(Thaleia Spoiler) It's weird that...

So now that the Twelve are dead, it's weird looking on my character sheet and seeing that my Guardian is Nymeia. I don't think it's urgent or even necessary to fill, but I most definitely have a vacancy in the Guardian department now...

IIRC, isn't part of the "deal" that we aren't telling anyone the "real" story about the gods? As far as the general population of Eorzea knows, the Twelve are still around and going just as strong as they always have.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

So now that the Twelve are dead, it's weird looking on my character sheet and seeing that my Guardian is Nymeia. I don't think it's urgent or even necessary to fill, but I most definitely have a vacancy in the Guardian department now...

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Maybe you're your own guardian now? :)

I am the one who guards.

With so many people supporting us as the WoL, I really wonder if we are a pseudo primal at this point. It would explain why we are so crazy overpowered.

Who knows, maybe we will fill the void in the twelve. But, we better get our pictures and stories straight or we may get reprogrammed by the masses.

Prayers to the Twelve are still going to the Seventh Heaven for handling by that golden faith engine they left behind.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

With so many people supporting us as the WoL, I really wonder if we are a pseudo primal at this point. It would explain why we are so crazy overpowered.

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Plot Twist: Louisoix didn't send the WoL "five years into the future" during the battle at Carteneau. They just died, and were later summoned as a Primal "Warrior of Light." Could be the same thing during the Endsinger battle, with the Scions praying for them. WoL thinks they were shielded from a deadly attack, but nope. Died again, re-summoned.

Heck, maybe all the times you wipe in a duty are canon, and you need to be replicated each time. Another Echo of the Warrior of Light, fresh from the oven. Just look at the new version of the ARR Lahabrea fight -- you die in that, and Hydaelyn literally uses crystals to summon you back, just like a Primal.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

So now that the Twelve are dead, it's weird looking on my character sheet and seeing that my Guardian is Nymeia. I don't think it's urgent or even necessary to fill, but I most definitely have a vacancy in the Guardian department now...

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There is a bit of a void now. Canonically, my character would pay respects to both Menphina and Haurchefant at the summit of Providence Point and she has continued to do so despite losing her Patron deity. In her mind, she always viewed the Twelve as spiritual entities of prayer from Eorzeans. Upon learning of their identities and that they were once Ancients similar to Venat and Emet with physical forms, it conflicted with her beliefs in such a way that she immediately separated the spiritual Twelve whom she prayed to as a child from the actual Twelve who she fought in their respective heavens. I emphasize the pronouns here to express her thought process. In her eyes, the continued prayers of Eorzeans to their chosen deities are still valid because the gods are spiritual, and their names do not cease to exist because their representatives have returned to the star. IOW, they are not dead, because they cannot die.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

With so many people supporting us as the WoL, I really wonder if we are a pseudo primal at this point. It would explain why we are so crazy overpowered.

Who knows, maybe we will fill the void in the twelve. But, we better get our pictures and stories straight or we may get reprogrammed by the masses.

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This thought process is similar to Omega and why it could not ascertain why the WoL is so powerful. It kept trying to equate his/her strength with physical might and combat prowess, but it does not work that way. Yes, the WoL is exceptionally powerful in both regards, but he/she is still mortal with mortal limits. Some of these are circumvented via the blessing from Hydealyn, the Kojin blessing, the pact with The Great Wyrm - Midgarsormr, being the reincarnation of Azem and possessing his/her crystal, and their soul being eight times rejoined opposed to the seven times for everyone else on the Source. All of this combines for putting the WoL leagues above normal people on Etheirys, but he/she is still mortal. As a mortal the WoL possesses an incomprehensible power that is otherwise known as hope and/or heart. Love. Love for his/her family and friends. Love for the star. Love for existence itself. This is what truly propels the WoL beyond the limits of mortality. The further he/she is pushed, the stronger it gets, and the more that rally to their cause to help when the WoL can't do it alone.

It's goes well beyond what a primal is capable of. Primals for example use their influence to temper those of worship, making them lose their free will. The WoL does not need to do this. Those who fight and support the WoL do so of their own accord, because they believe in him/her so strongly. And as I pointed out earlier, there really isn't a true void to fill in the absence of the Twelve.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

...she immediately separated the spiritual Twelve whom she prayed to as a child from the actual Twelve who she fought in their respective heavens. I emphasize the pronouns here to express her thought process.

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That's not a meaningful distinction between them. The choice of "who" versus "whom" is purely determined by the word's place in the sentence, same as deciding between "they" and "them".

You appear to be treating it as past tense versus present tense, which is not what the words convey.

The only reason you would switch the word choice there is whether you're going for informal or formal grammar – "the gods (who) she prayed to" versus "the gods to whom she prayed".

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Originally Posted by Iscah

"the gods (who) she prayed to" versus "the gods to whom she prayed".

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Prescriptive grammar says it's "whom" in both those cases, as they are the object--the recipient of the prayer--rather than the subject. Prescriptive grammar indicates "who" when "who" is the subject--that is, the person doing the praying.

The reality of grammar, however, is that nobody will misunderstand you if you say "who" when a "whom" would be prescribed, and the use of "who" in places where "whom" is prescribed is not going to disappear from the language any time soon, so "who" is also fine to use.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

The reality of grammar, however, is that nobody will misunderstand you if you say "who" when a "whom" would be prescribed, and the use of "who" in places where "whom" is prescribed is not going to disappear from the language any time soon, so "who" is also fine to use.

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I know that nobody will misunderstand the wrong choice of form. That's not the issue here.

The issue is the claim that choosing different forms between "[entity 1] whom she prayed to" and "[entity 2] who she fought" will tell you something about the differing natures of the entities, which it does not.

I put the one sentence in two forms to show that it is sentence order and not meaning that affects which one is used in a situation.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

It's goes well beyond what a primal is capable of. Primals for example use their influence to temper those of worship, making them lose their free will. The WoL does not need to do this. Those who fight and support the WoL do so of their own accord, because they believe in him/her so strongly. And as I pointed out earlier, there really isn't a true void to fill in the absence of the Twelve.

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Just a quick one though, primals do not need to do this either. The only reason they do is that the ascians taught the tribes corrupted versions of summoning magic, thus forcing them to temper.