Zenos' death was not only pointless, it shoots Endwalker's central theme in the foot and makes the moral fall flat.
The entire theme and "moral" of Endwalker is that life, despite all its hardships, is still worth living, and even if despair is inevitable, that you should never give in to it, to always have hope and forge ahead to make your own path. This is the lesson that the WoL has learned over the course of the story, and it is the lesson that they teach to Meteion at the end.
Zenos ties into this theme in a really interesting way, because when we meet him again after Elpis, he basically states it word-for-word as his own mindset, that there is no inherent "point" in life and therefore everyone must find their own purpose, as he has. This very mindset is what makes him immune to despair. Of course, Alisaie then rightfully points out that while that may be true, his refusal to listen to anyone else is ultimately going to lead to him never getting what he wants, and dying alone.
And Zenos listens. And that's where it falls apart.
Zenos genuinely takes Alisaie's words to heart, and changes for the better. He approaches Krile in Old Sharlayan and (though we never see the conversation they had) they "strike a bargain," rather than him taking the Mothercrystal by force. He flies to the end of the universe to help the WoL against the Endsinger, saving the universe by their side. And then, after the WoL finishes telling Meteion about how beautiful hope is and how living is important, Zenos has a heart-to-heart to WoL wherein he speaks to them as an equal and even says they can refuse him if they wish (even though the player can't).
And then, after we JUST finished delivering the moral to the sad bird antagonist, telling her that we must never give up on life... Zenos dies, ultimately having realized his life was unfulfilled.
Some might say "but wait, he got what he wanted and died happy," but I would ask them to watch his final scene again. He says that the battle was what he wanted, but that the joy it brought was only fleeting, and not true fulfillment. He asks the WoL if they managed to find fulfillment in their own life, unlike him. In other translations this is even more obvious; in the German dub he even outright says "your life was so much better than mine." He starts to say something else... and then stops breathing. And WoL is whisked away by the teleporter.
So despite listening to Alisaie and changing for the better, Zenos' ultimate reward for his character growth is STILL to die alone at the end of the universe, coming to the realization that his life was empty, AFTER WE JUST GOT FINISHED TELLING METEION THAT LIFE IS WORTHWHILE. And the reason why I keep pointing out that his death happened after the conversation with Meteion is because the timing is what really throws the moral out of whack. By telling Meteion about hope and the necessity to not fall to despair, then killing Zenos minutes later and having him lament the emptiness of his own life despite him being the other person who helped save the universe, after having literally stated the central theme of the story is his own ideology, it's as if the narrative says "everyone needs to find their own purpose in life and forge ahead, to find hope even in their darkest hour, and that's what will make their life worth living... except for this guy, f*ck him."
It would be one thing if Zenos was meant to serve as a cautionary tale in the greater context of Endwalker on how forging true connections with others helps us carry on; for example, if he had been told way earlier in the expac that he needs to change, and he had refused, instead insisting on his own selfish desires above all else and then dying before Ultima Thule, his death would be a fitting warning, especially amidst scenes like the people of Thavnair helping each other and supporting one another, and the Scions sacrificing themselves one-by-one to form a path for the WoL in Ultima Thule. His death would tell us the importance of the relationships the WoL has forged, and where we might be without the friends we made along the way.
Instead, he changes to help us, yet mere minutes after we see Meteion off as she learns not to give in to despair and to love life, Zenos is punished, and for what? Why is only Zenos left out in the cold?
***
Anyway I have many MANY more thoughts about how poorly they've handled Zenos, but this is already too long. Admittedly this also worries me because the devs have said before that they were planning on having a Garlemald expansion pack between ShB and EW, with Anima as the final boss, but decided to skip right to EW. When that is taken into consideration with the timing of Zenos' return at the end of ShB to his role in EW, it becomes clear that Zenos was meant to have a bigger role in the nonexistent Garlemald expac, which is why they never answered any of the questions raised about him in the ShB patches, such as why he has dreams of the Final Days. There's so much about Zenos that remains unanswered, and to completely abandon him as a character and never resolve those plot hooks because YOU CHOSE to cut the expansion pack where he was going to be important...
I don't hate Endwalker, but I think it has some really high highs and some REALLY low lows, mostly due to wonky pacing.
A Character Death That Made Endwalker Worse [6.0 Spoilers]
Printable View
-
11-11-2023, 04:49 AMprimalmeridianA Character Death That Made Endwalker Worse [6.0 Spoilers]
-
11-11-2023, 05:12 AMKranel_San
Zenos being Zenos.
I used to dislike him, but nowadays? I miss my PvP partner. -
11-11-2023, 06:05 AMLilimoLimomo
Personally, I'm glad Zenos is gone. He was a terrible villain and a terrible foil. All he did was take up space that could have been occupied by a compelling villain.
-
11-11-2023, 06:40 AMRaraka
Zenos should have been left at Stormblood, or relegated to be the end boss of Bozja since its Garlean related content
I agree with the general sentiment of Op however, the death went against the narrative of Endwalker, and turning over a new leaf by being the "baddie friend" that shows up now and then would have been a better end than killing him off the way they did
While we are at it, at least one of the Scions should have died in Ultima thule to prevent the stakes from falling flat once they pull the "we revive them all!" card
Looking fowards for the change in writters on Dawntrail -
11-11-2023, 06:48 AMSannaR
One you can get around the character limit by editing your post. Two yes, our life was better than his. We are to assume the WoL even before the game starts had a warm, loving and joyful childhood. They then continue to be surrounded by people who love and care deeply for them. Meanwhile Zenos is allowed to or even made into a monster by Varis (there's not a whole lot of mentioning about his mother's involvement). He grew up in a family that from what we can tell was fairly cold emotionally. He also from his short story didn't find what other kids his age did for fun well fun. The only thing he found fun was fighting. When you focus on chasing the emotional high you got from fighting to the point where you are trying to also one up on that high it probably isn't going to net you many friends. I don't even think he cared about anyone else being hurt, used or dying if it meant it could lead him to the next worthwhile fight. Just look at how he treated those who served him.
-
11-11-2023, 07:40 AMLunaxia
FFXIV has a habit of killing off antagonists who more often than not are the way they are purely due to being isolated and/ or horribly traumatised. They frequently like to bleat about about how "you can overcome any adversity so long as you have friends!", but the darker underside of that is the unspoken implication that life just isn't worth living if you aren't lucky enough to find the right support network, and it winds up with the villains being more or less just a case of "well, sucks to be you lol." It's pretty awful, and why Endwalker's message fell especially flat for me. I don't think SE really thought it through, and I know quite a few people who had suffered with personal issues really plummeted for a spell after finishing the MSQ as a result, which it doesn't surprise me at all.
-
11-11-2023, 07:57 AMConnor
Bringing Zenos back in Endwalker for me was probably one of the worst parts. It felt like he had no actual reason to continue existing other than to just be annoying lol: The bit at during the finale of Endwalker….
When Zenos flies in as Shinryu having inexplicably and conveniently consumed the mothercrystal, to literally carry us to victory, and the ridiculous fight amongst the stars afterwards. I thought it was really bad tbh lol. The whole thing read and played out like a really badly written fanfic (except in the fanfic Zenos and [Player Character] would be smooching at the end)
God I really hope they don’t bring him back in Dawntrail. Nothing would surprise me now lol -
11-11-2023, 09:26 AMCleretic
Zenos stares a redemption arc in the face and says 'no thanks'. He takes the advice given by Alisaie, gives it a genuine honest try, makes the universe better for it... and then just realizes that's not really for him.
What Zenos wants out of life is to throw down and go down; if the way he dies is in glorious combat with the one person who can challenge him, then that's how he wants to go out. And he doesn't get that anywhere else; telling him to go live a good life just isn't really something he can find any joy or fulfillment in. He knows where his happy place is, and his happy place happens to end with a sword/fist/fireball/Card Game Laser Beam to the face. And he's okay with that--hell, that's debatably one of the highlights for him, given this isn't even the first time he died happy after losing a fight to us.
You forget that, while a core part of Endwalker is 'life is worth living', another core part is 'everything eventually ends, and we have to accept that'. Zenos accepted that, in the same way Hydaelyn accepted that, Emet accepted that, and the Twelve accepted that. So why is Zenos' death somehow different from that in your eyes? Is it because rather than being some ancient super-being, he's just a really jacked dude? -
11-11-2023, 11:59 AMLyth
I think that Zenos found the meaning and purpose that he was looking for all his life in that final battle. It is a complete story arc.
Where the dissatisfaction may arise is because Zenos has become significantly more interesting as a character over time. The Sephiroth expy that we were given back in Stormblood was completely uninteresting, but he grew in leaps and bounds when the writers decided to make him into his own character. The turning point is where he rebukes Elidibus for the Black Rose and challenges him in the body of imperial grunt A before chasing the craven Ascian out with his tail between his legs. Couple that with him clearly outmatching and then sparing Estinien and Gaius in a 2v1. The verbal sparring with Jullus and his involvement in Ultima Thule naturally carved out a fan niche for himself (it also helps that his voice acting is top notch). When a character like this is on the rise, killing them off can be unsatisfying, because it feels like there's a lot more story potential there.
But that comes with the territory of killing characters off. It's not just about creating 'tension'. You have to make a deliberate decision about whether you have any further stories to tell with them. I was personally hoping that they would do something fun with him at the Last Dregs, but I can see why they would want to wrap things up this way. They really do need to release his minion, however. -
11-11-2023, 12:19 PMCilia
Zenos isn't "left in the cold," as you say; he knew what he wanted out of life, got it, and died happy. He lived and died on his own terms, regardless of the opinions of others - which is part of what Endwalker was about. It's not just a "keep moving forward and everything will be OK" story, it's also about deciding right and wrong for yourself; Venat goes against Amaurotine civilization because she doesn't agree with its chosen course, Zenos rejects Garlean supremacy in favor of his own pursuit of combat high, and the PC rejects Meteion's nihilistic ideals in favor of existentialism.
Zenos dying when and where he does isn't a disservice to the character; it's exactly what he wants. He doesn't want to change, he wants to fight an opponent that can push him to and beyond his limits and finds no meaning or purpose in life besides. A lot like Armored Core VI's V.I Freud.
I do agree that Endwalker's pacing really drags down what could have been another outstanding story, but it's still a good story in my opinion. -
11-11-2023, 12:29 PMAbsimiliard
This usually comes to mind for me when Zenos is mentioned.
https://i.redd.it/0awg1y2q15a81.jpg
Memery aside, I feel they picked a good way to send him off. He reached a point where he was an actual character instead of just Costco Sephiroth, which people liked, but he was also not the kind of character you could really "tame." Most of the ways of keeping him around a while longer would've required walking back a bunch of that character development. It was better to allow the character to go out on its own terms, facing the only real challenge it had ever known over the course of its life. All things end eventually, but very few are able to go out in such a magnificent blaze of glory. -
11-11-2023, 12:46 PMrainichan
I agree and disagree with points; while I get they wanted to get the whole Hydaelyn/Zodiarc arc done and be done with the Garleans as antagonists so they hacked what would have been 6.0 into a 3rd of the story and put it into Endwalker to end that story point... it did do a disservice to some things, and I do agree that it feels like there should have been more to him between that and what was in Endwalker. However, it truly is the duality of life: people will try to live life as fulfilling as possible, and some will feel like it has been, others will feel like they wanted to do more at the end of it all. Someone who perhaps gets to travel the world and see life in more places than just their hometown may find that, while they still wanted to see more they had seen enough and felt fulfilled. Others who get to do the same may feel like they wanted to more stay in one place to really feel like they've lived a life, not just a life out of suitcases.
His disappointment could be from many things, including "I won't live to duel you again like I want as you become more powerful" and the fact that, perhaps as a sheltered kid who only got a thrill out of combat (which is, in fact, in his short story in the short story book) he wanted to see if there was more to life that could get him to care more about it. Seeing the WoL destroy nihilism itself was probably the peak of that happening. Once it was over, that was it. He got his final duel, truly wished he could have done more, and was the "I don't want to live in suitcases" side of living life to our "I want to see every corner of the globe before I die." Life was fulfilled for him at that moment, but he wanted more and could not have.
Telling Meteion that yes, life is worth living is still true. How fulfilling you find your own life is on you. Maybe your purpose and what you find enough is just being alive to take care of cats. Maybe it's to have a big garden. You may want more. You may not.
That's just how life actually is. -
11-12-2023, 01:11 AMYuella
Zenos sucks, and the fight at the end of Endwalker wasn't earned. They should've given us a choice to say "screw you! I'm leaving" and not entertain his childish act.
-
11-12-2023, 02:18 AMEisiI agree with this. But then again the reason he didn't kill any of our friends is so that it wouldn't ruin the hype of this final duel. So the duel is kinda the consolation prize for the story being shit - you kinda have to take it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuella
-
11-12-2023, 07:44 AMRarakaThere was a thing you could click to leave the instanceQuote:
Originally Posted by Yuella
So I did, to then learn the fight was mandatory to finish MSQ
I hate the illusion of choise -
11-12-2023, 08:03 AMClereticIt would've been interesting, especially to test the character growth he says he's gone through, but I don't know if it would've been good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuella
My read is that I don't think Zenos actually understands us as much as he thinks he does in that moment. He's made progress, but if you pick any dialog options that aren't hell yes I love to fight' he denies you; I don't think he would've taken no for an answer there. In that case, it probably would've been smarter to just not have the false choice in the first place; we probably would've been madder if we got the option to leave and then got But Thou Must-ed, than if we just didn't have one.
EDIT: Also he's kind of a murderous psychopath and our character knows that, so they probably realized 'okay I have to stop him here and now or else he's going to come back angry and bloodthirsty'. Could've used stating that louder if that was the intention, though. -
11-12-2023, 08:59 AMDreadCrow
You're under the implication that Zenos actually grew as a person. I don't really feel that's the case. Sure, he decided that he was going to help us stop the apocalypse, but it wasn't out of any love for the world. It's was because the apocalypse was more important to use than he was, so he wanted to remove that from the equation. He is to the Warrior of Light, what Joker is to the Batman; if he does something seemingly good, it's because has his own agenda. Remember; Zenos was willing to enslave to the world to imaginary gods, jumpstart the end of the world, allowed his own kingdom to be consumed with civil war, and tried to kill our friends in our own body just so we would pay attention to him. He would never find redemption because he enjoyed being the monsters.
-
11-12-2023, 09:01 AMDreadCrowI actually feel that's a very good message, all things considered. I've know people in real life who were victims of isolation and trauma but used their past as an excuse to be toxic and manipulative to other people. They would willingly, even eagerly, continue the cycle of abuse and kept you locked in it because they preyed upon your own insecurities. When you finally broke free from them, you absolutely felt pity because it wasn't entirely their fault for being the way they were... But you'd still warn others to not get involved with them because their response to pain was to hurt other people and used shared trauma to keep people under their spell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunaxia
Sad hurt people can sometimes just need love. But other times sad hurt people just want to hurt other people and refuse to actually accept any compassion given to them. It's tragic, sure, but that doesn't excuse their behavior. -
11-13-2023, 09:13 AMAneshda
Zenos had to die, so that we can have a Burger / Tacco eating scene in the next Expansion. Right now I don't feel Dawntrail. My Hype lays between 0-1% after I saw Las Vegas & London Fanfest Videos + both Trailers.
The Story will be boring since Yoshi said it will be a single Expansion. New Job looks boring, the new Places feels boring. I don't care about the Mamool Ja or their King whatever. We will be with the same 0815 boring Scions ... except Krile joins us and I can't stand her, same for the Twins and Graha Tia. The rest will be like always, New Dungeons, Raids, Gear, Tribes. The new Frontline Map will be Borderland Ruins with the same Playstyle like the 2000 Points Map, which is no longer PvP, more like camp at Crystals and get Points, the moment a Team has 200 Points more as both other Teams it is Game over. -
11-13-2023, 04:18 PMKeseyMany in this forum like to go with the Zenos as foil explanation, but for the reason you state above, he isn't. The problem with foils is one of them has to realize they similar and then choose a different path.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuella
This means the WOL has to walk away from the fight with Zenos to expect any significant character change in themselves and spur the change in Zenos too. It was a wasted opportunity. Zenos should have just died in Stormblood. -
11-13-2023, 04:20 PMKeseyI believe Yoshi-p said in a press interview during Las Vegas Fanfest was the story is intended have a 3 expansion arc, but could go longer if the players really like the new story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aneshda
-
11-13-2023, 08:46 PMClereticI highly suspect Dawntrail will be similar to Heavensward: An standalone beginning-to-end story, that has some scene-setting for a greater story in the background.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kesey
That said, it's also a situation we've never really been in with FFXIV, because unlike Heavensward it's going to be setting up the longstanding stuff, rather than just carrying it on. It's a story likely without any of the longstanding 'arc villains/concepts' we've had in the game thus far, in fact; I can understand a bit of apprehension or lack of excitement. There's kind of a lot of things that are understatedly 'new' about Dawntrail that we've never really had before.
I hope Aneshda finds something that'll make them excited. And if Dawntrail doesn't provide it, I hope they can find it somewhere else, rather than locking themselves in a room with a game they don't like. -
11-13-2023, 09:31 PMCarin-EriThis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
I enjoyed how it all played out, personally. I'll admit, when I first played it I felt a little indifferent about fighting him again - particularly right after the Endsinger fight.
However, the way they approached/led into it sold it for me. For Zenos of all people to be the first person in a LONG time to address us as 'Adventurer' demonstrated that he understood what we always wanted to do rather than what we'd always had to do. -
11-14-2023, 06:31 AMAneshdaIn London he said it will be a single Expansion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kesey
-
11-17-2023, 01:44 AMKeichiHow can you even say yet, that the story will be boring? When it looks like, that you dont even give them a chance?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aneshda
Yeah ok. The start setting is very grounded. And it can be boring, to only take care of maybe a kingdom problem, when whe had faced a universe problem.
But, at last for me, is it ok.
Its the start of a Saga and a new story. Its likw to start new book Serie. It will be probally not so exiting at the start. And im not much a Fan of the lizard people. But whe dont know much yet. And should give it a try.
I even had the opinion, that i wanted for the next expantion a story, where you are back of beeing a normal advaneture and do little things again. And maybe step into a country wide problem.
Until, i replayed the beginning of ARR and noticed, that Arr was allready that, what i had in mind. And remembered, why Arr is stated to be the worst part of the story.
Where i aggree is with the Sion.
I hoped for a new group as companion. Because the story of the Sion is finished. And everyone wanted to do there own thing (Ysthola, write your book).
That whe have them again by us, is the only thing, i dislike yet in Dawnfall. -
11-17-2023, 02:08 AMMistakeNot
Zenos was batshit crazy with no redeeming features whatsoever. As villain that was as one-dimensional as they can get.
He didn't even have the good sense to *stay* dead after he killed himself in Stormblood. That would have been a fitting end for him, and his coming back after that didn't improve a single thing for anyone or for the story. -
11-17-2023, 05:23 AMAneshdaIt is not a new Saga or a new Story. Yoshi said at the last Fan Fest it will be a 1 time thing, a single Expansion and nothing more. What I saw in the Trailers and what Yoshi said, was boring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keichi
The Maps boring, the Mamool Ja super boring and what there King want .... i don't give a shit. I hate Krile, Graha Tia and a new beginning with them ... oh no thx.
After Endwalker they should have retired them all, so that we can find new Scions on our Way but no, we get the same old crap again. They killed Zenos, why not Krile and the Twins and Graha Tia too?
They are all the same ... 0815 Fanboys. I have enough promising Graha a Future with me and a new Adventure or how the Twins, Krile and Yshtola telling the WoL always what we already know and what the WoL should do ...
It feels like the WoL is a stupid idiot. And this was in the Expansions before not so bad like in Endwalker.
There is just nothing new, nothing exciting in Dawntrail.
I fear that Yoshi ruined the Game by killing all Foes, destroying Garlemald and removing nearly everything from the Ancients. The Twelve was the last piece of Mystery we had in Game. They should have stayed like that but nay Yoshi had to create a stupid Machine into the Story to that the world can pray to who ever ... lol. Just to get rid of this last old piece of the Game too. After that lame ending all hope was gone that the next Expansion will be any good. -
11-17-2023, 09:17 AMClereticThis is kind of speaking to another thing around Zenos, even putting aside that yes, it was a fitting end for him: he's a very limited character that's not actually universally beloved. He's probably the most polarizing character in the game in terms of comparative crowd size of lovers and haters.Quote:
Originally Posted by MistakeNot
With a character like that--especially a villain who sorta naturally forces himself center-stage--there are inevitable diminishing returns: you won't win over the crowd that dislike them, and there's only so much you can do to appeal to the crowd that likes them before you wear them out. Changing the character risks losing their fanbase to appeal to a crowd that might not even be interested in the appeal to them in the first place. It's the same reason why bringing Emet back would be a terrible idea: he can't keep up his shtick forever, and not everyone likes this shtick.
He needs to leave the story eventually, and... well, for someone like Zenos, there was only ever one way out of it. -
11-17-2023, 12:58 PMDreadCrowQuote:
Originally Posted by MistakeNot
I've never understood why this is a bad thing. It's not like a lot of people who do bad things in real life have deep, complex reasons. -
11-17-2023, 03:55 PMKeseyHere is the link to article. He answers about the intended arc of this new story in the answer to the second question. His phrasing will say two expansion packs, but he means Dawntrail plus 2 more expansions. He even mentions the story going longer if the players like the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aneshda
https://www.rpgfan.com/2023/07/29/yo...ss-conference/ -
11-17-2023, 06:40 PMClereticI think that it's an understated strength of FFXIV that they can write such strong 'simple' villains, that are just focused on one thing and that's it. If all you need out of a character is to be the villain of a specific story, sometimes the best angle is to just make a character that can do that one role really well and that's it. Nidhogg, Vauthry, Yotsuyu, even Meteion to a degree, basically every single job and raid quest antagonist fits the bill. Sometimes you don't need depth from a character, you just need a really good villain that you hate; sure, they can't do much else, but maybe they don't need to.Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadCrow
To a degree, Zenos in Endwalker shows the struggles of trying to make a focused character like that long-term, though. He's actually better suited than most to getting further stories, because ultimately his focus was us (imagine trying to write for Nidhogg in any other expansion and you get what I mean), but that doesn't really give him that much more to actually do, so much as more places to do it in. -
11-17-2023, 07:04 PMKeichiIt is the start of a new story, is, what i heared. Zodiac arc ended and a new story beginns. How long that will be is something, i dont know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aneshda
Where would even be the problem with a 1 expansion story? Wow did this until now.^^ And it was the same with all expansion until Shb+EW. Where Shb build up more for the things, happens in Ew. And even than gave it us mostly only backstorys. ARR to Shb had mostly 1 times storys, where it barely connected to anything else.
I dont know what you hoped for a new Expansion. But at last from the concept arts do i like the areas, where whe are going (ok, the maps are rarely that interessting ingame, but that lies mostly on the fact, that a mmo isnt the right game, for creating big, living maps, aside of wandering animal). And the base story is a grounded on. Ok, i dont care for them to. Because i dont know them. But, i give them at last a chance. I mean, all whe knowed about Ew was, that whe will fight zodiac. And yet, became whe a nice story that was more as simply zodiac (only downside was, that Zodiac wasnt the main enemy and, that whe never meet him, whe found only his body).
About the sion:
There wasnt a good moment to kill them (except, by endsinger). Krilie would maked only sense in stormblood. I allready sayed, that im to think, that whe should have new people now (let the sions showing up as guest chara for a short time).
Zenos maked sense to kill, for finishing his story. A peacefull life or the life of a mercenary didnt fit him. I only hoped, that he had a more meaningfull connection to Zero.
What i agree is to, that its questionable, that whe removed all old things from eozera (that whe know). I even feared, that whe would heal/destroy the World of darkness in this expansion and would remove the most common enemy for all people. The scenario i thinked would come for the next expansion was, that Zeronas would destroy the boundary of the worlds. And that whe would have to find a solution for that. And that whe maybe visit more of the World of darkness (a reverse isekai story, whe had isekai in shb, i had thinked, that whe would have now a story with more visitors of other world).
But what have whe now?
A new continent, where new myth and old things can exist (or maybe new things, why do whe need allways old dangerous things). Whe even have the name of 1 of that thing.
Good, its your opinion.
But the last thing you could do is at last, to give the expansion a chance. Its possible, that it can be nice. -
11-17-2023, 09:01 PMMistakeNotPerhaps they don't have complex reasons, but they usually have some kind of understandable and relatable reason, even if it is a bad reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadCrow
Even most of the bad villains in fiction manage to be two-dimensional cardboard cutouts, which is more than Zenos managed.