Don't change Black Mage too much

It's really cool as is I think

I wouldn't worry about big changes to BLM considering it's Yoshi-P's main job.

It'll catch a stray bullet again.

Lets see...Transpose clearly needs to be changed to a 30s CD so it lines up with the 2m meta.

make leylines CD 30 seconds lets do it, 100% always in your leylines

If Blm changes too much I'll be sad, I doubt it but you never know x). BLM is genuinely one of the best designed jobs in the game though.

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Originally Posted by Mecia

It'll catch a stray bullet again.

Lets see...Transpose clearly needs to be changed to a 30s CD so it lines up with the 2m meta.

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How do I delete someone else's post? D:

Please let's not touch Transpose ever, thank you? D:

Certainly, it's one of the jobs that has the least chance of changing,
since Heavensward, it hasn't fundamentally changed except for gaining more utility and undergoing some significant quality of life improvements.

It's certainly one of the most robust jobs in the game, and it won't change.

High Fire III and IV, High Blizzard III and IV. One more polyglot charge and faster charge generation upon casting High Blizzard III. Deep Freeze, Deep Despair, Deep Flare.

Done.

AoE Paradox spender, Ice Finisher.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

AoE Paradox spender, Ice Finisher.

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Bruh just make Paradox AOE, no need to just make "Paradox, but different" with normal Paradox. Xenoglossy vs Foul is about as original...

I'd like some button consolidation and a thing where Umbral Soul "freezes" your UI timer so you don't have to spam it out of combat.

I'd just like to see F4 and B4, Ley Lines and Between the Lines, etc., share a button by default. I also wouldn't mind Polyglot progress freezing or reverting upon losing AF/UI, instead of cancelling all progress.
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...That being said... I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they just entirely did away with the F4 and B4 requiring AF/UI, made Ice spells free outright, and made the effect of AF/UI stacks a bit more intuitive.

At present, Astral Fire stacks increase Fire damage dealt by 40|60|80%, increase Fire MP costs by 100|100|100%, decrease Ice damage dealt by 10|20|30%, decrease Ice spell cast times by 0|0|50% and decrease Ice spell MP costs by 100|100|100%.

Umbral Ice stacks decrease Ice MP costs by 25|50|100%, decrease Fire spell MP costs by 100|100|100%, decrease Fire spell cast times by 0|0|50%, and decrease Fire damage by 10|20|30%, while providing 3200|4700|6200 MP per tick.

As such, I wouldn't be shocked if they removed the Ice MP costs entirely, removed the 10|20|30% penalties incurred from using the opposite element, and had Astral Fire increase Fire damage dealt by 20|40|60% and reduce Ice cast times by 20|40|60%, while having Umbral Ice generate 20|40|60% of max MP per tick and reduce Fire cast times and MP costs by 20|40|60%. Possibly also have AF increase Fire MP costs by 20|40|60%, instead of 100|100|100%, while increasing base costs by 25% to create the same resultant values, and have UI decrease Fire MP costs by 20|40|60%. With that, everything would use 20% per stack -- nice and simple.

(Yes, that'd still keep the MP values fairly pretty. You'd spend still have the same visible values and number of casts as before; you'd just have AF and UI work quite a bit more intuitively. You'd just have to slightly decrease the MP cost of Fire III or Fire I / Paradox to compensate for the 40% remaining MP on the first Fire cast, is all.)

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Certainly, it's one of the jobs that has the least chance of changing,

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Dont say that so loud. They could make his spells to combo based (would probally like a 1-2-3 fire combo, instant of allways spaming fire4/1). Or, remove the timer and souls and make it, that he has to shot fire, than ice, than fire and so on.^^

Except of changing the whole concept of the class (similary to summoner) can i not see much, how to change him (aside of the joke idea i mentioned or changing to a combo system).
What i can see coming is the removing of leylines. That make 2 Buttons free. And the stand stil princip is, what make the class harder and at the same time, not much compatible with a lot of Boss mechanics.
So, removing the lines is one option i would probally to at some point (even, when i would miss the line animation^^). The question would than only be, what to give him to the hw part.

What i want for him is the evolving of flare to a stronger form (Zeta flare from Donald, the strongest flare in the verse^^). And the obtaining of the ultima spell (probally as evolving of despair, the ST version of flare). And for the visual satification, some changes of the animations and attack area. Instant of having allways bombes, would i like a fire wall spell (linear aoe attack, maybe in front of you, like drg thrust aoe or reapers cristal aoe). Or a wave of fire. Like whe see it in this on ruin dungeon from Boznia. Or a fire beam. Like some enemy's are using.
The only downside of this variation would be, that it could maybe attack to many enemy, when placed in the right way. Or its in contrast to the distance, that the blm has usually to the enemy (reason, why ice to as close up aoe attack didnt worked).

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Bruh just make Paradox AOE, no need to just make "Paradox, but different" with normal Paradox. Xenoglossy vs Foul is about as original...

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If you don't want black mage to change, then that's what you should be expecting.

Make AoE's still cast even if the main target dies. That's all I want for BLM.

BLM works really well (even though I think the Thundercloud proc got to a pointless stage), but let's face it... at some point the job will have to change due to the nature of the game. Unless players don't mind getting just upgraded spells (Fire1, 2, 3, etc) or traits.

BLM has a very strong chance of only improving if it does undergo any changes since it is the director's main when he plays.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

BLM has a very strong chance of only improving if it does undergo any changes since it is the director's main when he plays.

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you can't improve perfection!

I mean quite honestly I don't see how current BLM could be improved (maybe 90s leylines again? but that would have to come with bursts changing)

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

I wouldn't worry about big changes to BLM considering it's Yoshi-P's main job.

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Its one of the more difficult jobs, so if anything would change, it would be making things a bit easier. But as its difficulty is mostly cast time related, that is highly unlikely to truly happen. Except maybe having spell speed give a better effect here (potentialy also promoting the materia here again).

And that would also only be the case if bossfight design would demand that. To which i suspect they would just provide more mobility tools instead of reducing cast duration, and then have those unlocked in DT (which is fine to me as it can cause a decent enough shift in playstyles, without instantly changing the job entirely). As long as that new ability doesnt allow spamming and requires careful usage, it can do fine enough.

Or instead of a mobility tool, a statis ability, allowing them to dodge an aoe without having to move away (raid wides not being dodgable).

There are quite a lot of ways they can go without changing too much, yet still have a significant enough change as result. Most important though is that the base playstyle remains.

We just need consolidated f4/b4 and LL and BtL

As a special treat maybe insta AF paradox for a reliable weaving opportunity in AF [whilst also providing an easier to maintain timer for those less confident]
Something needs to be done about how inconsistent our mana ticks can be in UI but I don't want those changes to be disruptive to non-standard play. So no mana regen tied to how many spells you cast in UI or anything like that.

my unreasonable wants are stronger autoattacks and for a return of the HW Enochian timer but maybe not tied to accessing your F4 and B4 skills and instead just a dmg buff you have to juggle by keeping your rotation going. I also want all my utility back; manashift and apocatastasis back and even aggro management.

Not a BLM player, but I think it would be neat if BLM got like an Astral Lightning phase added to the Elemental Gauge. Like Lightning spells could be like the go-to for mobility, and do more damage than ice spells, but they consume MP at the same rate as fire spells. It would probably simplify the job a little, but it could provide a new foundation to build off of.

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Originally Posted by Ferrinus

I'd like some button consolidation and a thing where Umbral Soul "freezes" your UI timer so you don't have to spam it out of combat.

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This , this is the one change I want badly, hurts sooo much when the in fight CS or ziplines between stages in A raids takes 15+ seconds.

Changes I want: Ley lines + BTL merge. Make umbral soul turn into transpose when in AF(but keep transpose available as a separate button too for those who want to optimize). Make umbral soul a level 30 ability. Make umbral soul freeze AI at 15 seconds when you cap out 3 AI and 3 UH.

Most of these have already been said, but now that I've got to 90 on my BLM I really want them.

Flare needs a new animation, freeze needs a new animation, fire III needs a new animation. Everything else is visually great.

I guess if I had a bit of a wish-list for (very subtle / merely polish-oriented) changes...

• Gamewide Change: Casts are now fully snapshotted. If Astral Fire falls off during a F4 cast, it will still go off. If Verstone Ready falls off during a Verstone cast, it will still go off.
• Gamewide Change: Action Stacks have been added to the game. These act as a more user-friendly form of and seamless alternative to macros, allowing players to trickle down through different actions as those above fail to be applicable. For instance, a stack of Ley Lines, Between the Lines would fall to Between the Lines as soon as Ley Lines is placed on CD (since Ley Lines cannot be used but Between the Lines can be), and cycle back to Ley Lines as soon as Between the Lines, too, cannot be used.
  
  Polyglot progress now merely pauses while out of Astral Fire / Umbral Ice (instead of the BLM losing all progress towards Polyglot) but can no longer be progressed outside of combat. In exchange for the dungeon burst thereby lost, Manafont gets a second charge.
  
  Gameplay result: More uses of Convert in dungeons, but fewer free Flare/Xenoglossy casts born of Umbral Ice spam; Umbral Ice or Transpose spam no longer required.
  
  
• Astral Fire has been made a bit more intuitive in how it affects spell-casts. It now increases Fire damage by 50|75|100% while increasing Fire MP costs and decreasing Ice MP costs by the same. Now decreases Ice cast times by 25|37.5|50%. It no longer reduces the damage of Ice spells.
• Umbral Ice now reduces MP costs by 50|75|100% while restoring 25|37.5|50% MP per GCD's time and decreasing Fire casts times by 25|37.5|50%. It no longer decreases the damage of Fire spells. (The increased opportunity cost of not being in Astral Fire when casting them already covers the difference.)
  
  
• Instead of awkwardly needing to multiply BLM potencies per the multiplicative buffs of the Caster/Healer wide trait Maim and Mend II (+30% damage), Astral Fire (up to +80% Fire damage), and Enochian (+23% damage), Enochian has been replaced by Elemental Depths, which just upgrades spell potencies by roughly the same amounts.
  
  As such, to compare BLM potencies to other Casters or Healers, one need only double the potency of consecutive Fire casts. To get equivalent Melee/Tank potencies, though, they'd still have to also multiple by 1.3, of course. (For Ranged, with their awkward +20% modifiers, you'd have to multiple by 1.08333. I truly hope we just get rid of all of those traits soon so that Healer potency is Tank potency is Ranged potency is... just potency.)
  
• Among the above potency buffs in compensation for removing Enochian's 3rd layer of multiplicative damage buffs, Fire III becomes Fire V, Flare becomes Flare II, and Freeze becomes Freeze II. Fire V is now worth using for more than just mobility (no longer a faint DPS loss per AF cycle), tending to end one's Fire phase if no opportunity is granted to use it in any other way, giving a bit more offensive value to Sharpcast. Yes, they come with newer, cooler animations.
  
  
• New recommended Action Stacks have been added to Black Mage, including...

• [Instant] Paradox > [Firestarter] Fire III -> Paradox -> [Astral Fire III] Fire -> [No Astral Fire] Fire III
• Fire IV -> Blizzard IV
• Freeze -> Flare
• Ley Lines -> Between the Lines
• Umbral Heart -> Transpose

BLM is now too hard right compared to other casters? What do you guys think of the following:

1. Remove Astral Fire timer and Umbral Ice timer
2. Foul and Xenoglossy - Polygot still accumulates every 30 seconds while under the effect of Astral Fire or Umbral Ice.

Fire spells that currently grant astral fire will grant it permanently until an ice spell is cast. Same thing applies to ice spells. The entire gameplay will now be just MP and the rotation will be mostly unchanged. We will still use paradox once in between Fire IVs or anytime under astral fire due to its higher potency . We swap to ice to restore MP. There is no concern of losing AF and we carry on with our rotation after any downtime.

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Originally Posted by Ayden

BLM is now too hard right compared to other casters? What do you guys think of the following:

1. Remove Astral Fire timer and Umbral Ice timer
2. Foul and Xenoglossy - Polygot still accumulates every 30 seconds while under the effect of Astral Fire or Umbral Ice.

Fire spells that currently grant astral fire will grant it permanently until an ice spell is cast. Same thing applies to ice spells. The entire gameplay will now be just MP and the rotation will be mostly unchanged. We will still use paradox once in between Fire IVs or anytime under astral fire due to its higher potency . We swap to ice to restore MP. There is no concern of losing AF and we carry on with our rotation after any downtime.

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Big No. Astral Fire/Umbral Ice (with timer) is the core of nearly every job mechanic Black Mage has. If that gets removed to tremendously dumb down the job it'll be the next one that sits on the bench after leveling for me

No removal of timers!!

Something I think would be fun alongside common suggestions made here (paradox AoE, ice finisher spell) would be a lightning finisher spell, maybe Burst or some original spell name.

It'd be a "finisher" in the sense that it only does full (or perhaps any at all) damage to a target with a Thunder DoT on them, but it also consumes that DoT to no further effect (or to an effect that scales weakly with remaining duration but less so than the actual DoT would have dealt), so the optimal play pattern is to throw Burst when an enemy's Thunder is juuuust about to fall off. This would introduce another timer to juggle that's a little more under your control, and, depending on the math, give you something profitable to do with extra Thundercloud procs (which could maybe stack...?).

A simpler mechanic could just be a Burst spell that you only become able to cast when you get a "natural" Thundercloud proc while you've already got one stored up.

what if paradox have a chance to upgrade scathe to a more powerful spell without mp cost. ;P

give us 1 more polygot at capstone with a powerful 2polygot spender spell. the potency should not be twice the xeno, thus leaving the option for using it during the 15s burst window and normal xeno spend on out of burst window
but if dev decide the xeno button get auto upgrade to the 2polygot spender spell upon having two polygot already to save button space, then its fine to make its twice the potency of xeno.

heres another idea to save button space with the aforemention two upgrade spell:
paradox 100% upgrade scathe to this powerful spell, this powerful spell needs to be casted inorder for xeno to be upgraded to a 2polygot spender spell.


and since we at this. can we please increase these target base aoe radius? not just blm but all spell target base aoe.
monster gets too big of a hitbox and you needing to try locating the optimum small hitbox enmy within the crowd is a pain. also in the end, they probably die before your cast goes off and need to reselect and cast ago. although im not a gamepaf player but you do have to think about the gamepad players! its hard for then ti try find the optimum monster in the mids of instantcast aoes

back then i can understand keeping the radius small when melee need tp but they dont now. and majorly melee aoe is char base or aoe originate from char. thus they can run into the middle of the pack and aoe.

right now, caster dps on crowd on the mercy of the tank too. while melee dps dont need to worry.
monster all over the place? small hitbox enmy not in the middle of the crowd? :(

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Originally Posted by Ayden

BLM is now too hard right compared to other casters? What do you guys think of the following:

1. Remove Astral Fire timer and Umbral Ice timer
2. Foul and Xenoglossy - Polygot still accumulates every 30 seconds while under the effect of Astral Fire or Umbral Ice.

Fire spells that currently grant astral fire will grant it permanently until an ice spell is cast. Same thing applies to ice spells. The entire gameplay will now be just MP and the rotation will be mostly unchanged. We will still use paradox once in between Fire IVs or anytime under astral fire due to its higher potency . We swap to ice to restore MP. There is no concern of losing AF and we carry on with our rotation after any downtime.

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Some jobs should be harder then others, I'm glad BLM is one of the few jobs that keeps the high skill celling low skill floor, most people can pick up it and do pretty ok with it.
Just because something is hard doesn't mean it needs changes.

Mao is BLM. Mao findings BLM design really good but EW fight designs gettings increasingly harder and not funs for Mao as BLM. That is, until Aloaha. Fights in new variant dungeon much more funs for Mao. Mao has little bits more opportunity to find special spots to plant and get rotations off. Mao really enjoying being BLM agains!

There is a serious problem if players are afraid of job changes instead of being excited for them in a new expansion

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Originally Posted by Caseal

There is a serious problem if players are afraid of job changes instead of being excited for them in a new expansion

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As a lv16 lancer you really know about it

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Originally Posted by Caseal

There is a serious problem if players are afraid of job changes instead of being excited for them in a new expansion

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Changes will coming allways. That is clear. No class is the same, as like 2.0 and more. The blm isnt even the same yet, as he was in shadowbringer (he had some nice changes, like Enochian, who was a activ skill to press, for than using fire 4 and so one, it was a little pain to use and was sometimes forgotten).
But, the "fear" of big changes comes from the problem, that the class is than maybe not anymore like the main player liked him.
Whe had some nice changes (at last did i like the rework from CL monk to Beast chakra monk). Some ok changes (the change from paladin is somethinbg, that some people like, some dislike). And some bad/questionable changes (like summoner).
Changing the base concept of a class could create the problem, that the old players dont like the new version anymore. Or lose the ability to play the class (i have no idea anymore, how to use the summoner, after the rework). And some classes never recover from the big changes. Like the bard. Who had like 2-3 bigger changes and is yet something, that simply dont feel complet anymore (to less archer bard, to less support/bard part, he is make low dmgh and at the same time are his buffs not feeling so strong).

So, there are reasons, to wish no big changes for a class. And when whe think about it, that the officiel reason for changing dragoon is, that the devs reached a dead end and stated, that they dont know, how to evolve him futher (at last is it, what i heared), is it not to fare away, that the blm could be one of the next classes. Who could have a bigger rework.
Like people stated in this thread, did he feel mostly completted and feels like, to have little room for improvement.

Actually make Scathe a ten seconds cast time big damage spell or something

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Originally Posted by dsgawwewerfw

Actually make Scathe a ten seconds cast time big damage spell or something

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Mao thinkings is maybe not such a good idea. Mao needs Scathe for when hunts trains get so large that Mao only has time for one instant cast spell before A-Rank monster dies. Is good idea to has really huge long casting spell though. Just needs to be separate spell from Scathe. Mao suggests callings it "DRAGON SLAAAAAAVE". Also, if gonna has much damage, spell might need much setup to be allowed to access casting or else will make BLMs much OP.

How about a trait that amplifies ley lines so it will affect the spell speed of anyone in them.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

How about a trait that amplifies ley lines so it will affect the spell speed of anyone in them.

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Pandoras box of the most cursed 2min meta imaginable where nobody wants to do mechanics during 2mins so delaying 2mins needs to become the norm just to end up destroying half the jobs rotations anyways requiring all those jobs to know how to reset their loops.
Also BLM personal dps now needs to take a huge hit and you gotta pray people go into your circle while things are happening, but also now there is 20 puddles baited on top of the ley lines woops.

The solution is simple:

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

Buff Blackmage

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:^)

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Originally Posted by dsgawwewerfw

Actually make Scathe a ten seconds cast time big damage spell or something

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Questionable.
It has more or less the same function, like many meele's lvl 15 distance attack has.
A weak, fast to use skill for distance or for using in movement. So, that you can attack, when there is no time to cast.

It looks to have his use in low level content (similary to sleep, who has his use in solo content, before you have aoe attacks), but lose his purpose very fast in higher content.
A upgrade of the spell could be nice. But, whe have allready flare, despaire, foul and xeno-something (can not remember the whole name^^), who fill his role now. A upgrade to a casting spell didnt look logical. And, it has to be weaker, as foul and xeno, and all casting spells, because, otherwise had whe no reason to not spam the instance spell all the time. ANd like Mao say, did whe "need" a instance spell for the hunt trains, where the bosses are dead in less than 2 seconds.^^
Im not sure, but the only upgrade for scathe would probally be one, to increase its potency to 200 or 250. And i dont think, that even that would make it to a usefull tool (maybe, its a spell, that whe could truly lose, for making place for other spell).

You've got enough instants to keep running for fourty seconds straight without stopping your gcd already
It's only tight if you want to use instants for massive damage instead of movement