The Leveling Problem explained.

I found this video from Rinon, it explains the leveling problem quite well.

https://youtu.be/X79CeOQ2Lqs?si=EN__VneuCzl-WvbF

In my opinion, the game is ripe for a level squish, especialy when there are now two more jobs coming and the MSQ is getting even longer.

and here is part 2

https://youtu.be/0njdBTmGom4?si=UJg6d_EtgTMuNFuE

I don't want to leave the forums and sit through videos. Please summarize.

The first video lost me when they stated that every job should get their first AoE at level 15. Let's develop bad habits as melee DPS (the ones who absolutely don't get an AoE at level 15). Players who get AoE at 15 tend to use it forever after, much like Ice Mages who realize they don't lose MP when they throw Blizzard.

No learning combos, no thinking about when AoE is appropriate and when is it not, during leveling. Just AoE everything, it works fine, right?!

Sure, there's information about non-AoE in the video, but the basic gist of the first video, repeated a number of times, is "AoE at 15".

Second video: Final Fantasy XIV doesn't teach you how to do your job "correctly".

Oddly enough, none of the MMORPGs out there do this, but, somehow, this is a requirement for creating good players in this game.

As though the players who've been battle hardened via Bloodbourne or Dark Souls games need to be told, in great detail apparently, how to play a game.

[Actually, the title is Here's why FFXIV Players are Bad. A wonderful start to a thoughtful essay on ... bah.

Do the videos make sense? Mostly.

Who are the video made for? The people who don't have any problems playing the game.

It certainly wasn't designed explicitly as a tutorial to enhance the playstyle of new players. Rather, it becomes a way to complain about those new players.

The only problem with leveling is that it goes too fast. It's done so you have enough xp with just the msq. Thus right now, if you do a few fates, roulettes, out of msq things, you're greatly overleveled.

Also, this

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Originally Posted by Rongway

I don't want to leave the forums and sit through videos. Please summarize.

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Thanks DPZ2.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

[Actually, the title is Here's why FFXIV Players are Bad. A wonderful start to a thoughtful essay on ... bah.

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Because the game never once through the entire playthrough of the MSQ requires you to properly play your job, There never is a dps check or anything where you actually need to think for a bit or practice(excluding certain sequences where you are forced to play different character, so you don't really know what you are doing, and even then you can lower the difficulty in case you fail.)
You can beat all teh trials even if you instantly die because the other teammates just kill it for you.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

The only problem with leveling is that it goes too fast. It's done so you have enough xp with just the msq. Thus right now, if you do a few fates, roulettes, out of msq things, you're greatly overleveled.

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Having just gone through EW myself, I can attest, this isn't 100% true. With intention to only ever take MSQ (and MSQ duties) exp on my main job, there were a couple gaps that required a few FATEs be cleared to bridge the levels. But, they're not terribly large. And honestly, for a story-driven game, it's for the best that players can experience the story without needing to interrupt for frequent grinding.

As for previous expansions.. well, yeah, you do out-level if you're starting any expansion higher than the original starting level cap, which you always will if you're starting from 1. But that's largely a product of level cap quests providing exp where they did not initially.

And while the simplistic answer to that is "don't add exp to level cap quests," then we're back to the original problem of players complaining that they're not getting anything from completing the more tedious patch quests.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

Because the game never once through the entire playthrough of the MSQ requires you to properly play your job, There never is a dps check or anything where you actually need to think for a bit or practice(excluding certain sequences where you are forced to play different character, so you don't really know what you are doing, and even then you can lower the difficulty in case you fail.)
You can beat all teh trials even if you instantly die because the other teammates just kill it for you.

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To some extent, after the changes made to gameplay over the years, this is quite true. Both power levels of attacks and the experience of players make a lot of the instances much easier.

However, with 20+ classes and jobs, creating high-end in-game tutorials for each would require a nightmare in resources, and one that would have to change extensively for each expansion.

I can guarantee that making such a tutorial mandatory for end-game gameplay after each expansion releases would tick off quite a number of high-end players. It would, however, remove the need for the so-called Mentoring System, so that might be a plus.

I'm not exactly sure why the Japanese servers do so well at end-game gameplay, with consistently higher percentages engaging in and completing the content. Are they just that much better at the game, despite the fact that the MSQ does not require you to properly play your job?

Or, perhaps, are they more dedicated to finding and learning from resources outside of the game?

For all of the complaining Rinon does in the two videos mentioned by the OP, I haven't found a single "learn to do better during the MSQ" video. Lots of end-game commentary on healing, yes, but nothing that walks a new player through the best habits to develop for healers while leveling. It's a common fault throughout the youtube ecosystem. Lots of "How to Raid" without any consideration of "how to prepare to raid while leveling". At least most of the jobs mentioned on the icy-veins website (example: https://www.icy-veins.com/ffxiv/white-mage-leveling) provide level-appropriate rotations for the job that will make sense as end-game approaches. Alas, Youtube creators do not yet feel the need to help develop the necessary skills while leveling.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

Because the game never once through the entire playthrough of the MSQ requires you to properly play your job, There never is a dps check or anything where you actually need to think for a bit or practice(excluding certain sequences where you are forced to play different character, so you don't really know what you are doing, and even then you can lower the difficulty in case you fail.)
You can beat all teh trials even if you instantly die because the other teammates just kill it for you.

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What MMORPGs do in leveling content? Challenge requiring knowledge of how to play a job tends to only exist in the end game side content.

There's the other issue of "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink". It doesn't matter what tutorials a game has. If someone doesn't want to learn, they won't. Those interested in learning how to play better will. Some players might even learn and still play incorrectly just because they can.

It's an old argument that goes nowhere because it's useless in an online game. Don't like how well the random players you get matched with play the game? Create a circle of friends that you trust and play with them instead.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Having just gone through EW myself, I can attest, this isn't 100% true. With intention to only ever take MSQ (and MSQ duties) exp on my main job, there were a couple gaps that required a few FATEs be cleared to bridge the levels.

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Part of it depends on how you play the game. If you're playing several hours a day each day, you're going to miss out on most of the rested XP bonus that bridges those gaps. If you're playing 6-8 hours total a week, it shouldn't be a problem.

If you don't own the next expansion and reach level cap for the expansion you do have, that's also going to contribute. Even if the amount of XP earned from patch content is small, it does add up and you lose it if you're doing the patch content while level capped.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I can guarantee that making such a tutorial mandatory for end-game gameplay after each expansion releases would tick off quite a number of high-end players. It would, however, remove the need for the so-called Mentoring System, so that might be a plus.

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The Mentor system isn't about teaching others how to play their jobs (though that can be part of it if a Mentor wants to share what they know). The Mentor system is to help new players with general game basics. Where is such and such located, how do I unlock this content, what do I do to get this item, this queue is too long can someone help me get this done for MSQ, etc.

What SE needs to do to fix the Mentor system is remove the rewards.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Part of it depends on how you play the game. If you're playing several hours a day each day, you're going to miss out on most of the rested XP bonus that bridges those gaps. If you're playing 6-8 hours total a week, it shouldn't be a problem.

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Rested only applies to combat exp. There's truly very little actual combat through MSQ. The occasional "kill a few of these enemies" or "stand here and kill what spawns," and duties that are spread out. The vast majority of MSQ leveling exp is purely quest exp, which rested will not apply to and won't be used up for. At no point did I ever manage to catch up to rested bonus through EW.

What does help bridge those MSQ gaps is things like exploration bonus exp (I swapped to a different job to explore new maps) and sightseeing exp (again, swapped jobs for those bonuses). Sightseeing is definitely good to have unlocked and up to date just for those little boosts.

Point is, if you take a job starting at 80 at the first EW quest, taking only what exp you will get from MSQ quests, role quests, and one trip through each duty along the way, you'll find 2-3 points where MSQ ticks up a level before you've dinged, and will have to supplement with the activity of your choice. I didn't feel like running extra duties/roulettes mid-story, so I stuck with FATEs. And, to be clear, these are still small gaps, bridged with only a few FATEs at most.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

I don't want to leave the forums and sit through videos. Please summarize.

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They suggest people should have a full rotation by 50 and because of us having so many levels now, we're getting abilities at a rate that makes it hard for new players to learn their jobs.

As someone who has leveled up every job, the fact Dragoon doesn't get their first AoE until 40 is a crime. I was straight up mad leveling up Dragoon. Why are people doing wall to wall pulls in these lowbie dungeons and don't nobody got an AoE?!

Having your entire rotation at 50 does run into the MNK problem though where the job gets boring to level because beyond level 60 you are basically just getting small potency changes and buffs you stuff into the burst window anyway

Like BLM’s levelling experience is a mess but at least the class both feels somewhat like a class at level 50 but also feels like a totally different (and actually good class) at level 90

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Having your entire rotation at 50 does run into the MNK problem though where the job gets boring to level because beyond level 60 you are basically just getting small potency changes and buffs you stuff into the burst window anyway

Like BLM’s levelling experience is a mess but at least the class both feels somewhat like a class at level 50 but also feels like a totally different (and actually good class) at level 90

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It's funny you feel that way because MNK is one of my favorite classes while BLM was the one and only job I could not stand to play. While all other jobs I would do all my roulettes as that job, I ended up hating BLM so much that I leveled it through PVP and just switched to a different job once I was in. And whenever I complained about how bad it was people assured me "it's good at endgame" and I've seen people recommend buying a skip rather than trying to level a BLM. So what you're stating as a virtue, a lot of the playerbase feels makes the job unplayable at lower levels. You are the first person I've ever met who said they like low level BLM. It feels so awful and unfinished I was looking up guides assuming I was missing something. I'd argue no job in the game suffers from the skill stretch more than BLM, not even single-target Dragoon.

I just want new jobs to start at level 1. Kinda feels cheap letting them skip to level 50, 60, etc..upon unlock. I enjoy leveling and feel kinda cheated when it's already mostly done.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Rested only applies to combat exp. There's truly very little actual combat through MSQ. The occasional "kill a few of these enemies" or "stand here and kill what spawns," and duties that are spread out. The vast majority of MSQ leveling exp is purely quest exp, which rested will not apply to and won't be used up for. At no point did I ever manage to catch up to rested bonus through EW.

What does help bridge those MSQ gaps is things like exploration bonus exp (I swapped to a different job to explore new maps) and sightseeing exp (again, swapped jobs for those bonuses). Sightseeing is definitely good to have unlocked and up to date just for those little boosts.

Point is, if you take a job starting at 80 at the first EW quest, taking only what exp you will get from MSQ quests, role quests, and one trip through each duty along the way, you'll find 2-3 points where MSQ ticks up a level before you've dinged, and will have to supplement with the activity of your choice. I didn't feel like running extra duties/roulettes mid-story, so I stuck with FATEs. And, to be clear, these are still small gaps, bridged with only a few FATEs at most.

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You're forgetting the dungeons that are part of MSQ. The bonus does apply to the dungeon bosses and it does add up. I've seen the difference each expansion release as I first level this character almost without a break in MSQ followed by my alts that do it at a slower pace.

Either way, as you say the gap is fairly small and a few FATEs (or a roulette if that's the player's preference) to fill the gap isn't a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

They suggest people should have a full rotation by 50 and because of us having so many levels now, we're getting abilities at a rate that makes it hard for new players to learn their jobs.

As someone who has leveled up every job, the fact Dragoon doesn't get their first AoE until 40 is a crime. I was straight up mad leveling up Dragoon. Why are people doing wall to wall pulls in these lowbie dungeons and don't nobody got an AoE?!

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The tank will always have their first AoE by the time they do Sastasha.

Archer has Quick Nock at 18, Thaumaturge has Blizzard II at 12, Machinist has Spread Shot at 18, Red Mage has Scatter at 15, Dancer has Windmill and Standard Finish at 15.

Most of the remaining DPS get their first AoE at 25 or 26, which means they're only missing an AoE for the first 3 MSQ dungeons plus Halatali since Toto-Rak level syncs to 27. Rogue, Lancer and the healers are the ones that don't have an AoE by the time they reach 30.

If every job got every action type at the same level, it would just add more to the cries of too much homogenization. It might feel awkward but it does help add to a unique job identity.

As for getting the complete kit by 50, no thanks. There's no point in continuing to have levels in a RPG if your character won't be learning anything new and potency increases through traits aren't learning something new. They're just a different form of power creep that already gets out of hand with end game gear upgrades.

I understand that you feel differently but this is going to be one of those areas where players are going to end up split on which is a more satisfying experience.

the problem is that they need to detach access to zones and non msq questlines from MSQ and make them level based instead.

for instance raids and such, if your level 90 but still in ARR then you should still be able to travel to zones and pick up quests to unlock grp content.

the game forces you to rush a 2 month long quest line to play with friends, let us do the quest at our own pace, but allow us to unlock things separately even if its spoilers, we are big boys and girls, we can make that choice ourselves.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

The tank will always have their first AoE by the time they do Sastasha.

Archer has Quick Nock at 18, Thaumaturge has Blizzard II at 12, Machinist has Spread Shot at 18, Red Mage has Scatter at 15, Dancer has Windmill and Standard Finish at 15.

Most of the remaining DPS get their first AoE at 25 or 26, which means they're only missing an AoE for the first 3 MSQ dungeons plus Halatali since Toto-Rak level syncs to 27. Rogue, Lancer and the healers are the ones that don't have an AoE by the time they reach 30.

If every job got every action type at the same level, it would just add more to the cries of too much homogenization. It might feel awkward but it does help add to a unique job identity.

As for getting the complete kit by 50, no thanks. There's no point in continuing to have levels in a RPG if your character won't be learning anything new and potency increases through traits aren't learning something new. They're just a different form of power creep that already gets out of hand with end game gear upgrades.

I understand that you feel differently but this is going to be one of those areas where players are going to end up split on which is a more satisfying experience.

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It was two dragoons and a white mage. We kept wiping because in the lower zones you can pull everything for five miles and no one had an AoE but the tank, which I don't think he realized based on how he was pulling. There is no excuse for any job to not have an AoE in their 30s. Doubly so if that job is supposed to be dps. The only reason it's stretched out in a weird, stupid way is because we have 90 levels now and they want you to keep getting goodies as you level. But it seems to have been figured out by different people, which is why some jobs have rotations by 50 while other jobs have nothing. That's not good, that's not fun, that's not satisfying. How many people are doing their roulettes because they enjoy going through level 30 dungeons with their two abilities and not because they need tomestones?

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

It was two dragoons and a white mage. We kept wiping because in the lower zones you can pull everything for five miles and no one had an AoE but the tank, which I don't think he realized based on how he was pulling. There is no excuse for any job to not have an AoE in their 30s. Doubly so if that job is supposed to be dps. The only reason it's stretched out in a weird, stupid way is because we have 90 levels now and they want you to keep getting goodies as you level. But it seems to have been figured out by different people, which is why some jobs have rotations by 50 while other jobs have nothing. That's not good, that's not fun, that's not satisfying. How many people are doing their roulettes because they enjoy going through level 30 dungeons with their two abilities and not because they need tomestones?

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Personally I'm more on your side about every class/job having one AoE by level 30. I don't think it's necessary for everyone to have one at 15 though. I did want to point out how everyone getting the same abilities at the same level just add to the dissatisfaction with jobs being homogenized and feeling mostly the same.

The first 3 dungeons do not need the AoEs even if the tank is chain pulling. If the wipe was in Sastasha, Tam Tara or Copperbell, it sounds more like the tank didn't communicate with the rest of the party about what they intended to do or make certain they're aware that certain trash will reset if you run past without attacking/healing.

But by the time players reach Haukke Manor, those AoEs have become important. If a class doesn't already have an AoE by then, I'd be onboard with SE making an AoE the skill rewarded with their level 30 class quest.

I do challenge your statement that there are jobs with nothing for a rotation at level 50. I can't think of any job where that is true other than the healers, which I'm fine with even as a healer main.

As for roulettes, if you're after tomestones there are better choices to make than the leveling or guildhest roulettes. Those the only ones that will drop you down to low levels with only 2 buttons to use. You'll be 50 or higher in the rest.

I had no idea that giving all jobs a low-level AoE was now controversial. I suppose it's supposed to feel good when you go into a leveling roulette as dragoon and ninja and suddenly the only thing you can do is blink away at one target (and constantly getting interrupted because facing issues while attacking and running) while the bard and tank mow down groups and the healer gets to actually heal for once.

Who would have thought that when you remove a resource to regulate your aoe spam, no teamplay in regards to aggro, powercreep the game so you can take more hits and heal more that the combat would start to feel like it's an afterthought.
These changes were made because ppl cried that TP, MP, aggro, healing are too "cumbersome" or whatever buzzword they could think for their own incompetence. This is comedy at this point.

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Originally Posted by Solakor

Who would have thought that when you remove a resource to regulate your aoe spam, no teamplay in regards to aggro, powercreep the game so you can take more hits and heal more that the combat would start to feel like it's an afterthought.
These changes were made because ppl cried that TP, MP, aggro, healing are too "cumbersome" or whatever buzzword they could think for their own incompetence. This is comedy at this point.

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To be fair TP was atrociously designed, sprint consumed it, arrow evaporated it and in a random duty you would never know if you got a job that could actually keep TP up at a decent rate

The rest I agree, we bought on ourselves, tanks complaining about stances, DPS complaining about hitting agro buttons, healer complaining about mana, while I still disagree on the difficulty designs decisions on even basic things like how hard mobs hit its easy to see why we have the current beige dungeon design we have now

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Originally Posted by Solakor

These changes were made because ppl cried that TP, MP, aggro, healing are too "cumbersome" or whatever buzzword they could think for their own incompetence. This is comedy at this point.

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Well, you see making changes like this have consequences and need additional changes. i really think people should be responsible to know how many enemies they can pull at once, there are only a few dungeons that allow for more than two packs of enemies before you are blocked by a door.
Dungeons are not difficult, there is no reason to artificially slow down players if they can or want to go faster. there are some dungeons that allow you for bigger pulls like the Gulg, but i have never managed to pull all 5 packs at the beginning, mos tpeople do 3-2 before the boss, but giving you the option to do all 5 packs is a good thing.

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Originally Posted by typeaxiom

I had no idea that giving all jobs a low-level AoE was now controversial. I suppose it's supposed to feel good when you go into a leveling roulette as dragoon and ninja and suddenly the only thing you can do is blink away at one target (and constantly getting interrupted because facing issues while attacking and running) while the bard and tank mow down groups and the healer gets to actually heal for once.

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I just assume it's defensiveness because I refuse to believe anyone argues in all seriousness that some jobs getting their first AoE at 15 and others at 40 is a well-considered, properly functioning game design because anyone who has done a leveling roulette in the past few years knows it's not.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

I just assume it's defensiveness because I refuse to believe anyone argues in all seriousness that some jobs getting their first AoE at 15 and others at 40 is a well-considered, properly functioning game design because anyone who has done a leveling roulette in the past few years knows it's not.

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Sastasha, Tam Tara and Copperbell were designed for single target damage because once upon a time tanks didn't have AoE at level 15. I think only ARC and THA had AoEs at that level.

As I pointed out above, only 2 DPS are missing an AoE by level 26 so once you get to Toto-Rak (sync to 27) it's going to be extremely rare that you end up in a party where only the tank has an AoE.

There is nothing wrong with having jobs with single target damage as part of their job identity early on. No one is cherry-picking who gets to go into Qarn on the basis of AoE.

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

the problem is that they need to detach access to zones and non msq questlines from MSQ and make them level based instead.

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Zone access is tied to the story and letting people just march into the Super Secret Place on a whim undermines the story's ability to keep it super secret.

As something of a compromise, I would not mind seeing an option for people to be eligible for dungeons beyond their story progress in roulettes to encourage participation there while still forcing people to make story progress if they want to queue fie a thing manually.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Zone access is tied to the story and letting people just march into the Super Secret Place on a whim undermines the story's ability to keep it super secret.

As something of a compromise, I would not mind seeing an option for people to be eligible for dungeons beyond their story progress in roulettes to encourage participation there while still forcing people to make story progress if they want to queue fie a thing manually.

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I think having the ability to willingly spoil your self at your own choice is still better than the game forcing a spoiler on you because you did a leveling roulette.

my argument is for the sake of being able to enjoy the story instead of feeling like you have to rush or skip the story just to play with your friends in the content you want. for many this is not our first MMORPG, some new player want to get to raid with their friends, and the story will always come second to that.

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

I think having the ability to willingly spoil your self at your own choice is still better than the game forcing a spoiler on you because you did a leveling roulette.

my argument is for the sake of being able to enjoy the story instead of feeling like you have to rush or skip the story just to play with your friends in the content you want. for many this is not our first MMORPG, some new player want to get to raid with their friends, and the story will always come second to that.

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There's nothing to stop them from raiding together even if the friend is starting from scratch on MSQ. It doesn't take that long to get through 2.0 and unlock Coils and/or CT.

If friends are trying to rush a new player through the leveling content, they don't sound like very good friends. NG+ and level sync exist so they can still play together.

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

I think having the ability to willingly spoil your self at your own choice is still better than the game forcing a spoiler on you because you did a leveling roulette.

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The thing is, it's not as simple as "just let people into the higher areas" because then things have to be structured differently. You can't gate off the final zone as something special reached by an unusual mechanism or story event; it has to be a straightforward door that anyone can pass through at will.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

To some extent, after the changes made to gameplay over the years, this is quite true. Both power levels of attacks and the experience of players make a lot of the instances much easier.

However, with 20+ classes and jobs, creating high-end in-game tutorials for each would require a nightmare in resources, and one that would have to change extensively for each expansion.

I can guarantee that making such a tutorial mandatory for end-game gameplay after each expansion releases would tick off quite a number of high-end players. It would, however, remove the need for the so-called Mentoring System, so that might be a plus.

I'm not exactly sure why the Japanese servers do so well at end-game gameplay, with consistently higher percentages engaging in and completing the content. Are they just that much better at the game, despite the fact that the MSQ does not require you to properly play your job?

Or, perhaps, are they more dedicated to finding and learning from resources outside of the game?

For all of the complaining Rinon does in the two videos mentioned by the OP, I haven't found a single "learn to do better during the MSQ" video. Lots of end-game commentary on healing, yes, but nothing that walks a new player through the best habits to develop for healers while leveling. It's a common fault throughout the youtube ecosystem. Lots of "How to Raid" without any consideration of "how to prepare to raid while leveling". At least most of the jobs mentioned on the icy-veins website (example: https://www.icy-veins.com/ffxiv/white-mage-leveling) provide level-appropriate rotations for the job that will make sense as end-game approaches. Alas, Youtube creators do not yet feel the need to help develop the necessary skills while leveling.

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Because l know people that are even afraid to do story mode content... I have a pvp friend that can't do her relic because she has not done any pve for a long time and is afraid for that story mode trial.... I will help her later tonight.

In my first FC there were two really great max-level (aka level 50) crafters who were that way when it came to combat as well.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The thing is, it's not as simple as "just let people into the higher areas" because then things have to be structured differently. You can't gate off the final zone as something special reached by an unusual mechanism or story event; it has to be a straightforward door that anyone can pass through at will.

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this is one thing that always bothered me about WoW, you could enter any dungeon through the dungeon finder simply by reaching a certain character level, but you ahd no idea where that dungeon even is or why youa re in tehre or who the bosses are, this didn't matter that much when WoW was less story driven in classic.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

It's a common fault throughout the youtube ecosystem. Lots of "How to Raid" without any consideration of "how to prepare to raid while leveling".

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That's a thing I noticed when I was trying to pick BLM back up a few months ago. Most "How to [Insert Job]" videos I came across came in one of two flavors: meme videos, which generally aren't very helpful and are mostly unimportant fluff; and "guides" that just recite the tooltip of every job before launching into end-game rotations, just assuming the viewer is already aware of all the nuances of the job's mechanics and how they effect each other, but never explaining them.

Maybe there's stuff out there that goes into that and I just didn't come across it, but it really feels like there's a general lack of tutorial content floating around that actually explains the workings of a job from the ground up. It's very strange considering how popular the game is.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

There's nothing to stop them from raiding together even if the friend is starting from scratch on MSQ. It doesn't take that long to get through 2.0 and unlock Coils and/or CT.

If friends are trying to rush a new player through the leveling content, they don't sound like very good friends. NG+ and level sync exist so they can still play together.

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I think you misconstrue my entire point because i assume you believe the only way to play this mmorpg is as a single player story crawl.
some players just want to get to CURRENT content and play with friends, some players even, dare i say, dont care about the story..

Some people would very much like to get to current content asap and actually PROG with their friends and then do the story at their own pace on their own time..
if thats not you then dont, but stop gatekeeping everyone to your assumed right way of playing, this community is very toxic when it comes to the ideal of not caring about the story.

telling someone to go threw 40-60 hours of arr quest lines rushing just to run coils is enough to destroy all the enjoyment of this game, especially when you buy a game to play with friends and instead you are led threw content they all know and can clear without you even playing while already knowing all the strats and just waiting on you to catch up is not playing with friends, its babysitting..

also NG+ doesn't allow you to play together, in fact most quests requite you to not even be in a party together so you can be sucked in to a solo instance.. following a new player around and doting on the fact that you know all the spoilers and have all the mounts they cant even attempt to get is not playing together, its just feeding your ego.

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Originally Posted by Mayhemmer

It's very strange considering how popular the game is.

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No , you are correct, the Black Mage job is very unintuitive and badly explained in the game. Also the gameplay style changes completly while leveling.

first you must switch from fire to ice via Transpose, then you get Fire 3 but cant actually use it unless you get a freecast, but the freecast proccs at the very end of a fire cast so you have 0.5 seconds to react and use it, then you get Ice 3 to switch from fire to ice and don't use transpose anymore at all. Also you dont use Fire3 freecasts anymore, you only use it to refrech henochian at the end of the fire rotation.
And very much later you get Umbral Soul which seems useless at first glance but before you get Umbral Soul BLM feels extremly clunky in any fight with downtimes.
The job is fine on high levels but feels totaly trash on low levels.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

No , you are correct, the Black Mage job is very unintuitive and badly explained in the game. Also the gameplay style changes completly while leveling.

first you must switch from fire to ice via Transpose, then you get Fire 3 but cant actually use it unless you get a freecast, but the freecast proccs at the very end of a fire cast so you have 0.5 seconds to react and use it

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To be clear here, the freecast for Fire 3 because of the Firestarter trait gained at level 42 has a 30 second countdown, not 0.5 seconds. One can also anticipate it a bit, since the tiny icon appears before the action icon lights up.

I totally agree that Black Mage feels pretty decent at higher levels, and it does require readjustment once you hit level 50, and again when you hit level 60. Moving from ARR into HW was definitely a relearning experience.

I'd have been quite happy if icy-veins had started FFXIV leveling information back in 2015, but ... at least it's much better now. No thanks to youtube videos, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

To be clear here, the freecast for Fire 3 because of the Firestarter trait gained at level 42 has a 30 second countdown, not 0.5 seconds.

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No, you misunderstood, you can get the freecast when Fire is >0.5seconds from finishing the cast, and you now WANT to use Fire 3 and not cast another fire to not waste any proccs because the freecast does not stack like fleeting Raiju from ninja which you can stack 3 charges.

so when youa re lucky with proccs you do Fire > Fire 3 > Fire > Fire 3 > Fire....

Yeah, I understood what that meant. And you're right. Stacking Firestarter would be incredibly convenient (even tho at this point it probably won't happen until high levels where it's less critical..).

That said, the gameplay style evolving as you level is one of my favorite aspects of the job. I remember, years ago (before spells got shuffled down), helping several sprouts in Stone Vigil runs understand their new tools, and that Aha! moment when it all clicks and you see how the pieces fit, it's incredibly satisfying.

But, that also speaks again to how the game doesn't adequately explain the pieces as you learn them