Why I didn't do Extremes or Savages and now I do.

Hi everyone,

So this is I think my very first, maybe second post on the forums in like 10 years playing, so forgive me for being some rando sharing his opinion, but I thought it was kind of important to share because I was talking to someone and they were telling me how utterly terrified they were to do Extremes and savages. It was all the usual reasons you might hear, and I used to feel like that too, but no one should ever be scared or intimidated out of doing content, so I thought I should share my my own story and Perspective on the issue.

As I said, I've been playing roughly 10 years myself and I used to feel similar. The reason I avoided things like EX's & Savage isn't because I think its beyond me or whatever. I KNOW I can. My quote unquote Problem is 2 fold.

1) I am disabled right? Because of that I have issues with my hands that make me slower. I will eventually get it, but there are many many...many deaths.

The second, and this one is entirely me being stubborn and pig-headed I admit... I don't and won't watch guides. I like Green runs. I want to learn it myself the same way the day 1's did, by doing it, by smashing my head against that preverbal wall and dying 1001 times and getting angry and screaming at the game like an old school gamer; but I know that I am in the minority in this and as a result and the reason I avoided them forever - a lot of players get angry and gripe and yell at me thinking that I'm trolling or a bot, and that can be very disheartening.

That's why I LOVE PF! I can put exactly what I'm doing in there and what I need/expect. I can tell ppl its a green/no guide run, I can tell them I'm disabled if I want to. I cant tell them I'm gonna run for 90 min, or 3 hrs or whatever. No its not perfect and has its own hurdles and issues, but I find it works for me and my needs.

You are certainly free to disagree with me, but as I said, no one should be scared or intimidated out of doing content that they might want to do, and I hope that if you are reading this and are one of those that this helps and/or encourages you

It's kinda why PF was introduced, a convenient means to advertise your intentions. I'm in agreement that it's the way to go for blind runs since I'm in the same boat when it comes to the current generation's "bro just watch a guide lol" mentality. I tend to only look at a raidplan when a mechanic is genuinely confusing to me, but most of my experience in Savage which comes from this expansion was finding most mechanics to be sight-readable in one form or another. It taught me to keep a closer watch on my party list, debuffs and the boss' cast bar & hp % throughout a fight. I will NEVER spoil a 4th fight phase transition for myself though, seeing them blind is some of the most fun I've had in my time playing XIV.

I can sympathize with feeling inadequate due to circumstances you can't help. I've got my fair share, but the worst part of raiding for me was seeing friends just give up because they felt inadequate on the last fights of the first two tiers. To me, them getting that far proves that we all had what it took to see it through but we just never did. This tier I've been alone which is just discouraging and by the time I got to 11, there were no PFs for it for several weeks so I've kinda just been doing other stuff like title grinds and Mentor roulette to kill time.

My main shortcoming there is that I just don't have as much fun when I'm raiding alone vs being with 7 like-minded friends who, as you put it, would spend up to 3 months (P3S my beloved) smashing their heads with me against those walls where breaking through after so much effort felt more vindicating than most challenges I've toppled in other games.

There are usually plenty of "blind run" parties in PF, particularly for extremes. Usually if you don't watch a guide, someone just explains what to do for each cast that is causing wipes or shows what to do using markers as an example.

In rare cases, it can be too difficult to explain an extreme trial mechanic without at least linking a website strategy planner or other diagram. Tsukuyomi is an example.

Even people on day 1 often have to playback a video of what they did in slow motion to figure out what's going on. Sometimes you just can't tell how a mechanic is happening while actually playing and need to play it in slow motion and pause it at various points. And sometimes they need to review multiple pulls to come up with a diagram of how it works so they can articulate it themselves and create a plan for it on a strategy website. All of this is especially true in Savage.

Personally, I try to do things blind first, then look for strategies or guides if I really need help. Abyssos is a great example, because the first raid that I did blind (P5S) had a mechanic called Devour. Once I got to that mechanic, I was just endlessly going into the mechanic having no clue what was going on and getting devoured. The only option was to really break it down and figure out a consistent way to avoid that whole thing so I spent a very long time reviewing videos, strats and guides for it until I was extremely confident I could do it consistently.

If I had just not researched the mechanic, I would have kept dying to devour all week and learned nothing. It just wasn't very easy to see what was going on while actually playing.

One thing I can say, is that if you set up a blind party for savage on the first hour of savage release, everyone in that party is looking at content creators live streams anyway and ignores that you put "blind" in the description, but as the party leader you can absolutely try to be blind yourself still.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chip793

It's kinda why PF was introduced, a convenient means to advertise your intentions. I'm in agreement that it's the way to go for blind runs since I'm in the same boat when it comes to the current generation's "bro just watch a guide lol" mentality. I tend to only look at a raidplan when a mechanic is genuinely confusing to me, but most of my experience in Savage which comes from this expansion was finding most mechanics to be sight-readable in one form or another. It taught me to keep a closer watch on my party list, debuffs and the boss' cast bar & hp % throughout a fight. I will NEVER spoil a 4th fight phase transition for myself though, seeing them blind is some of the most fun I've had in my time playing XIV.

I can sympathize with feeling inadequate due to circumstances you can't help. I've got my fair share, but the worst part of raiding for me was seeing friends just give up because they felt inadequate on the last fights of the first two tiers. To me, them getting that far proves that we all had what it took to see it through but we just never did. This tier I've been alone which is just discouraging and by the time I got to 11, there were no PFs for it for several weeks so I've kinda just been doing other stuff like title grinds and Mentor roulette to kill time.

My main shortcoming there is that I just don't have as much fun when I'm raiding alone vs being with 7 like-minded friends who, as you put it, would spend up to 3 months (P3S my beloved) smashing their heads with me against those walls where breaking through after so much effort felt more vindicating than most challenges I've toppled in other games.

---

Oh my god, I know, Right? I mean I absolutely do not fault people that watch guides, of course, but I feel like people have become too dependent on them. I won't say I never use them, but much like you only as a very last resort and usually for secrets. Hidden paths, puzzles ect. not fights; and I know! There's a huge sense of accomplishment and pride over finally beating a fight after all the effort and time you put in and knowing you and your team did it, not some video.

And I completely agree with you. MMO's are about the community, especially XIV and its depressing to see friends slowly disappear and it's worse when you find out that it's because they were scared away by the try-hards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

There are usually plenty of "blind run" parties in PF, particularly for extremes. Usually if you don't watch a guide, someone just explains what to do for each cast that is causing wipes or shows what to do using markers as an example.

In rare cases, it can be too difficult to explain an extreme trial mechanic without at least linking a website strategy planner or other diagram. Tsukuyomi is an example.

Even people on day 1 often have to playback a video of what they did in slow motion to figure out what's going on. Sometimes you just can't tell how a mechanic is happening while actually playing and need to play it in slow motion and pause it at various points. And sometimes they need to review multiple pulls to come up with a diagram of how it works so they can articulate it themselves and create a plan for it on a strategy website. All of this is especially true in Savage.

Personally, I try to do things blind first, then look for strategies or guides if I really need help. Abyssos is a great example, because the first raid that I did blind (P5S) had a mechanic called Devour. Once I got to that mechanic, I was just endlessly going into the mechanic having no clue what was going on and getting devoured. The only option was to really break it down and figure out a consistent way to avoid that whole thing so I spent a very long time reviewing videos, strats and guides for it until I was extremely confident I could do it consistently.

If I had just not researched the mechanic, I would have kept dying to devour all week and learned nothing. It just wasn't very easy to see what was going on while actually playing.

One thing I can say, is that if you set up a blind party for savage on the first hour of savage release, everyone in that party is looking at content creators live streams anyway and ignores that you put "blind" in the description, but as the party leader you can absolutely try to be blind yourself still.

---

I get that. You can't control what other people do at their desk. If they are watching streamers that's on them, and as I said previously I don't fault people who do, but other people who have the expectation that you Should and then proceed to berate you and make you feel bad and push you away isn't even right Also, and we may disagree here, but Talking about the raid mechanics in your group and going back and rewatching footage of you raid groups fight is not the same thing as going to some youtube or streamer to show you how to do it

I gave it a try. My blacklist really grew in size when l tried to raid savage in pf, then l decided it is best to quit, lol

I've always been put off high end stuff due to so much "just watch a guide" I used encounter while doing msq. When I had watched it, but more often than not I still have to fail a mechanic at least once. Multiple times if it's a difficult one. One of my favorite activities is helping to get primal mounts with a few of my friends who really can't do the mechanics at all, unsynced.

On one hand, I enjoy the moment everything finally comes together for me and the fight suddenly resolves from chaos to what feels like slow motion. Then I think, hmmm, maybe I could do this stuff for real with a full group. On the other hand, I know I'm at best on the low end of average skill-wise and would almost definitely be the last person to "get" things. That makes me go, hmmm, I probably shouldn't try these fights for real because I'll be the one holding the group back. Sometimes I've thought about using party finder to try a learning group, and take away some of the pressure of being last at most things. I'm not sure, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Landon_Targaryen

people who have the expectation that you Should and then proceed to berate you and make you feel bad and push you away isn't even right

---

It's not right unless the party description said "watch a guide" or "know what to do".

Quote:

---

Also, and we may disagree here, but Talking about the raid mechanics in your group and going back and rewatching footage of you raid groups fight is not the same thing as going to some youtube or streamer to show you how to do it

---

I do prefer to just rewatch footage myself to work it out, my point was just that this is how the guide-makers figure it out anyways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SugarPuff

I've always been put off high end stuff due to so much "just watch a guide" I used encounter while doing msq.

---

Guides always created as much anxiety as they took away, with dungeons. They allow you to know what to do for mechanics, but they also spend 1 minute explaining a mechanic that lasts 1 second and isn't even that punishing. When you actually do the fight, the anxiety they created spending 1 minute explaining the mechanic wasn't worth it when it was over in 1 second.

Dungeons used to require you to read status effects and wipe a few times to figure them out blind, but now they are designed to be intuitive so that you can figure them out just by looking at the indicators or the environment. There really is no reason to look at guides for them anymore and you didn't really even need to in the past if you were willing to risk dying to a mechanic occasionally. Duty Support also teaches you the mechanics if you do it with that for the first playthrough.

Quote:

---

Sometimes I've thought about using party finder to try a learning group, and take away some of the pressure of being last at most things. I'm not sure, though.

---

I mean everyone else in the Practice party is in the same boat anyway, so there's no harm in it, especially if it's a fresh prog party because then the prog point is 0%, so you are not holding anyone back if you only make it to 2%. They they say "up to third phase" and you can't do first phase then it would be holding people back, but you can avoid that simply by reading and knowing how far you can get into the fight without messing up much.

I would be all over this kind of content back in the old days when all my friends had time for MMOs and we were all playing WoW together. We weren't great, our gear sucked, but we all knew each other and organized well over voice comms. We could set a date to play, and we knew when we could be available.

I don't really want to dedicate multiple hours of my night, on the fly, with random strangers, trying to talk with them through text. And then maybe not even clearing anything, and starting all over from scratch the next time I even think of trying again. And that's if the Party Finder group actually fills. How long does it take to get enough people who are interested? And what happens if someone gets fed up and leaves? Do you have to abandon and recreate the PF entry again?

I started getting into Extremes and Savage and Unreal with Golbez, too, and I don't really mind watching guides too much. Guides can give you the what but they can't help you with learning the positioning or the muscle memory or how you may need to adjust your rotation for a fight's unique mechanics. So there's still plenty of discovery even if you knew something like "stack with someone else on this part".

Whilst I have dabbled in Ex content, I don't tend to so much.

In my case, I've watched guides. Repeatedly. Sadly, I've found that I can neither remember the guide very well (if at all) nor perform in the manner the player(s) in the guide did. Even when I get something right my reaction time is often slow enough that I still get hit.

I don't tend to think about doing them so much anymore as a result. Not just because of my poor performance in such content, but also because the majority of PF listings say "watch a guide", "know the fight" or simply "Hector". And one first-hand experience of someone in an instance saying "didn't watch a guide?"

No point in someone like me queueing for those.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

I would be all over this kind of content back in the old days when all my friends had time for MMOs and we were all playing WoW together. We weren't great, our gear sucked, but we all knew each other and organized well over voice comms. We could set a date to play, and we knew when we could be available.

I don't really want to dedicate multiple hours of my night, on the fly, with random strangers, trying to talk with them through text. And then maybe not even clearing anything, and starting all over from scratch the next time I even think of trying again. And that's if the Party Finder group actually fills. How long does it take to get enough people who are interested? And what happens if someone gets fed up and leaves? Do you have to abandon and recreate the PF entry again?

---

This 100%.

I got all my clears from Pandæmonium Savage 1-4 (maybe 5 as well?) through Party Finder, before I put FFXIV to the side due to real life.
Halfway through my progress I joined a Static. But at the end of each week, after our last scheduled run I jumped into PF again to grind some more and that's how each my clear post- joining a static were still through the PF.
so it's completely doable, just need to have the patience of a saint (and more) and a lot of time.

I've never done Savage before Pandæmonium, never really cared for it.
But this time I was bored and with little to nothing to do I thought that I'd challenge myself with Savage, see how far I could go.
I didn't even expect to clear the first one, and each one after.
And even though it was tough and sometimes killing me inside, I had a lot of fun in the end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

In my case, I've watched guides. Repeatedly. Sadly, I've found that I can neither remember the guide very well (if at all)

---

You're not supposed to remember the guide. Who would remember a whole guide just like that? Everyone says the same thing as you, so I suggest watching and then forgetting the guide.

When you actually do the content, a mechanic will come up that you don't understand. Your brain will try to figure out how to handle it. One of the ways it tries to figure it out is to draw upon previous memories that could relate to it. The most recent memory relating to it is what was shown in the guide and you will probably remember 1 or 2 words the content creator said and suddenly, it can click.

If you didn't remember anything from the guide while doing the content, you can re-watch the guide after doing the content, now that you've seen the mechanics for yourself and it'll all make a lot more sense.

Another option is to take note of each mechanic that you think won't be obvious in the moment and is relevant to the class/job you use and write it down in a notepad.

You can also make /echo macros to remind you of things. You can press these echo macros in the game to remember something before a certain mechanic. You could have an echo macro to list important phase1 mechanics, important phase2 mechanics and so on and put these macros on a hotbar.

(I don't normally do all this, but I used to when I was new to the content in Heavensward and it was very effective)

Quote:

---

nor perform in the manner the player(s) in the guide did.

---

What can help is to watch a clear PoV video of your class/job on youtube (for example, Extreme Name clear SMN PoV). These show mechanics happening in real time and how someone with your class/job handles the situations, which can help with a lot of things a guide can't.

Quote:

---

Even when I get something right my reaction time is often slow enough that I still get hit.

---

You usually have at least 3 seconds between each mechanic. What helps with reaction time a lot on keyboard/mouse is using Legacy controls, so that pressing the backwards button instantly turns you around and runs backwards instead of a slow walk backwards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

I would be all over this kind of content back in the old days when all my friends had time for MMOs and we were all playing WoW together. We weren't great, our gear sucked, but we all knew each other and organized well over voice comms. We could set a date to play, and we knew when we could be available.

I don't really want to dedicate multiple hours of my night, on the fly, with random strangers, trying to talk with them through text. And then maybe not even clearing anything, and starting all over from scratch the next time I even think of trying again. And that's if the Party Finder group actually fills. How long does it take to get enough people who are interested? And what happens if someone gets fed up and leaves? Do you have to abandon and recreate the PF entry again?

---

Yeah I think at some point a dev might look at an audience that isn't taking part, and at least those that align with this (myself included) the answer is basically "never" (anymore.. :P). It's not interesting to spend hours herding cats at the chance of winning something, but mostly just being stressed lol. If you get a good group of regulars you can make great progress, but then you're beholden to that schedule which is a different and other non-negotiable issue.

The way the content /is/ would never interest me in anything beyond if it was like a guild mate who wanted to do it simply to complete it 'because of me' (I'm not counting unsycnc / 'epic echo' type engagement, I'd do that).


That said there is nothing wrong with people who do like it :), also glad someone found a system that helps them get the content done exactly in the way that they like.