Ranger?

When is Ranger coming to FFXIV? Currently, the only Bows in the game have a harp add-on/attachment because Bard is the bow class but it's not satisfying to play as a combo support job.

Ranger in FFXI could use Bows and Guns with interchangeable weaponskills, the only difference I really remember was whether you wanted to use a Bow or a Gun. This would be great in FFXIV for those of us that would like to be a Physical ranged, Bow class without the support aspect caked into the job.

Considering how much inspiration FFXIV takes from previous games, I'm shocked Ranger(RNG) isn't in FFXIV yet.

What are yalls thoughts on this?

The likely answer is that it's not. In the same way that I wouldn't expect Thief to come to FF14 because Rogue is already a class, I don't expect Ranger to come to FF14 because Archer is already a class. Both are classes that could have been their own thing all the way to level cap, but they got absorbed into a different class and thus never got to reach that potential.

When?

At least not till the expansion after Dawntrail... if at all. They already confirmed the roles of the two jobs that will be added, which are Viper (melee DPS) and a casting DPS job.

Though the sound of your complaint seems to be bow aesthetics, to which I recommend doing a better look at the various bows in the game, and select one without a harp. The Diamond Bow from Omega Sigmascape Savage is a personal favorite, but there are many others that don't have a harp on the bow.

Technically, Arcanist broke off in Summoner and Scholar so it can be done.

Yes and no. The aesthetic is part of the complaint, the other half of that is the playstyle. Bowharp support class. A straight up physical ranged would be awesome that uses a Bow, such as Ranger. Class fantasy can't be achieved when it does something odd like Bowharp. :/

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Originally Posted by DukeBurden

Technically, Arcanist broke off in Summoner and Scholar so it can be done.

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Except the Dev team have already stated that it was a nightmare to work with, which is now why Summoner and Scholar are essentially different jobs which share nothing from Arcanist (except Resurrection). Pretty sure, if they could go back, they wouldn't have done it.

If they were going to do it, they would need a weapon that hasn't been used yet, so maybe a Crossbow rather than a Bow. Regardless, it isn't coming any time soon, as wereotter pointed out.

most likely never happening unfortunately, since it's effectively been morphed into Bard. the closest thing to a non-Bard Ranger I could feasibly see happening is a future job that loosely borrows some ideas or aesthetics from it, such as how RDM and RPR uses the names of some FFXI abilities/skills from Rune Fencer and DRK respectively.

there's still some weapons that could be used for a future physical ranged job such as snipers, crossbows, or hell- they could even make an entirely unique weapon tailor made for that specific job like RDM with its foci or SGE with its funnels. the first thought that comes to mind in this regard is Black Desert's Archer, which uses both arm-fixed crossbows and a longbow that uses a catalyst in place of an arrow.

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Originally Posted by DukeBurden

Technically, Arcanist broke off in Summoner and Scholar so it can be done.

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What you're saying doesn't track, so I'm guessing you may not be aware of the history of this class. Initially, Arcanist only became Summoner. Later on, Scholar was added. So this example only works as a counter-argument to my point if you think that Scholar is a more robust version of Arcanist...which I'm guessing you surely don't think, since Scholar is an entirely different type of job with an entirely different kit and job focus (Arcanist being DPS, and Scholar being a healer).

As far as what can technically be done, there are no limits. If CBU3 decided to, they could of course add Thief and Ranger and Fighter and Black Belt to the game; there are hundreds of ways they could go about this. If you want to talk about what's possible, then anything you say, no matter how unlikely, is fair game.

My answer was not based on what is possible, but rather what is probable. Reviewing the most prominent job-based Final Fantasy games — FF3, FF5, FF Tactics, and FF11 — each of them have either Archer or Ranger, but never both. Presumably, much like Rogue and Thief, this is because one of the following is true:

• despite the variation in class name in different games, these are overall seen as being the same class, and the difference is simply an issue of nomenclature
• the classes are different, but not different enough to ever warrant having both in the same game

And indeed, if we look at Archer/Bard, we can see that it already has the ability most frequently associated with Rangers: Barrage. I read this as an indication that the developers are treating Ranger and Archer/Bard as the same class in FF14.

If you want to hold out hope, that is your choice. But personally, I find hope that is never fulfilled to be draining and painful, which is why I wouldn't recommend it in this case.

Yeah, it's frustrating. If only we could go back in time, and tell the dev team to have archer upgrade to ranger, and make bard a different job that uses a harp. But we are stuck with the current circumstances of having a job that uses a bow, but is called bard. The bard problem was also compounded with the introduction of dancer. Dancer absolutely stole the spotlight of support dps, and cannot give it up because that would go against its identity -- especially with how dance partner works as well. So BRD is now in a weird spot where making it a even more of a support dps would compete too much with dancer, and go against its archer roots. And focusing too much on archery would mean failing its namesake as a bard.

So I think BRD needs a new identity, one that can allow it to deliver both satisfying archery gameplay, and satisfying musical gameplay. My suggestion is to make BRD a rock star. One could feel like a rock star when pulling off trick shots as an archer. And songs should feel viscerally impactful for both the BRD, and their party like each fight rock concert. How this vision can be translated mechanically can be up for discussion.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

What you're saying doesn't track, so I'm guessing you may not be aware of the history of this class. Initially, Arcanist only became Summoner. Later on, Scholar was added. So this example only works as a counter-argument to my point if you think that Scholar is a more robust version of Arcanist...which I'm guessing you surely don't think, since Scholar is an entirely different type of job with an entirely different kit and job focus (Arcanist being DPS, and Scholar being a healer).

As far as what can technically be done, there are no limits. If CBU3 decided to, they could of course add Thief and Ranger and Fighter and Black Belt to the game; there are hundreds of ways they could go about this. If you want to talk about what's possible, then anything you say, no matter how unlikely, is fair game.

My answer was not based on what is possible, but rather what is probable. Reviewing the most prominent job-based Final Fantasy games — FF3, FF5, FF Tactics, and FF11 — each of them have either Archer or Ranger, but never both. Presumably, much like Rogue and Thief, this is because one of the following is true:

• despite the variation in class name in different games, these are overall seen as being the same class, and the difference is simply an issue of nomenclature
• the classes are different, but not different enough to ever warrant having both in the same game

And indeed, if we look at Archer/Bard, we can see that it already has the ability most frequently associated with Rangers: Barrage. I read this as an indication that the developers are treating Ranger and Archer/Bard as the same class in FF14.

If you want to hold out hope, that is your choice. But personally, I find hope that is never fulfilled to be draining and painful, which is why I wouldn't recommend it in this case.

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I like your breakdown and reply, ty! I agree here. I guess I just need to continue hoping Ranger comes to the game. I've been playing since ARR launch on PS3 so it's not like I haven't been here the whole time. I suppose I can go play WoW to achieve Bow class fantasy but.. I just wish it was in this game and not there because this game decided to do Bowharps.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Yeah, it's frustrating. If only we could go back in time, and tell the dev team to have archer upgrade to ranger, and make bard a different job that uses a harp. But we are stuck with the current circumstances of having a job that uses a bow, but is called bard. The bard problem was also compounded with the introduction of dancer. Dancer absolutely stole the spotlight of support dps, and cannot give it up because that would go against its identity -- especially with how dance partner works as well. So BRD is now in a weird spot where making it a even more of a support dps would compete too much with dancer, and go against its archer roots. And focusing too much on archery would mean failing its namesake as a bard.

So I think BRD needs a new identity, one that can allow it to deliver both satisfying archery gameplay, and satisfying musical gameplay. My suggestion is to make BRD a rock star. One could feel like a rock star when pulling off trick shots as an archer. And songs should feel viscerally impactful for both the BRD, and their party like each fight rock concert. How this vision can be translated mechanically can be up for discussion.

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I think this 100%. The identity is all messed up. We need a separation of support and physical ranged DPS. Bard is both but takes away from it's identity by using a bowharp. Something not seen in any other game lol. While unique, I feel, not satisfying.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

What you're saying doesn't track, so I'm guessing you may not be aware of the history of this class. Initially, Arcanist only became Summoner. Later on, Scholar was added. So this example only works as a counter-argument to my point if you think that Scholar is a more robust version of Arcanist...which I'm guessing you surely don't think, since Scholar is an entirely different type of job with an entirely different kit and job focus (Arcanist being DPS, and Scholar being a healer).
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Citation please.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

What you're saying doesn't track, so I'm guessing you may not be aware of the history of this class. Initially, Arcanist only became Summoner. Later on, Scholar was added. So this example only works as a counter-argument to my point if you think that Scholar is a more robust version of Arcanist...which I'm guessing you surely don't think, since Scholar is an entirely different type of job with an entirely different kit and job focus (Arcanist being DPS, and Scholar being a healer).

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This is entirely incorrect. Arcanist was a job I'm the game's files for 1.0, but Arcanist, Summoner, and Scholar were all offically added into the game with 2.0 (ARR). There has never been at point that arcanist was usable that Scholar did not exist. Back then, the entirety of Arcanist's kit was available to Scholar, and that was the issue with the job. It learned Adloquiem at lv30, Succor at 35, Leeches at 40, Sacred Soil at 45, and Lustrate at 50. Every other spell and ability it had was shared with Arcanist and Summoner. Theyve done everything in their power to separate Scholar from the other two, besides actually breaking its ties to Arcanist.

Ranger as a heavy-hitting, crossbow-wielding physranged job would be a thing I'd absolutely be into. Makes me think of Crossbowman from oldschool Maplestory. But then in would come CBU3... At this point in the game, I feel like this concept for a job might be a little too... normal, for them to consider...? Like it's not a crazy or wild enough of a concept for a job for them to bother, but then again, Viper seems a bit more down-to-earth when you put it next to Reaper and Sage, so who knows. I hope I'm wrong.

Ultimately, I feel like CBU3 just wouldn't be able to stop themselves from finding some way to give it """"support""""" tools, kneecapping it into some wonky state, saying: "Guys, we PROMISE this is the way we meant to design it. *smile*", and then forgetting it exists completely.

I want it, but I don't trust the devs... but I do still want it, though.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

The likely answer is that it's not. In the same way that I wouldn't expect Thief to come to FF14 because Rogue is already a class, I don't expect Ranger to come to FF14 because Archer is already a class. Both are classes that could have been their own thing all the way to level cap, but they got absorbed into a different class and thus never got to reach that potential.

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It seems like Viper is going to be exactly the rogue option without Ninja's aesthetic baggage though, just like Ranger or whatever would be for Bard.

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Originally Posted by Mayhemmer

Ranger as a heavy-hitting, crossbow-wielding physranged job would be a thing I'd absolutely be into. Makes me think of Crossbowman from oldschool Maplestory. But then in would come CBU3... At this point in the game, I feel like this concept for a job might be a little too... normal, for them to consider...? Like it's not a crazy or wild enough of a concept for a job for them to bother, but then again, Viper seems a bit more down-to-earth when you put it next to Reaper and Sage, so who knows. I hope I'm wrong.

Ultimately, I feel like CBU3 just wouldn't be able to stop themselves from finding some way to give it """"support""""" tools, kneecapping it into some wonky state, saying: "Guys, we PROMISE this is the way we meant to design it. *smile*", and then forgetting it exists completely.

I want it, but I don't trust the devs... but I do still want it, though.

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This is essentially how it feels at this point. Ranger isn't "exciting" enough to announce. I know for one I would be excited. I keep my Bard leveled up to max but I don't actually play it in hopes that an actual Bow class comes to the game and I can dump its gear onto that job. My fiance and I both play WoW as well. She mains a Hunter and Bard just doesn't reach that class fantasy for her either. Bard's Bowharp makes us sad lol.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

The likely answer is that it's not. In the same way that I wouldn't expect Thief to come to FF14 because Rogue is already a class, I don't expect Ranger to come to FF14 because Archer is already a class. Both are classes that could have been their own thing all the way to level cap, but they got absorbed into a different class and thus never got to reach that potential.

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I pretty much agreed with this idea...
...until EU Fanfest where Viper was introduced.

Now I'm not so sure.

I highly doubt there will be a "can use bows and guns" business. It will have one weapon type, just like everyone else does, with the RARE gag/exception (like PLD having a pickaxe from the Dwarves and WAR having a couple hammers here and there).

Thing is, I'm not sure what type of weapon it would have. Shortbow with some extra gameplay based around traps and stuff? Maybe, but ARC/BRD has a lot of those already. Longbow? Same story.

It could have a crossbow, and it WOULD be nice to see a crossbow Job added to the game, probably with a more medieval themed expansion setting, but is that what people think of when they think of Rangers? Crossbows? Maybe the little hand held, light and short range ones, but not a medium or heavy one. Maybe it could use a shortbow and shortsword and to the RDM thing, going back and forth between the two, or some kind of combination thing.

The thing is, it needs to be distinct ENOUGH from existing Jobs. NIN gets a lot of crazy long daggers, but they're still very obviously supposed to be daggers/knives/short swords as opposed to PLD's long swords/bastard swords, or DRK's claymores. So NIN's daggers are contrasted well enough by Viper, which has both long swords (the base form of them is a long sword, not a short sword) and they further combine into a dual-bladed sword/staff/thief sword/swallow. Collectively, those make it unique from both NIN (daggers/short swords), PLD (long sword/bastard sword + shield), and RDM (rapier/tuck + focus).

So it's less that Ranger is impossible and more (1) what weapon(s) would it use to stay distinct from other Jobs and (2) what playstyle/mechanics/types of abilities would fit the aesthetic.

I do suspect if they added it, it would be less Archer and more Melee/close combat with ranged option/phase, though. But at this point...they could do just about anything and it wouldn't surprise me, considering what they've done lately and the way they've pulled some Jobs out of nowhere.

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EDIT:

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

What you're saying doesn't track, so I'm guessing you may not be aware of the history of this class. Initially, Arcanist only became Summoner. Later on, Scholar was added.

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Wait, this I have to ask...was this EVER true?

In 1.X, Arcanist was one of the classes that didn't make it into the game. So neither did Summoner (or Scholar) when they later added Jobs in patch...1.18? 1.20? Whenever that was.

In 2.0, ARR, they remade the game and carried over all but one of the original game's classes (the one dropped was the shield wielder - and yes, that...that was a thing) and they added Arcanist, but with books instead of the arcane staff...thing...they were originally planned to have (look at Urianger's 1.X model sometime to see it, since that's what he was equipped with; early on, before the game was headed for doom, they had planned out things they wanted to add and some dataminers found stuff, but Arcanist was semi-complete and had a description sounding kinda like WoW Shaman in that they could set down these things like Shaman Totems that they'd use for different effects and abilities).

...but that was all scrapped and, for whatever reason, they didn't think only having 7 classes/Jobs would work, not to mention only WHM as a healer (THM had some weird abilities in 1.X that could do some healing, but when Jobs were added, it was just 2x WHM per party of 8). So they added two more Jobs. But for whatever reason (dev time? Who knows), they didn't add two more classes, only the one, Arcanist, so SMN and SCH both had to come from it.

I'm pretty sure SCH was added in 2.0, the same time SMN and ACN were. While ROG/NIN were planned (apparently) to be added and launched with 2.0, they didn't make it, which is why it was released with 2.4 instead, the only time a Job has ever been added min-expansion, possibly because they were mostly done with it but couldn't quite get it in in 2.0 itself.

So I'm PRETTY sure SCH was added at the same time as ACN and SMN.

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I do agree that the devs complained this was a problem (though personally, I love that they share a base class and wish other Jobs did more often; for years I've wished WHM and GEO both split from CNJ so I'd get another two-for-one deal :D), but devs think it's harder to balance since if you buff, say, Ruin for SMN (if it's doing too little damage), it also buffs SCH (so it's now doing too much), so they had to be more careful with what abilities they tweaked for balance issues. Honestly, I don't think that was as big a problem as it was made out to be, but...it is what it is, so they'll probably never do it again.

I personally THINK this was more an ARR/HW thing and less an issue now that so many things in Jobs these days are Job actions (not class that would be shared - classes get no abilities passed level 50) and Traits. So it wouldn't be THAT hard to split a class into two Jobs and have all the stuff you balance around being in the Job-exclusive abilities and traits. For example, Gladiator could easily split into a Melee DPS on one side and sword and board Tank on the other, with the defensive CDs and holy spells all being PLD Job abilities/Traits while the "Bloodsander" or whatever had DPS actions instead, and then tuning would be based on those things.

So I honestly think that's a relic of the ARR/HW era...but it caused the devs ENOUGH problems they won't likely ever do it again.

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Again, look to Viper. If they add Ranger, it'd be like that - it's own Job that starts at <expansion_levelcap - 20> and do it that way as an entirely new thing, I'd think.

If Ranger was introduced with a crossbow and they could glam Bows over it, that would be a win in my book. We just need a straight physrange class that doesn't play as a support Job. Idk where they got Bowharps from but that's really my biggest issue. But, I do understand this is my aesthic issue.

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Originally Posted by Kimmay

This is entirely incorrect. Arcanist was a job I'm the game's files for 1.0, but Arcanist, Summoner, and Scholar were all offically added into the game with 2.0 (ARR). There has never been at point that arcanist was usable that Scholar did not exist. Back then, the entirety of Arcanist's kit was available to Scholar, and that was the issue with the job. It learned Adloquiem at lv30, Succor at 35, Leeches at 40, Sacred Soil at 45, and Lustrate at 50. Every other spell and ability it had was shared with Arcanist and Summoner. Theyve done everything in their power to separate Scholar from the other two, besides actually breaking its ties to Arcanist.

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Was playing at the launch of ARR, can validate

Also to add a little more to this, a lot of why they've gone to such lengths to separate the kits of the two jobs was for job balance. If they needed to buff scholar, then that would buff summoner too. If they needed to nerf one, that would nerf the other as well. This caused a lot of issues in Heavensward as well as Stormblood where often one of the two was over turned in an effort to make the other balanced in its role.

And, it doesn't see in the design philosophy of the team at this point, even if they hadn't said absolutely never again for branching jobs, for them to give us a job that starts at level cap. (or only 10 levels under if it launches with an expansion) Every time they've added a new job it starts at least 20 levels below the current level cap, and even more when you look at ninja and the jobs added for Heavensward.