:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

• People feeling the need to tell people to quit when someone made a tempered take about the state of the game, explaining their thoughts in a fair way.

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The tempered takes are fine but they need to understand that what they post is still just their opinion. Some players might share the same or similar opinion but together they still don't doesn't represent the entire player base.

When the tempered take is summed up with "I can't enjoy the game anymore as it is", then suggesting the poster quit is good advice (though definitely there are good and bad ways of saying it).

The game is not going to be changed because the poster and a handful of other players are unhappy. If change the poster would see as positive is coming, it's not going to happen overnight. It could be several months away.

It does not make sense to waste time and money on something you cannot enjoy when the entire purpose of that something is to have a good time. Spend the time and money on something you will enjoy instead. If the first something later changes to something you can enjoy, go back at that point.

While some "just quit" comments are very flippant (usually obvious by the way they're posted), others are out of genuine concern. Sticking to things making you unhappy is not good for your mental health or your physical health. Quitting really is the best thing to do a lot of times. Seek out what will make you happy when the game is no longer doing it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

• The assumption that someone hates the game in it's entirety for wanting change.

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That's going to depend on what they want changed and how they're expressing their opinion.

Someone has a wall of text list of grievances and changes they feel the game needs but makes no mention of what they like and feel is done well? They've done it to themselves. There is nothing for the reader to use to infer that the poster might like the game. Perhaps the poster liked what the game was in the past but that past is gone and the game is different now. Perhaps they like their vision of what the game might be but that game doesn't exist. How do they genuinely feel about the game as it currently is? We can't know for certain, we can only go by what they post. What they posted didn't sound like it was coming from someone who likes the game.

Someone posts repeated sweeping negative generalizations about the game? No one who likes something overall is going to say those things. They're going to talk about that one thing they want changed and not bash the game as a whole.

Someone starts a new thread each day talking about one of the current negative hot takes on the game? They may not hate the game but they certainly don't like it. They probably don't care about the game at all and are just screwing with people for the lulz.

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Let me add this in as a side note:

I read an article a few days back related to the communication patterns of the various generations. One of the Generation Z members interviewed mentioned how their generation has a habit of talking in ironic and sarcastic ways. Other members of their generation will understand what they mean because they talk the same way.

Members of other generations won't because that's not how they talk as a rule. They're used to expressing their opinions clearly, not hidden behind irony and sarcasm.

This is a game with a multi-generation population. There are players in their teens and other players who are in their 70s and 80s. There are also those who come from different cultures and have learned English as a second (or third or fourth) language.

Perhaps some misunderstandings are happening because posters use different styles to communicate. It's something to keep in mind if what another poster says rubs you the wrong way. None of us are likely to change how we communicate but we can control how we react.

Unfortunately this thread itself is a bit of a logical fallacy because meta complaint threads will never be productive.

I haven't been on the forums for very long so there isn't a whole lot I can add on the subject here, but I have actually enjoyed discussing the game with people and like reading what others have to say. It brings a different perspective that I haven't thought of before about some aspects regarding the game I like playing.

What else did you expect from a game with Best Community Awards ?
:confused:

Most of the time people aren't making well reasoned complaints about the game.

This question can't be answered with one answer only. Everyone has their own reason for believing and arguing whatever they want.
I believe the best thing to do is to focus on things in your control and how you can improve them. You mentioned that you're guilty of doing this as well. Try to see why you do it and what triggers you to do it instead of looking for others reasoning.

It's the internet, there will always be trolls.

We're at the end of an expansion so it's like the morning sobering up from a party night. The game feels somewhat conflicted in direction and that tends to generate a lot of discussion, both good and bad, about different aspects of the game that are undergoing construction.

Most of the time people want to turn this game into an entirely different one. Then disagree and get mad when it's pointed out to them.

Also a lot of people aren't interested in debate or discussion. They want to state their opinion and then have the thread or forum just become an echo chamber.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

One thing I never really understand with how people in the community function (I've been experiencing this since Shadowbringers specifically), is that everything is an absolute or an extreme, or a situation where if the others win you lose. I'm am just as guilty of this as anyone else, and I noticed that type of mindset becoming more normal for me and others I know who have played XIV for a long time.

Some examples being:

• If someone talks about how they're enjoying XIV someone has to talk about how they aren't, or vice versa.
  
• Someone will say they want more content, given they have more time, and someone who is more casual oriented who already is ok with the lack of time they personally have to spend on XIV seeing it as a slight to how they play.
  
• People feeling the need to tell people to quit when someone made a tempered take about the state of the game, explaining their thoughts in a fair way.
  
• The assumption that someone hates the game in it's entirety for wanting change.

I feel like between a lot of the bickering we all do and at times unfair mental gymnastics played, it becomes impossible to not only give feed back or to even see if there are worth while player made solutions to known issues within the game. But to also discuss the reality of the game good and bad.


And I know a lot of this may end up being trolls or people talking around points. And I'm in no way trying to come off as condescending with a post like this. But I mean, fair question(s) here.

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This is a sympton of the issue with society today. Topics always get segregated into two distinct camps. This or that, all or nothing, etc.

Tribalism is dumb and sucks.