And Another Pictomancer Thread!

Hey fellow pictomancer mains and dabblers.

So I been talking to so many people about this job and it seems no one is really sure where this job will rank within the caster role.

For example. I am hearing it will rank BLM, PIC, SMN and RDM.

I really don’t think so though. I mean Yoshi. P said it’s not a pure support and not very attack focused either. So I take that as it will be a hybrid like bard is for the ranged physical role. It has good damage and good support. I also believe summoner will be losing its rez in DT which will put it closer to BLM I believe. So I rank it as BLM, SMN, PIC and RDM.

So I ask you all. Where do you think pictomancer will rank between the caster role. Do you think it will focus more on damage than support or more support than damage or do you believe like me it will be an equal hybrid job like bard is.

Can’t wait to hear your thoughts.

I think people have it right. I think it's going to be BLM PIC SMN RDM. Literally all Yoshi-P said was that they won't deal as much damage as BLM, and that they have buffs, but that they wouldn't consider it a support job. The closest this game has to support jobs is two of our physical ranged jobs (DNC, and BRD). They could have 1 buff and be more supportive than BLM. There's no way it's like a BRD. That throws off the balance. SE likes their balance. BLM and PIC will be DPS powerhouses with BLM being the selfish DPS with no buffs, PIC will be slightly below it, with a DPS utility of some kind. SMN and RDM will continue to be the rez mages, with RDM being more defensive.

The thing is there is a lot we don't know yet. I feel like there could be a big shakeup to ranged as a whole. BRD, and MCH could very well get pvp-style casts, and rez could be removed from all casters as well as changes, and additions to SMN, and RDM. It's just a big question mark. All we know is that PIC has a raid buff, and no rez, but I feel like its identity has wiggle room to potentially get one or two extra utility skills.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

The thing is there is a lot we don't know yet. I feel like there could be a big shakeup to ranged as a whole. BRD, and MCH could very well get pvp-style casts, and rez could be removed from all casters as well as changes, and additions to SMN, and RDM. It's just a big question mark. All we know is that PIC has a raid buff, and no rez, but I feel like its identity has wiggle room to potentially get one or two extra utility skills.

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The fact that Yoshi P made a point that pictomancer doesn’t have Rez, makes it pretty apparent that Rez for summoner and red mage aren’t going anywhere. I assume that we’ll have two casters that can Rez, and two casters that can’t.

Utility is tricky. There’s not much utility that’s ultimately that useful outside of rezzing or increasing damage. I think it’ll probably be damage increase. Maybe an expedience speed increase? Either way it should deal similar rdps as BLM with no Rez.

The exact quote was "It has magic that can buff the party. We wouldn't say that is a Full Support Job if that is what you're thinking, but it's not as Attack Focus as something like Black Mage."

The "buff the party" comment that was made at Fanfest is equivalent to saying that Reaper has provides support buff with its actions in the form of Arcane Circle. So, there is not much to go off of here.

For the rest what it translates to me is that it will not be at the level that Summoner/Red Mage is currently at as they both currently fall under the support category in the caster role. However, Pictomancer will not be a greedy DPS like Black Mage or Samurai. Thus, it will fall into place below Black Mage but above Red Mage and Summoner.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

The fact that Yoshi P made a point that pictomancer doesn’t have Rez, makes it pretty apparent that Rez for summoner and red mage aren’t going anywhere. I assume that we’ll have two casters that can Rez, and two casters that can’t.

Utility is tricky. There’s not much utility that’s ultimately that useful outside of rezzing or increasing damage. I think it’ll probably be damage increase. Maybe an expedience speed increase? Either way it should deal similar rdps as BLM with no Rez.

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A statement of PIC's lack of ability to rez does not automatically mean that SMN, and RDM will still have theirs. He didn't say anything like 'rest assured, RDM, and SMN will still have their rezzes.' IIRC they also said that SMN came extremely close to losing its rez during its rework which leads me to believe that the state of caster rezzes could potentially be in flux. If casters lose their rezzes, then I think healers' ability to rez should be buffed to compensate.

Everyone so far has compelling arguments. So far it seems most are in the field of PIC being slightly below BLM in damage while SMN and RDM will still bring the buffs/utility and rezzes. I still disagree but hey I’ve been wrong before so lol. I guess we shall see in the coming months. I do believe jobs are going to get shaken up a tad. Heck Yoshi P. Said in an interview that many of the current jobs will have completely new rotations. There is also the highly anticipated DRG/AST reworks too.

it will be a dps with a 2 min party CD, it will be stronger than BLM 1st tier, competitive 2nd tier and fall off hard last tier, thus the new job formula.

it will be overturned first raid tho just because everyone will want to play it so square will make sure its in the meta

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

it will be a dps with a 2 min party CD, it will be stronger than BLM 1st tier, competitive 2nd tier and fall off hard last tier, thus the new job formula.

it will be overturned first raid tho just because everyone will want to play it so square will make sure its in the meta

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New jobs are ever actually OP at launch. I feel like it’s usually the other way around. They typically need buffs, which will inevitably be really fast.

Yoshi-P has already said he doesn't like the rez on SMN. He said that SMN rez was planned to be cut pre-EW but they reverted that decision last minute due to the rework being too big, which makes me wonder if they are going to go forward with removing SMN rez after all in DT. I expect it will.

Without a rez SMN is as much of a support job as a MNK is, so where PIC falls in the list depends on SMN rez.

I agree with OP that it's going to be BLM - SMN - PIC - RDM.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

Yoshi-P has already said he doesn't like the rez on SMN. He said that SMN rez was planned to be cut pre-EW but they reverted that decision last minute due to the rework being too big, which makes me wonder if they are going to go forward with removing SMN rez after all in DT. I expect it will.

Without a rez SMN is as much of a support job as a MNK is, so where PIC falls in the list depends on SMN rez.

I agree with OP that it's going to be BLM - SMN - PIC - RDM.

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Couldn’t have said it better myself. You’re right though it all depends on if smn loses their Rez which more than likely they will.

At a glance it really looks like in terms of DPS it'll be:

BLM
PIC/SMN
RDM

It's amusing to me that they haven't made another caster that competes with BLM's spot in parties.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

At a glance it really looks like in terms of DPS it'll be:

BLM
PIC/SMN
RDM

It's amusing to me that they haven't made another caster that competes with BLM's spot in parties.

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That's because BLM is the SAM of casters. Every other melee DPS can boost party damage, but SAM has no damage utility, but the highest personal DPS.

I know Yoshi P said they wanted to get rid of Rez last expansion from SMN, but design philosophy changes. I think he was very purposeful in the way he mentioned the lack of Rez. I think he might have said that they’re rethinking Rez in terms of the caster role and that PIC won’t have it.

I don't mind the lack of battle rez. One less thing I'll have to worry about. Like BLM I can just go "not my problem".

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

I don't mind the lack of battle rez. One less thing I'll have to worry about. Like BLM I can just go "not my problem".

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Lol now that’s hilarious. I was just telling my friend this yesterday. I won’t have to rez anyone anymore.

Im kind of scared for what PCT might do to caster balance. Hopefully not what RPR did to melee which also bled into other roles.

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Originally Posted by Mecia

Im kind of scared for what PCT might do to caster balance. Hopefully not what RPR did to melee which also bled into other roles.

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Do explain what you mean by that? I’m curious.

One of the main benefits of adding new jobs is that they have the potential to be disruptive to the status quo. It gets incredibly boring when the same jobs dominate from expansion to expansion.

I think one of the biggest culprits for this is when there's a mindset that a particular job ought to always be 'the best' at a particular performance attribute. The worst offender was when WAR's 'identity' involved being the 'dps tank' across several expansions.

The one downside of a pure rDPS balance is that it generally doesn't take into account the hidden groupwide benefit of playing a 'selfish' DPS job under raid buffs. I think if you place SAM and BLM as the 'measuring stick' for selfish DPS, you risk giving them a free ride in raid balance into perpetuity. One of the reasons why I'm interested in seeing what happens with VPR is because the job may just turn out to be a selfish DPS with a personal buff window. If you introduce a second sword job alternative to challenge the 'selfish melee' position, you split the playerbase and get more diverse comps. I hope they make the job unambiguously harder in terms of positionals and APM, because we always see the same knee jerk reaction to new threats within a given role. Deny the naysayers a leg to even stand on.

I hope that PCT likewise has a chance to genuinely challenge BLM's position, at least from an rDPS perspective. I know that BLM will always tend to exist within a somewhat privileged position within the game's development given Yoshi-p's preferences, but there should not be such a disparity within the caster role group. I personally don't think utility should ever be used to argue in favor of a dps discrepancy. If raises are that big of a deal, give them to more jobs and restrict their uses per pull. Doing more damage should never be a job or subrole identity.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

Do explain what you mean by that? I’m curious.

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I recall RPR not being far behind SAM in DPS which for some reason lead to them buffing the other melee instead of nerfing a single one.

Maybe i remember wrong and the issue was just Arcane Crest.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I hope that PCT likewise has a chance to genuinely challenge BLM's position, at least from an rDPS perspective.

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I didnt mind when SMN poked at BLMs toes back in Stormblood but it was real job back then. Same would go for PCT but im not hopeful itll have a high ceiling.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

Do explain what you mean by that? I’m curious.

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Xenosys made a short vid about this topic I recommend checking out because he says it better. This is all assuming the balancing decisions align with EW with melee doing significantly more damage than ranged. Also it only considers high end content because that is the only content stuff should be balanced around. Job balance means absolutely nothing in dungeons/alliance/EX. PIC could do as much damage as a BTN and people would still play it in casual content with no repercussions.

In short, if SMN/RDM keep rez then PIC and BLM compete for the same caster slot and BLM will automatically be the better choice. It would not be good in a prog environment (like BLM) as it has no raise but wouldn't be good for parses/speeds because it wouldn't do high damage (like BLM). It won't be a go-to choice for hardcore raiders because of above issues and would not be a go-to choice for midcore/casual raiders because it wouldn't have the raise safety net.

If PIC is very easy like SMN and competes with BLM within a close DPS margin, then BLM becomes the screwed over job. BRD is currently in this situation where it barely pulls more damage than DNC but it's so much more difficult to play that there is zero reason to bring a BRD besides one-tricks (and people don't bring it - its the least played job in the game).

Unless changes are made to the role's balance as a whole, one of them is going to be the clear loser and will be purely a preference pick like BRD is now.

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Originally Posted by Mecia

Im kind of scared for what PCT might do to caster balance. Hopefully not what RPR did to melee which also bled into other roles.

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I think if anything it simplifies it. There are two types of casters. We have support casters in RDM and SMN with multiple support abilities, including Rez, and lower personal damage. Then you have BLM and PIC which deal more damage, with fewer defensive utility including Rez.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

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I don't think the point here was about the balance between subroles, because RPR was specifically mentioned.

When a job is added to a subrole, it disrupts the status quo. When RPR was added this expansion, it created a lot of insecurity within the melee dps subrole. The knee jerk reaction for players on those other jobs was to claim that their preferred job was somehow more challenging than the new job that they had no clue about how to optimize on. You can already see this same sentiment building up here, as there's already tacit assumption that PCT will somehow be 'easier' than BLM despite us having no idea what the rotation or skill checks are like.

People make these claims with the expectation that if they say that their job is 'harder', they'll be rewarded with a dps advantage for no additional effort. What ends up happening in practice is that Square Enix takes these complaints literally and starts simplifying jobs. The end result was that all the pre-existing melee dps jobs were backhanded by the Monkey's Paw. SAM became Kaitenless, NIN was tricked out of their one minute raid buff, and we'll see the full extent of the DRG rework next expansion. MNK thankfully managed to get out relatively unscathed as it has already had about seven reworks by this point. I suppose the point here is, if you're happy with your job's gameplay and you don't want a rework, then be very careful what you ask for.

PCT has the potential to disrupt caster dps in a similar vein next expansion. If it is anywhere near competitive to BLM next expansion, you can bet that people will take to the forums to complain about the relative difficulty of the jobs, valid or not. But hey, it's probably high time for BLM to get reworked anyways.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

Xenosys made a short vid about this topic I recommend checking out because he says it better. This is all assuming the balancing decisions align with EW with melee doing significantly more damage than ranged. Also it only considers high end content because that is the only content stuff should be balanced around. Job balance means absolutely nothing in dungeons/alliance/EX. PIC could do as much damage as a BTN and people would still play it in casual content with no repercussions.

In short, if SMN/RDM keep rez then PIC and BLM compete for the same caster slot and BLM will automatically be the better choice. It would not be good in a prog environment (like BLM) as it has no raise but wouldn't be good for parses/speeds because it wouldn't do high damage (like BLM). It won't be a go-to choice for hardcore raiders because of above issues and would not be a go-to choice for midcore/casual raiders because it wouldn't have the raise safety net.

If PIC is very easy like SMN and competes with BLM within a close DPS margin, then BLM becomes the screwed over job. BRD is currently in this situation where it barely pulls more damage than DNC but it's so much more difficult to play that there is zero reason to bring a BRD besides one-tricks (and people don't bring it - its the least played job in the game).

Unless changes are made to the role's balance as a whole, one of them is going to be the clear loser and will be purely a preference pick like BRD is now.

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I watched Xenia video and Arthas video on pictomancer and I must say they have their opinions but I do understand they are speaking from a hardcore high end like savage and ultimate. I still believe that SMN will lose its Rez which will then boost summoner behind blm. I guess we will see. I just don’t see pictomancer being close to blm in damage. Again, I could be wrong but hey I guess in the coming months with the media tour and the job actions trailer with dev explanations we will know more of how PIC will rank within the caster role.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

I watched Xenia video and Arthas video on pictomancer and I must say they have their opinions but I do understand they are speaking from a hardcore high end like savage and ultimate. I still believe that SMN will lose its Rez which will then boost summoner behind blm. I guess we will see. I just don’t see pictomancer being close to blm in damage. Again, I could be wrong but hey I guess in the coming months with the media tour and the job actions trailer with dev explanations we will know more of how PIC will rank within the caster role.

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The raiders opinions are premature. If Picto turns out better then expected they will backpedal. It all depends on Picto's full toolkit. Until the big keynote showcasing the every classes new actions it's too early to make a informed decision. Besides Arthars mains Ninja and Xenosys mains Tanks(mostly Warrior) so they aren't what I would consider the high authority on casters.

Same case with Viper really. Arthars mentions Viper and his praise for it amounts to if Viper sucks you at least have the same gear and can swap to Ninja. Which says more about Ninja then Viper.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

I don't mind the lack of battle rez. One less thing I'll have to worry about. Like BLM I can just go "not my problem".

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I have saved so many runs, dungeon and raid, with that rez. But maybe removing absolutely everything from the corpse would make it easier to let go.